- Location
- Yes.
[X] Action Plan: Team Uplift Invents Everything and Saves The World Forever
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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Can’t say. I know my momentum.
Uh oh, AFAIR the last time the QMs wrote whatever they wanted to we ended up with Akatsuki being at O'zu (and also the rift, and also being favored by Jashin... uh, maybe we should let them write whatever...).
If we're doubling back, I do want to go check out Crimson State Island.
- Location
- Can’t say. I know my momentum.
[X] Action Plan: @eaglejarl writes whatever he wants (again)
(Please be like O'zu, please be like O'zu, wait, can we get another rift?)
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Snowflake's unique condition has two effects. 1) she doesn't have the Frozen Skein whereas Kei does. This guarantees them a metric ton of instant divergence. 2) Snowflake's memories are preserved independently, meaing she has continuity of identity rather than each Snowflake being a fresh divergent Kei clone.
In regard to 1, Snowflake is in no way different from any other shadow clone. Thus, any clone could accumulate sufficient divergence if it lasted long enough and/or had whatever experiences might cause a shadow clone's personality to diverge quickly (anything that gives TYS points probably qualifies). An ordinary shadow clone's divergence is different from Snowflake's in degree rather than nature.
2 guarantees that the next Snowflake inherits the previous Snowflake's memories, granting her a kind of immortality, and prevents full integration back into Kei. If this did not happen, Snowflake would fully cease to exist upon being dispelled, leaving behind only a Kei with memories of having "been" a divergent shadow clone. A new Snowflake would not have any meaningful continuity of identity with the previous one.
With this in mind, could an ordinary shadow clone become a Snowlake lite, and would it be meaningful to say that it died when it was dispelled?
What an un-hivemindly attitude.
- Location
- Can’t say. I know my momentum.
Wait, did Hazo's shadow clones have SSA? Do they now have DoB?
- Location
- Yes.
IIRC they did, and they should.
- Location
- Can’t say. I know my momentum.
Because it's a cognitive thing and not a bloodline?
ROTP got their locations wrong, Naruto is sending his hunters to the Southern Isles (AKA CSI) first and Iron/Snow (AKA Gaikotsu Bay) second. Now is not the time to go visit CSI. That would be about 3 months from now
- Location
- United States
Interesting. I'll have to keep that in mind.
- Location
- Can’t say. I know my momentum.
Whoops, I got the Bay confused with the Kanashii Ocean. But ROTP was suggesting going to Neck first, then going somewhere else where Leaf already searched. When the time to loop back comes, I'm voting CSI. I agree that we're not going anywhere in that area right now.
Also, if we get Nobs, why do would we want to go to the cave in Wind?
I think that we should consider going to either Marsh's capital or Kanmuri. We might be able to use these assets to find out how the hunt for us is going. I'd guess that of the two, Kanmuri is slightly less safe, unless Marsh is close enough to fall under the "near parts of the Eastern Continent" that Akatsuki's spy network is good in.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think a far more compelling argument from Hazou is that he chooses to identify with the greater superset of Hazou-isomorphic beings that coexist in parallel with him instead of being tied down to any one particular instance of a Hazou.
In essence: it's all the same Hazou as far as the Hazous are concerned.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean, the Frozen Skein specifically is a unique kind of divergence no other clone is going to have, but if you view it in terms of how much Snowflake diverges from Kei, that's a finite number that another clone could theoretically approach by stacking other kinds of divergence.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Actually, if it's about Ami, I'd suggest asking Kei about the relevant Schelling point instead. CSI might not actually be the best place.
- Location
- Can’t say. I know my momentum.
Fair. But also, lore. On the other hand, the lore can (probably) wait, since it (probably) won't help us beat Akatsuki.
It might become a significant problem if Snowflake starts objecting to Hazō using Shadow Clone efficiently. We should maybe do something about this.
Actually, the autonomy argument is in general a good backstop here, as long as Kei/Snowflake agree with the idea that you can't impose rules on peers purely for their own good. It would be better to convince Snowflake that there genuinely is no problem here, since otherwise it may well affect her relationship with Hazō, but failing that I'll take an argument that convinces her it's not her business what Hazō does with his own copies.
... In the very unlikely event that Snowflake point-blank refuses to listen to Hazō on this, it might be worth trying to first convince Kei, with the goal of making Snowflake - who IIUC has the same set of values, beliefs and desires as Kei, just with different cognitive plugins enabled - more inclined to see Hazō's perspective. This could obviously backfire massively, since if either Snowflake or Kei realized what was going on they would (rightly) conclude that Hazō was trying to circumvent Snowflake's agency and existence as a person, which they would probably ... not react well to ... but if we could make it sufficiently indirect, maybe by including both Kei and Snowflake in the discussion so it's not obvious we're attempting to convince Kei directly vs just letting Kei support Snowflake, it might allow us to bypass a hypothetical intractable emotional barrier. This is the sort of thing we'd want to consider only if Snowflake started actually taking direct action to prevent Hazō from using SCs, not just making snarky comments, but it is an option we have.
What Snowflake seems to be arguing here is something like this:
- Shadow Clones represent unique divergent perspectives.
- The creation and destruction of unique divergent perspectives represents, or can represent, a negative.
- Either trivial manual labour of this kind is not sufficient to justify the intrinsic negative of creating and destroying UDPs;
- Or creating and subsequently destroying UDPs whose only experiences will be trivial manual labour of this kind is a negative, even if under other circumstances it might be a positive.
- Shadow Clones represent unique divergent perspectives.
- Technically true, but may be worth ensuring Snowflake shares the baseline assumption that normal Shadow Clones are highly unlikely to diverge outside the space of perspectives that their Prime is capable of having.
- That is, outside the metaphorical convex hull of those perspectives. Obviously no Prime will ever have exactly the same experience as a Shadow Clone.
- May also be worth digging into what personhood means, but that's a thorny argument that I expect we the players don't agree on. (I view personhood as entirely determined by what a person wants, for example, but (I believe) most people wouldn't agree with me on that.)
- Technically true, but may be worth ensuring Snowflake shares the baseline assumption that normal Shadow Clones are highly unlikely to diverge outside the space of perspectives that their Prime is capable of having.
- The creation and destruction of unique divergent perspectives represents, or can represent, a negative.
- Given that this happens at least every time anyone sleeps, and arguably constantly at all times, I think this is probably the easiest point to attack. The creation and destruction of perspectives is an intrinsic part of any mind existing; from my current viewpoint, creating and destroying Shadow Clones doesn't look (in relevant ways) fundamentally different from normal cognition.
- Of course, this is not strictly an argument that it's not bad, but "people thinking is bad" seems unlikely to be an argument any variant of Kei will want to embrace.
- Given that this happens at least every time anyone sleeps, and arguably constantly at all times, I think this is probably the easiest point to attack. The creation and destruction of perspectives is an intrinsic part of any mind existing; from my current viewpoint, creating and destroying Shadow Clones doesn't look (in relevant ways) fundamentally different from normal cognition.
- Either trivial manual labour of this kind is not sufficient to justify the intrinsic negative of creating and destroying UDPs.
- Probably best attacked by arguing that the intrinsic negative doesn't exist, as above.
- Or creating and subsequently destroying UDPs whose only experiences will be trivial manual labour of this kind is a negative, even if under other circumstances it might be a positive.
- This is probably best opposed by an autonomy argument. If we can convince Snowflake (maybe she already believes this? Not sure) that Hazō's Shadow Clones are in fact him, and not different people who merely resemble him, then we can straightforwardly argue that it's Hazō's prerogative to do what he wants as long as it only affects him. Fobbing off manual labour on Shadow Clones then becomes just a different way of doing manual labour oneself.
Actually, the autonomy argument is in general a good backstop here, as long as Kei/Snowflake agree with the idea that you can't impose rules on peers purely for their own good. It would be better to convince Snowflake that there genuinely is no problem here, since otherwise it may well affect her relationship with Hazō, but failing that I'll take an argument that convinces her it's not her business what Hazō does with his own copies.
... In the very unlikely event that Snowflake point-blank refuses to listen to Hazō on this, it might be worth trying to first convince Kei, with the goal of making Snowflake - who IIUC has the same set of values, beliefs and desires as Kei, just with different cognitive plugins enabled - more inclined to see Hazō's perspective. This could obviously backfire massively, since if either Snowflake or Kei realized what was going on they would (rightly) conclude that Hazō was trying to circumvent Snowflake's agency and existence as a person, which they would probably ... not react well to ... but if we could make it sufficiently indirect, maybe by including both Kei and Snowflake in the discussion so it's not obvious we're attempting to convince Kei directly vs just letting Kei support Snowflake, it might allow us to bypass a hypothetical intractable emotional barrier. This is the sort of thing we'd want to consider only if Snowflake started actually taking direct action to prevent Hazō from using SCs, not just making snarky comments, but it is an option we have.
- Location
- United States
A few questions:
- Did Ami die??????
- I am confused. Am I (heh, Am-i) supposed to view it as a fundamental difference or just a large degree of divergence?
- If Shikamaru wasn't cleared to be taught shadow clone before WWIV started, he likely was soon after. Would his own clones not have a similar situation from his own Thinker bloodline?
This seems like much more consistent with the way Hazou and his SCs act. They seem completely fine with taking the hits for him as he's fine taking the hits for anything he deems worth it.
As long as the Greater Hazou is around he's just fine sacrificing himself to keep it around.
Say what you want about Hazou, he's no coward and he wouldn't mind sacrificing his memories/time for the slightest edge against whatever problem we've put before him.
- Location
- Can’t say. I know my momentum.
If she doesn't realize this on the I'd be surprised.
Yup. I feel like if we let it fester it might explode on us later.
I think we should absolutely not do this. It seems disrespectful to Snowflake.
Thanks for writing these arguments up.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- HDK
- It is a fundamental difference that has one unique effect (continuity of identity) and one ordinary effect (a large degree of divergence). Other clones can theoretically achieve a large degree of divergence (though "thinks in a fundamentally different way" is not something they're likely to equal in one day), but they cannot achieve continuity of identity in any way Hazō is aware of.
- HDK
- Location
- United States
This effect is what makes Snowflake not die.
This effect is what makes Snowflake a person.
Did I get that right?
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Pretty much this.
When the memories just dissolve and get transported back to the same pile of meat, its pretty clear cut. I think this perspective gets slightly muddied if Shadow Clones Were Murder, but I think the conclusion is unchanged.
Put another way, this certainly seems to be an instance where Kei and Snowflake are making an assumption about someone's internal experience on the issue: they experience this phenomenon in a different way and choose to identify as different people, therefore they are. The Hazous (arguably independently of their internal experiences of the Shadow Clone jutsu) choose to be the same, therefore they are.
It really is that simple.
- Location
- Washington, USA
Kagome previously referred to some sorts of events being off-limits to manipulation by Out entities, depending on how many degrees of causal separation they'd have from his own death. There could be a lot of other such restrictions due to the laws of nature, rival probability-manipulators, etc. in such a case, could be thought of almost like a pachinko machine where Jashin only gets to tweak the position of some subset of the pins. Prayer followed by basing a personal decision on an otherwise causally-isolated randomizer gives him a new pin to work with.
So it's my understanding that the process is somewhat lossy (like maybe 33%-50% total memory transfer) in that sense it is kind of like murder, in the sense that losing time is like dying.
Which it is not IMO, since while losing time feels the same as dying internally, externally nobody gets that hurt, since you're still around to them. It's not pleasant, but nothing compared to dying.
All around, I do think Snow is making an error in reasoning, but an understandable one.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
1) Kind of. There's still a philosophical question of whether each new Snowflake is the same person or a new person with the old one's memories, but this question also applies to normal human beings whose consciousness has been interrupted.
2) All shadow clones are people. This effect makes Snowflake a unique person as opposed to a nearly-identical copy of Kei.
- Location
- United States
I personally do not consider myself to be a different George from the George that went to bed last night, so I shall consider this to be a "Yes" if there are no other objections.
How do you define people?