Paths of Civilization

BlueFlamingWings · Jun 11, 2017

Candesce said:
Hah.

I'd be entirely unsurprised if a caste system in the background reduced our hero generation, leaving us no better off. Many of our historic heroes came from places that wouldn't have been allowed to succeed, given a caste system.

And I wouldn't bet on it going away after cocking up, either - some traits are a lot more sticky than others, and I'd expect caste systems to be one of them.

Which is one of the reasons why it should be got rid of.

No one is arguing here that heredity doesn't have some monumental issues or that they can be easily overcome but that our civilization is still changing and not set in stone. Besides, people speak of heredity like it's something we don't already have and must be avoided at all costs but the front page (under Social Concepts) shows it's already here - the ruling elites, the warriors, and the merchants (luckily, shamans/priests positions are not hereditary, that may be a route of advancement that half-exiles have).

Random Shinobi · Jun 11, 2017

[X] [Value] Do not spread
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - South-Eastern Redhills

McLuvin · Jun 11, 2017

Umi-san said:
How would prestige let us keep a subordinate state if only us know about our grandeur

I wonder what the other civs are thinking hearing about our Megaproject completions so close together....

A Negaverse would be welcome

veekie · Jun 11, 2017

Umi-san said:
IIRC, they did hear about it. AN said something about how they heard we completed a megaproject, just like for the vast majority of our megaprojects there've been comments about people hearing we did a grand ritual/etc. And just like we got an announcement that the XS had completed the wall, that the HK had started the Law.

How would prestige let us keep a subordinate state if only us know about our grandeur?

Because Subordinate states ARE us. They consider themselves Ymaryn until the point they stop being a subordinate state. They are part of our internal news network and so Prestige is basically equivalent to "We should be proud to be Ymaryn!"

And I feel it's unlikely because that would mean that of our neighbors in contact, throughout the whole game....they've only built two megaprojects that we know of?

Candesce · Jun 11, 2017

Umi-san said:
IIRC, they did hear about it.

I recall something about the tales that various civilizations would tell about each other, but I can't find the quote.

I don't think there's an explicit "everyone hears about every megaproject" mechanic, but people do hear bits about even purely internal achievements.

BlueFlamingWings said:
No one is arguing here that heredity doesn't have some monumental issues or that they can be easily overcome but that our civilization is still changing and not set in stone.

Our civilization is built to be hit very hard by the disadvantages of Family First in any form. It is precisely because our civ is still changing that I want nothing to do with the trait - it changes our civ very much for the worse.

A reminder: Family First, for most civs, functions as Symphony and Divine Stewards in that it gives their people reason to work together and to plan for the long term. Compared to that, the costs don't mean much.

But we already have both of those bonuses, so Family First and descendants sabotage them.

DragonParadox · Jun 11, 2017

veekie said:
Because Subordinate states ARE us. They consider themselves Ymaryn until the point they stop being a subordinate state. They are part of our internal news network and so Prestige is basically equivalent to "We should be proud to be Ymaryn!"

Except that's just applicable for our situation. To give another example, the TH certainly are not the Xoh, nor the reverse.

Cpt. Bread · Jun 11, 2017

[X] [Value] Don't spread value
[X] [Main] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy: Balanced

Umi-san · Jun 11, 2017

McLuvin said:
I wonder what the other civs are thinking hearing about our Megaproject completions so close together....

A Negaverse would be welcome

Day One:
-AN: The hill elves have managed to dig a canal from one river to another.
-Guy 1: Don't they have stone tools like us? It must be a narrow canal.
-AN: Nope, it's big enough for three great canoes to pass at once, comfortably, and provides farmland in the otherwise rocky terrain.
-Guy 2: We need to get on their level.

Day Two:
-AN: The hill elves have managed to do another megaproject, which makes them really good at forest management.
-Guy 1: T-they're using stone tools. How large is this forest? It must be a week's travel in length, max.
-AN: Nope, it covers ~two months travel, square.
-Guy 2: Living the dream.

Day Three:
-AN: The hill elves have managed to do another megaproject, which gives them immunity to smallpox.
-Guy 1: *eye twitches* *fist convulses*
-AN: Yep, immunization 5 eons early.
-Guy 2: How nice.

Day Four:
-AN: The hill elves have managed to do another megaproject, which gives them written law.
-Guy 1: SO HOW ABOUT WE MAKE SOME MORE SETTLEMENTS
-AN: The hill elves don't need more settlements, due to their sanitation and farming skills.
-Guy 2: If only they'd come visit us more often.

Day Five:
-AN: The hill elves now have a giant temple.

Day Six:
-AN: The hill elves now have a library.

Day Seven:
-AN: The hill elves now have a palace.

Day Eight:
-AN: The hill elves have invented the Olympics and are inviting the nomads to it.

Day Nine:
-AN: The hill elves have invented the observatory using their highly developed glass skills.

Day Ten:
-AN: The hill elves have built a pile of rocks. It serves no purpose other than showing how great they are.
-Guy 1: I'm tired of this quest.

Academia Nut · Jun 11, 2017

hylas240 said:
What does our martial hero think we should do to best prepare for the return of the horde? What about preparing for the Hathatyn war?

Recruit dudes to fight... which currently means making more farms, he supposes.

Citino said:
since we finished the megaproject last turn, shouldn't we get a free policy change?

No, you could start a new megaproject this turn, so it won't switch until it has nothing to actually work on.

Glassware said:
if the provinces go into Progress, but cannot take Main Study actions as we don't have enough econ, will they take all secondaries or take Expand Econ?

They would figure out the best distribution of actions with the resources they have available.

hylas240 said:
do the libraries we build trigger the canal bonus?

No, they're not particularly impressive engineering feats. They're organizational feats.

ctulhuslp said:
would sending Salt Gift to Metal Workers help them recover?
Would sending it to Highlanders help them in their war?

No for either, the Salt Gift is all about prestige and wealth. I mean, it might help a bit in terms of food preservation, but it wouldn't be militarily significant.

notgreat said:
When we do Restore Order + Proclaim Glory, do we have to do an admin roll to ensure proper ordering or is it automatic?

Ehhh... it would fall under general admin stuff, but generally wouldn't be that cruel unless everything blew up.

Lailoken said:
Trade mission to the Highlanders specifying weapons might make a major difference right now. Mass iron weapons could stalemate the whole Lowlands without giving up our monopoly.

@Academia Nut : is that an option?

Hmmmm... a Main Trade Mission could do that, yeah.

hylas240 said:
Will the Census mega project help mitigate the cons of Ancestral Deeds?

It would almost certainly magnify them.

ctulhuslp said:
can we, thanks to the note on temple studying the difference, have more detailed description of the trait, how it influences their society, and so on?

The trait makes tracking your lineage super important for the Stallion Tribes. Calling someone a bastard is fighting words there, where in the south it tends to be significantly more mild. While performing your own deeds is quite important, people who can't point to ancestors and relatives with significant deeds of their own - especially death deeds - are considered less trustworthy, because obviously they must be hiding the ill deeds of their ancestors, or they have such poor parents that they gave them no heritage to have pride in.

NotAlwaysFanfic said:
if we leave the policy switch to the midturn, is there likely to be social unrest, upheaval, etc as a result, such that our advisors feel it would better to make it an official switch, instead of a midturn event?

Not particularly.

Umi-san said:
You think the refund is the one from the main library, rather than referring to the completion bonus?

@Academia Nut plz

You cannot be refunded more than you spend, and yes, the next refund level is at 3 libraries.

jamie96969 · Jun 11, 2017

[X] [Value] Do not spread

Academia Nut · Jun 11, 2017

veekie said:
Because Subordinate states ARE us. They consider themselves Ymaryn until the point they stop being a subordinate state. They are part of our internal news network and so Prestige is basically equivalent to "We should be proud to be Ymaryn!"

Slight clarification. Subordinate states include vassals, while periphery states are the ones that are you but on the edges of administrative range and thus can have some cultural divergence and have to be more self sufficient.

Also, you are probably going to develop a new kind of subordinate this turn, and are one main action away from discovering a new kind.

DragonParadox · Jun 11, 2017

Well the GM has settled things it seems, not only would the ST value magnify social inequality, but also gender inequality.

In conclusion: kill it with fire and scatter the ashes.

McLuvin · Jun 11, 2017

Umi-san said:
Day One:
-AN: The hill elves have managed to dig a canal from one river to another.
-Guy 1: Don't they have stone tools like us? It must be a narrow canal.
-AN: Nope, it's big enough for three great canoes to pass at once, comfortably, and provides farmland in the otherwise rocky terrain.
-Guy 2: We need to get on their level.

Day Two:
-AN: The hill elves have managed to do another megaproject, which makes them really good at forest management.
-Guy 1: T-they're using stone tools. How large is this forest? It must be a week's travel in length, max.
-AN: Nope, it covers ~two months travel, square.
-Guy 2: Living the dream.

Day Three:
-AN: The hill elves have managed to do another megaproject, which gives them immunity to smallpox.
-Guy 1: *eye twitches* *fist convulses*
-AN: Yep, immunization 5 eons early.
-Guy 2: How nice.

Day Four:
-AN: The hill elves have managed to do another megaproject, which gives them written law.
-Guy 1: SO HOW ABOUT WE MAKE SOME MORE SETTLEMENTS
-AN: The hill elves don't need more settlements, due to their sanitation and farming skills.
-Guy 2: If only they'd come visit us more often.

Day Five:
-AN: The hill elves now have a giant temple.

Day Six:
-AN: The hill elves now have a library.

Day Seven:
-AN: The hill elves now have a palace.

Day Eight:
-AN: The hill elves have invented the Olympics and are inviting the nomads to it.

Day Nine:
-AN: The hill elves have invented the observatory using their highly developed glass skills.

Day Ten:
-AN: The hill elves have built a pile of rocks. It serves no purpose other than showing how great they are.
-Guy 1: I'm tired of this quest.

Perfect thank you

Abby Normal · Jun 11, 2017

veekie said:
Look at every single hero we've had so far, only one of them emerged from a traditional noble family at all.

Wait what? I'm pretty sure both of our last heroes came from the normal chief lines?

Academia Nut said:
a chief's son who had been assisting with a project got out the product of that work from storage.

Standing atop a building where he could be seen while friends wafted the smoke from burning coals into the crowd, Gonwyllmyn

Academia Nut said:
the young chief from the Stallion Tribes who had held the nomads at bay had been selected as the man for the job.

Before that...
Gwygoytha was "Gwygoytha, daughter of a young freeman tempted by the allure of the caravans who then fell in love with the sea - and a woman by the sea"
Bynwyn was a shaman
Twythulmyn was a merchant; so still part of a hereditary system, but not the chief/semi-noble lines.
Cwriid was definitely not from a chief's line...
though his son Patrwyn obviously was

Likewise, Magwyna was an artisan
But her son whose name i forget was from a noble line, just a new one

...Did i forget any heroes?
But yeah, depending on how you count, either 2 heroes, or 4 if you count the two sons of heroes, were from noble lines

And with AN's clarifications:
[X] [Value] Do not spread
[X] [Main] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy: Balanced

Academia Nut said:
Also, you are probably going to develop a new kind of subordinate this turn, and are one main action away from discovering a new kind.

..."discover" as in new to us, or new in general? Because "vassal" is new to us but not to the world, and if so then...main trade mission to the MW?

Doomed Wombat · Jun 11, 2017

Question, how are we doing in terms of tech compared to our neighbours?

McLuvin · Jun 11, 2017

Abby Normal said:
Did i forget any heroes

Gynwillyman, the recent Diplo/Admin hero

UbeOne · Jun 11, 2017

[X] [Value] Do not spread

It's not worth the extra heroes.

Glassware · Jun 11, 2017

veekie said:
Look at every single hero we've had so far, only one of them emerged from a traditional noble family at all.

Actually, our latest hero seems to have been a Stallion chief. Likely a direct descendant of Crwid and

Academia Nut said:
The trait makes tracking your lineage super important for the Stallion Tribes. Calling someone a bastard is fighting words there, where in the south it tends to be significantly more mild. While performing your own deeds is quite important, people who can't point to ancestors and relatives with significant deeds of their own - especially death deeds - are considered less trustworthy, because obviously they must be hiding the ill deeds of their ancestors, or they have such poor parents that they gave them no heritage to have pride in.

Ick. That's a definite no.

[X] [Value] Do not spread
[X] [Main] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy: Balanced

Citino · Jun 11, 2017

[X] [Value] Do not spread
[X] [Main] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy: Balanced

Abby Normal · Jun 11, 2017

McLuvin said:
Gynwillyman, the recent Diplo/Admin hero

Unless we had two very similarly named heroes, i mentioned Gonwyllmyn in my post, he's one of the "last two" heroes that got quotes

Academia Nut · Jun 11, 2017

Abby Normal said:
..."discover" as in new to us, or new in general? Because "vassal" is new to us but not to the world, and if so then...main trade mission to the MW?

Oh, vassal has always been there, you've just never punched in the faces of anyone sedentary and made them cry for terms.

And both would be new in general, not just for you.

Alex pears said:
Question, how are we doing in terms of tech compared to our neighbours?

Mostly ahead, but schizophrenic in a few places.

Candesce · Jun 11, 2017

Abby Normal said:
But yeah, depending on how you count, either 2 heroes, or 4 if you count the two sons of heroes, were from noble lines

Well, counting heroes from hereditary lines that wouldn't exist in the context of Ancestral Deeds is probably a bit much.

Cwriid probably still makes it in, so his son does as well, but Magwyna's son shouldn't; he wouldn't have been in a place to ever take power, because Ancestral Deeds stomps on Magwyna ever taking power.

Athas · Jun 11, 2017

[X] [Value] Do not spread

McLuvin · Jun 11, 2017

Abby Normal said:
Unless we had two very similarly named heroes, i mentioned Gonwyllmyn in my post, he's one of the "last two" heroes that got quotes

My mistake.

Also fuck Welsh style naming, Crow and Fythagyna are the only ones I can reliably spell

Chrestomanci · Jun 11, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Calling someone a bastard is fighting words there, where in the south it tends to be significantly more mild. While performing your own deeds is quite important, people who can't point to ancestors and relatives with significant deeds of their own - especially death deeds - are considered less trustworthy, because obviously they must be hiding the ill deeds of their ancestors, or they have such poor parents that they gave them no heritage to have pride in.

switching vote

[X] [Value] Do not spread
[X] [Main] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - south-eastern Redhills

I think we should take The Census but it doesn't seem to have a chance. Does anyone has an idea what the main action needed for a new kind of subordinate?

Academia Nut said: ↑
Also, you are probably going to develop a new kind of subordinate this turn, and are one main action away from discovering a new kind.

Paths of Civilization

Procrastinating.

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Let's go Darling!

Daydreaming CPU

High Clerk of the Ymaryn