But I don't want to deal with not-malaria.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Guile
Having a really great time right now
They actually like rich passive nations like us a lot. Soft targets to blood their warriors on, nice things to steal.
Except for that one time when their heroic warleaders crit-raided us and we boiled up out of the forests like a plague of murder-locusts to (what I'm sure they thought was) mutual destruction.
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I am pretty sure that sedentary civilizations are hard to conquer in the first place.
It's about the system that maintain the rainforest to be hospitable to humans, enabling humans to live in the rainforest in truly large numbers.
The Amazon Rainforest was actively managed and maintained by human hands for at least 11,000 years, including the production of Terra Petra.
Ecological engineering and maintenance is something almost entirely unique to the Ymaryn. We engineered wetlands to filter our waste, enriched soils, and grew entire forests on the steppes. We diverted water sources to create entire gardens.
The forests are beside the point. The people of the Not!Amazon Rainforest gets what the Ymaryn do.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We'd be tree bros.
Initial Experimental Results
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Improve Annual Festival (-2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art chance for additional effects)
[X] Breed it
[X] Build boats to counter them (-2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects)
[X] Yes (Trade step farming for chinampas)
Always interested in new farming techniques, the king immediately said yes to the proposal from the Xohyssiri and got the Farming Chief in contact with the workers they sent. In exchange for teaching the lowlanders more about how to control water and soil on hills - you really had to know what you were doing before you tried to do terracing or you might cause hill collapse - the Xohyssiri taught them about how they had been getting more out of their land.
Since they got little rain outside of the rainy season, they had to carefully shepherd the water they did get, using a series of irrigation canals and reservoirs similar to how the People did it in Valleyhome, just moreso. However, after the Thunder Horse had vassalized them and stripped them of most of their tributary states and territory Xohyr had faced some serious problems with this system, which was that it took up too much room for what they had available. They needed the space both for farming and for water storage, and somewhere along the line they had figured out how to extend the shore of the small and semi-seasonal lake near their home via dredging and waste disposal to produce material to dump into staked out sections that they could grow crops on. As the practice grew and became more complex they had realized somewhere along the line that the water in the lake was staying around longer and the practice had expanded.
While to a large degree this new method wasn't that much use for the People, there were definitely some places where it might be of benefit, especially in some of the lakes and sloughs along the course of rivers in the steppes. If any major reservoir work were ever done it would also be of considerable benefit to have this technique on hand to improve the utilization of the water. Also, the People were always happy to have improved agricultural techniques.
The knowledge was set to be distributed out to the People along with orders to expand the planting festival to better help distribute the knowledge and better assure the People that the king was in fact keeping their interests at heart even as they tiptoed into dangerous waters with the tests of metal safety. All of this together meant that the People were in fact strangely accepting of the plans to begin in-depth and widespread study of metal once more, as well as cracking open the tailings pits where the waste of mining was disposed of. To a large degree they understood that the king could not make a ruling on what was dangerous or not without actually understanding it fully. The new order for boats may have helped out, as this was the first major expansion of their number since the introduction of iron, and while there had been small scale replacements the new tools and techniques revealed many new things, although for the most part the knowledge probably had to cook in the minds of the craftsmen for another generation or two.
The decision not to sacrifice the white calf right away but to instead breed it first brought... ambiguous portents, although there was no great disaster from the refusal, there was no grand turn around either to show approval. In any case, once an appropriate number of white or white-enough offspring were had the animal and one of the better one of its descendants were returned to the spirits.
Also, the surveyors rather confusingly got into a fight over whether or not they had discovered gypsum or not. Apparently the term the original surveyors had used had been more ambiguous but someone else had decided that they meant gypsum, but it was a different soft, semi-transparent white stone shot through with grey nodules. Whatever. Some of the nodules were brought in for study along with the other metals they were going to be looking at.
[X] [Main] Study Metal
[X] [Main] Study Tailings
Provinces – [Main] Study Health, [Main] Expand Econ, [Sec] Study Stars
Stallion Tribes – [Main] War Mission – Western Nomads, [Main] Build Chariots
Western Wall – [Main] War Mission – Western Nomads, [Main] Build Chariots
So the good news was that the People had figured out pretty well that whatever curses were in metal and their residues, they could not be spread like with disease.
The bad news was that after opening up the oldest sealed tailings pit, they had discovered that the remains were super poisonous. They found rotten stone, and while the glazed tiles had held up well pretty much everything else that got wet in that deadly rotten egg stinking pit had been corroded and transformed if it got even a little water on it. The People had already been careful to make sure that these pits shouldn't be able to drain into drinking water, but the damage inflicted really drove it home. They would definitely have to increase the standards for these things... although there were also intriguing possibilities for the use of some of the strange materials found within, and among the slag heaps of the iron smelters.
Also, the grey nodules? Definitely contained lead and silver, and pretty much everything except the silver was rather terrifyingly toxic. While the examination of sacrificial animals revealed that even invisible fumes could be toxic, something that confirmed suspicions about some of the workers and prompted further examinations on how to contain it, it also continued to confirm the idea that all of the toxins of the metal were not self spreading like with disease. Someone poisoned from working with any of these things was of no risk of spreading their injuries to others the way someone with a plague or pox was. Thus any widespread curses for the digging up of metal had to come from the gods and not the metal itself... and honestly things hadn't been too bad. The elders said that the weather used to be better, and records suggested that there had been fewer failed harvests and fuller granaries in the past, but nothing was on fire.
Although when representatives from the Stallions and the Wall frog marched nomad chiefs into the council chambers, the king had to mentally add on 'Yet'.
Through a combination of new chariot design, faster horses, and an abundance of iron weaponry, the two most imperiled provinces had smashed several tribes attempting to move into areas adjacent to their territory, and were currently cowing the survivors into submission. The tribes would be resettled somewhere away from where they had originally been to minimize the trouble they could get into, probably either the Stallion Tribes or Northshore and Stonepen. While the king was perhaps a bit ill-at-ease over the glee with which the warriors resorted to violence, it did bring in important information, such as the fact that the new kingdom forming out of ex-nomads who were slowly absorbing/being absorbed by the metal workers was rounding up other tribes from the distant west and north-west, quite possibly in preparation to have another go at the People. It was certainly something to keep an eye on, especially since apparently the Thunder Horse were doing something similar - if to less stable results - in the east, if the trade from the Xohyssiri was in any way accurate.
With the Xohyssiri and the Thunder Speakers apparently embracing new, less violent - for now - roles and the Highlanders and the Thunder Horse both apparently gathering strength, an explosion of violence in the lowlands seemed once more inevitable... making it somewhat fortunate that the People were only vaguely allied with the Highlanders. Like, the Highlanders had some relatives among the nobility who they could use as contacts to ask the king for assistance, and they had enough trade contact with them to make it within the People's interests, but there were no great compelling reasons to actually join in if they were, say busy kicking in the teeth of some nomad bastards.
Diplomatic moves?
[] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)
[] Stay at home, garden (Main Expand Econ)
Settlement of conquered nomads
[] Stallion Tribes
[] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
However, soon after that little bit of drama, the argument that had begun the better part of a lifetime ago began to boil over. The People now had evidence that metal in of itself could not bring widespread calamity, and that more care was needed when it came to accepting a belief. However, this idea was also catalyzing even more radical ideas, ideas that had the potential to rattle the very foundations of the People's society. If a widely held belief like metal being the cursed Weapons of the Gods could be wrong, what else might require re-examination?
One step further?
[] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
[] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Forest (???)
[] This is a step too far (Challenge continues one last turn)
[] Suppress this new movement (+1 Stability, WotG removed, Challenge failed)
AN: Because you'll ask, if you go one more turn, the final requirement will be listed as ???
Also, yes, I am currently putting on my best evil overlord laugh. How much will you risk here? Mwahahahahahaha!
[X] Breed it
[X] Build boats to counter them (-2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects)
[X] Yes (Trade step farming for chinampas)
Always interested in new farming techniques, the king immediately said yes to the proposal from the Xohyssiri and got the Farming Chief in contact with the workers they sent. In exchange for teaching the lowlanders more about how to control water and soil on hills - you really had to know what you were doing before you tried to do terracing or you might cause hill collapse - the Xohyssiri taught them about how they had been getting more out of their land.
Since they got little rain outside of the rainy season, they had to carefully shepherd the water they did get, using a series of irrigation canals and reservoirs similar to how the People did it in Valleyhome, just moreso. However, after the Thunder Horse had vassalized them and stripped them of most of their tributary states and territory Xohyr had faced some serious problems with this system, which was that it took up too much room for what they had available. They needed the space both for farming and for water storage, and somewhere along the line they had figured out how to extend the shore of the small and semi-seasonal lake near their home via dredging and waste disposal to produce material to dump into staked out sections that they could grow crops on. As the practice grew and became more complex they had realized somewhere along the line that the water in the lake was staying around longer and the practice had expanded.
While to a large degree this new method wasn't that much use for the People, there were definitely some places where it might be of benefit, especially in some of the lakes and sloughs along the course of rivers in the steppes. If any major reservoir work were ever done it would also be of considerable benefit to have this technique on hand to improve the utilization of the water. Also, the People were always happy to have improved agricultural techniques.
The knowledge was set to be distributed out to the People along with orders to expand the planting festival to better help distribute the knowledge and better assure the People that the king was in fact keeping their interests at heart even as they tiptoed into dangerous waters with the tests of metal safety. All of this together meant that the People were in fact strangely accepting of the plans to begin in-depth and widespread study of metal once more, as well as cracking open the tailings pits where the waste of mining was disposed of. To a large degree they understood that the king could not make a ruling on what was dangerous or not without actually understanding it fully. The new order for boats may have helped out, as this was the first major expansion of their number since the introduction of iron, and while there had been small scale replacements the new tools and techniques revealed many new things, although for the most part the knowledge probably had to cook in the minds of the craftsmen for another generation or two.
The decision not to sacrifice the white calf right away but to instead breed it first brought... ambiguous portents, although there was no great disaster from the refusal, there was no grand turn around either to show approval. In any case, once an appropriate number of white or white-enough offspring were had the animal and one of the better one of its descendants were returned to the spirits.
Also, the surveyors rather confusingly got into a fight over whether or not they had discovered gypsum or not. Apparently the term the original surveyors had used had been more ambiguous but someone else had decided that they meant gypsum, but it was a different soft, semi-transparent white stone shot through with grey nodules. Whatever. Some of the nodules were brought in for study along with the other metals they were going to be looking at.
[X] [Main] Study Metal
[X] [Main] Study Tailings
Provinces – [Main] Study Health, [Main] Expand Econ, [Sec] Study Stars
Stallion Tribes – [Main] War Mission – Western Nomads, [Main] Build Chariots
Western Wall – [Main] War Mission – Western Nomads, [Main] Build Chariots
So the good news was that the People had figured out pretty well that whatever curses were in metal and their residues, they could not be spread like with disease.
The bad news was that after opening up the oldest sealed tailings pit, they had discovered that the remains were super poisonous. They found rotten stone, and while the glazed tiles had held up well pretty much everything else that got wet in that deadly rotten egg stinking pit had been corroded and transformed if it got even a little water on it. The People had already been careful to make sure that these pits shouldn't be able to drain into drinking water, but the damage inflicted really drove it home. They would definitely have to increase the standards for these things... although there were also intriguing possibilities for the use of some of the strange materials found within, and among the slag heaps of the iron smelters.
Also, the grey nodules? Definitely contained lead and silver, and pretty much everything except the silver was rather terrifyingly toxic. While the examination of sacrificial animals revealed that even invisible fumes could be toxic, something that confirmed suspicions about some of the workers and prompted further examinations on how to contain it, it also continued to confirm the idea that all of the toxins of the metal were not self spreading like with disease. Someone poisoned from working with any of these things was of no risk of spreading their injuries to others the way someone with a plague or pox was. Thus any widespread curses for the digging up of metal had to come from the gods and not the metal itself... and honestly things hadn't been too bad. The elders said that the weather used to be better, and records suggested that there had been fewer failed harvests and fuller granaries in the past, but nothing was on fire.
Although when representatives from the Stallions and the Wall frog marched nomad chiefs into the council chambers, the king had to mentally add on 'Yet'.
Through a combination of new chariot design, faster horses, and an abundance of iron weaponry, the two most imperiled provinces had smashed several tribes attempting to move into areas adjacent to their territory, and were currently cowing the survivors into submission. The tribes would be resettled somewhere away from where they had originally been to minimize the trouble they could get into, probably either the Stallion Tribes or Northshore and Stonepen. While the king was perhaps a bit ill-at-ease over the glee with which the warriors resorted to violence, it did bring in important information, such as the fact that the new kingdom forming out of ex-nomads who were slowly absorbing/being absorbed by the metal workers was rounding up other tribes from the distant west and north-west, quite possibly in preparation to have another go at the People. It was certainly something to keep an eye on, especially since apparently the Thunder Horse were doing something similar - if to less stable results - in the east, if the trade from the Xohyssiri was in any way accurate.
With the Xohyssiri and the Thunder Speakers apparently embracing new, less violent - for now - roles and the Highlanders and the Thunder Horse both apparently gathering strength, an explosion of violence in the lowlands seemed once more inevitable... making it somewhat fortunate that the People were only vaguely allied with the Highlanders. Like, the Highlanders had some relatives among the nobility who they could use as contacts to ask the king for assistance, and they had enough trade contact with them to make it within the People's interests, but there were no great compelling reasons to actually join in if they were, say busy kicking in the teeth of some nomad bastards.
Diplomatic moves?
[] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)
[] Stay at home, garden (Main Expand Econ)
Settlement of conquered nomads
[] Stallion Tribes
[] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
However, soon after that little bit of drama, the argument that had begun the better part of a lifetime ago began to boil over. The People now had evidence that metal in of itself could not bring widespread calamity, and that more care was needed when it came to accepting a belief. However, this idea was also catalyzing even more radical ideas, ideas that had the potential to rattle the very foundations of the People's society. If a widely held belief like metal being the cursed Weapons of the Gods could be wrong, what else might require re-examination?
One step further?
[] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
[] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Forest (???)
[] This is a step too far (Challenge continues one last turn)
[] Suppress this new movement (+1 Stability, WotG removed, Challenge failed)
AN: Because you'll ask, if you go one more turn, the final requirement will be listed as ???
Also, yes, I am currently putting on my best evil overlord laugh. How much will you risk here? Mwahahahahahaha!
- Location
- United States
Our provinces really are the best.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Hmmm, the questioning could ruin the benefits of either
We HAVE to avoid the Sacred Forest here, because it functions on pure belief at this point, While it gives tangible benefits, much of it is based purely on belief
We HAVE to avoid the Sacred Forest here, because it functions on pure belief at this point, While it gives tangible benefits, much of it is based purely on belief
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh, sweet, more stability. That'll put us up to 3, in case anyone was wondering.
EDIT: Actually, I'm pretty sure we have the ingredients for a Golden Age right here. Four Econ would put us into overflow.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We managed to gain a stability point, guys?
I dislike being mean to nomads who hadn't done anything yet, but what can you do?
[X] Stay at home, garden (Main Expand Econ)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] This is a step too far (Challenge continues one last turn)
I dislike being mean to nomads who hadn't done anything yet, but what can you do?
[X] Stay at home, garden (Main Expand Econ)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] This is a step too far (Challenge continues one last turn)
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X] Stay at home, garden (Main Expand Econ)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] This is a step too far (Challenge continues one last turn)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] This is a step too far (Challenge continues one last turn)
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
[] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Forest (???)
Maybe?
Anyone think we can predict the next turn if we go that way?
[] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Forest (???)
Maybe?
Anyone think we can predict the next turn if we go that way?
- Location
- From the moon
[X] This is a step too far (Challenge continues one last turn)
Yet* that is the word we must use. It is obvious that we will get some hint. Otherwise it would be a little too unfair.
- Location
- United States
Don't worry. Give them enough time and they'll always try to raid us. They're nomads. It's what they're hardwired for in their lifestyle.
- Location
- Australia
I like these two options.
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
Diplomacy 14 (max, overflowing) [+1]
Economy 10
Martial 11 {14} (partial limit)
Stability
Stability 2 (encouraged)
Legitimacy 3 (max)
Organizational
Centralization 2
Hierarchy 6
Cultural
Art 11
Mysticism 2
Prestige 9
Looks like challenging Sacred Forest will probably weaken the whole Stewards part of Divine Stewards, am unsure of Sacred Warding.
Definitely would evolve Observance tho
Economy 10
Martial 11 {14} (partial limit)
Stability
Stability 2 (encouraged)
Legitimacy 3 (max)
Organizational
Centralization 2
Hierarchy 6
Cultural
Art 11
Mysticism 2
Prestige 9
Looks like challenging Sacred Forest will probably weaken the whole Stewards part of Divine Stewards, am unsure of Sacred Warding.
Definitely would evolve Observance tho
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
No, we have two outs which are basically guaranteed to evolve observance. Which was the goal, after all.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Challenging Sacred Warding is a bad idea since unless smallpox appears right this turn no effects will be seen, so we'll just lose it.
Would it be bad if we challenged Sacred Forests? It's correct as far as we know, but we might find an improvement - in which case we might get something along the lines of "always be looking for improvements"
Would it be bad if we challenged Sacred Forests? It's correct as far as we know, but we might find an improvement - in which case we might get something along the lines of "always be looking for improvements"
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Note that challenging the validity of either could strengthen them by providing fresh empirical evidence of their necessity... but I'm not telling you what the odds are here. As far as the leadership is concerned, this is a blind roll of the dice.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Honestly, I think challenging Sacred Warding might work out the best, because Sacred Warding is actually, y'know, based on Bynwyn's frankly solid reasoning. Experimental testing of Sacred Warding will verify that in fact if you don't keep it up you will get smallpox and die.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Kind of what I'm thinking. The blight is real and observable. Turning a critical eye to our management of it might not be a bad thing.