Why not loop in Naruto on the extraction mission? He's gonna have to go missing as well once Itachi ask three basic questions on what he's been doing and fails the resolve check.
And Naruto's on our side.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
And Naruto's on our side.
Perhaps you can enlighten us which of these quotes demonstrate Itachi being fine and dandy with Hazo inventing them into the grave a second time. Or which one of these changed your previously stated opinion, which included "do not harm us".
Whether or not you do any of that what I would "call this" is thus:
1. Itachi says to Naruto he wants to "confirm that Hazo has not produced new work on dimensionalism in violation of Akatsuki's recent agreement with Leaf."
2. Itachi demands all of Leaf's dimensionalism research to be given to Akatsuki.
3. Itachi says Hazo could join Akatsuki, at that time and under those circumstances. Presumably, Itachi doesn't think Hazo will (ah, completely erroneously, does this guy know no history) cause his own organization to implode.
None of these preclude Itachi not wanting Hazo to invent the Akatsuki into the grave again. Besides thinking otherwise being the next best thing to delusional, you held this opinion one message ago!
I don't understand why you quoted them. Or, correction, I do understand why you quoted them, but I don't think they do what you think they do.
Now, I appreciate that you quoted the story after studiously ignoring other people quoting the story, but maybe you shouldn't do that when your most recent position is equivalent to "Itachi doesn't care if we nuke the Akatsuki, as long as we don't do dimensionalism." It just looks silly. (As an aside, our recent stunt is "arguably" dimensionalism too, so that line of argument blew up as well! Itachi should kill us for all the reasons. To be fair, your version of Itachi could be argued down from that trivially, so all's well.)
If your next message holds a different position altogether, or if you think I misunderstood your message, maybe you can endeavor to use direct arguments instead of tangential swipes in your next attempt. Perhaps then we can, with our powers combined, convince you that Itachi is not altogether a clown.
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Imagining how everyone would react when their kage goes missing and figuring out what to do about that is hilarious. "Are you gonna declare him a missing nin? No way you do it. Are you gonna put a bounty and set hunter missions? Not me. Let's just let the next kage deal with all this mess. Everyone nods."
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Itachi told Hazou not to interfere with their plans on pain of death. If Hazou cannot not interfere in their plans on pain of treason, well, sucks for him, but he gotta figure it out if he doesn't want Itachi to kill him. If Hazou needs to act as a double-agent to avoid interfering with the Akatsuki's plans – again, tough luck Hazou, but that's the rules. If Hazou can't make this work, he has to die. But it's okay, he's a creative fellow with a lot of resources and political power; he surely can make this work! If he wants to, that is.
We did not want to. It hasn't been a day after Itachi's departure that we were already sitting next to Tsunade enthusiastically trying to convince her to murder the Akatsuki and steal or destroy the rift, shoving novel superweapons into her face to make the argument more convincing. I feel confident that if we actually didn't want to oppose the Akatsuki, then the current rift-race just wouldn't be happening. Naruto wasn't making decisions in a vacuum, he very much took Hazou's enthusiasm and belief in Leaf's ability to prevail over the Akatsuki into account. If Hazou were reluctant and pessimistic and terrified of crossing the Akatsuki, instead of eager to take them apart? None of this would be happening.
So you agree that if Itachi had a more accurate picture of Hazou's plans and capabilities, he would want to kill him.
That is precisely the concern. Itachi is not going to limit his questioning to "did you research dimensionalism?", he's going to ask what we're planning and what steps we took towards those goals. A couple questions combined with reading Hazou's reactions would reveal to him that we're planning to oppose them, and that there's some secret capability we have which makes us optimisitc about succeeding. He's going to interrogate/torture Hazou until he gets at this secret (i. e., runecrafting). At which point he we're utterly doomed.
It is factually true that it is in Itachi's best interests to kill Hazou. The only reason he would not do it is if we prevent him from attaining an accurate-enough understanding of the situation. He is not going to cooperate with this; he will do his best to attain said accurate understanding.
Your plan to babble a bunch of technical truths at him is not sufficient to prevent him from attaining this understanding. It fails the moment Itachi opens his mouth and asks a question to which Hazou is going to react in a suspicious way.
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Isn't this how Izanagi works in canon Naruto?
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Kinda, though in the manga it's only limited to the user and only in weaksauce ways.
Here's the position I hold:
1. Itachi's mainly concerned about Hazo researching dimensionalism. That's top of mind. As has been shown repetitively, ad nauseam.
2. Hazo hasn't built or done anything that would be considered a direct threat to Akatsuk, so Itachi's not gonna change his mind suddenly on Hazo's threat value.
3. Itachi made a deal with us. This deal is something Itachi believes Hazo could actually comply with.
I don't hold:
Itachi doesn't care if we're able to nuke Akatsuki.
Itachi is an idiot.
Because note:
Itachi isn't really thinking about weapons. He's not a seal master. Nor has he shown concern about it in the past.
Hazo can't nuke Akatsuki. He hasn't built anything to nuke Akatsuki with. Or done anything that would be considered out of bounds of a normal seal research trip.
Why would Itachi suddently change his mind on no evidence?
Remember: Itachi doesn't know we have a bunch of crazy ideas that might work to table flip the setting. Why would he suddenly know or expect that?
I believe you hold:
Itachi's just makes random deals that are impossible to comply with.
Itachi's gonna nuke-nin our face for doing a normal seal research mission.
Itachi couldn't see that ahead of time and nuke-nin our face 3 months ago
The problem is, the questions of "Why did Itachi go through all this extra effort to make a deal" is not answered.
I hold the answer is, "Itachi's only mainly concerned about Hazo researching dimensionalism. He doesn't really think Hazo's sealing is that much a threat. (yet) If Hazo's not researching dimensionalism and hasn't built anything INCREDIBLY AND OBVIOUSLY dangerous, Itachi's mind won't change about that, and Hazo fine(ish) to keep around"
I've never once held that Itachi's a clown. Just try to view things from another's perspective and ask why the character did what they did, what information they're operating under, and try to see what would be reasonable actions under those conditions.
Itachi looks and been shown to hold these positions and probably won't change them unless given evidence to the contrary:
1. Hazo's dimensionalism research is the main threat he holds.
2. If Hazo's not researching dimensionalism, then he's been pretty effectively neutered.
3. That's why he shaped the deal with Hazo the way he did.
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Except for the Skywalkers, which doomed Nagato; and the Skyslicers, which vanquished Kakuzu.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
He views Hazou as a dangerously creative individual whose inventions have caused Akatsuki deaths in the past.
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Which Itachi already knew about and recently witnessed when he made the deal with Hazo? It's already priced in? He did the deal with that information? Why would no new evidence change his opinion now?
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Yes, and??? I'm literally refuting your point that "Hazo hasn't built or done anything that would actually be considered a direct threat to Akatsuk", by pointing out that Hazou has in fact built weapons that Itachi considered a direct threat to Akatsuki members.
And I'm pointing out that Itachi already knew that, and acts like he doesn't consider Hazo's sealing to be a threat? Why would that change now? On no new information?
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You are arguing, in your original post which I quoted, that Itachi believes "Hazo hasn't built or done anything that would actually be considered a direct threat to Akatsuk". That's a direct quote.
I have pointed out that Hazou has (paraphrased) invented weapons that could be considered a direct threat to Akatsuki in the past: specifically, the Skywalkers and the Skyslicers.
My response to your post is not that Itachi has new evidence since their last conversation that makes Hazou an increasingly dangerous threat warranting investigation/torture/death (NB: Me not saying this does not mean I do not believe this). My response to your post is to refute the statement "Hazo hasn't built or done anything that would actually be considered a direct threat to Akatsuk". Because Hazou has, in fact, done such a thing. In two separate instances.
Itachi has every reason to treat anything Hazou does as grounds for advanced interrogation to confirm that Hazou is not an active threat against Akatsuki. Because Hazou has, in fact, been an active and meaningful threat against Akatsuki in the past, with his Sealing contributions.
Thank you for your direct engagement.
1. With regards to your stated position:
1.1.: "Itachi's mainly concerned about Hazo research dimensionalism. That's top of mind. As has been shown repeativly, ad nausium."[sic]
Agreed, but irrelevant. I have no problems with accepting that Itachi thinks Hazo's dimensionalism is a more relevant threat. However, I don't think this has any bearing on Itachi's priority for his group's survival. Therefore, when asking Hazo about dimensionalism, it would be egregiously delusional to think that Itachi won't pay any attention to whether one of the most successful person in history with regards to killing Akatsuki is going to do it again. And Hazo will lose after the first question.
1.2.: "Hazo hasn't built or done anything that would actually be considered a direct threat to Akatsuk, so Itachi's not gonna change his mind suddently on Hazo's threat avenue."[sic]
No. Skywalkers, skyslicers, dragonwar, take your pick. This is trivially and demonstrably false even without any iota of speculation on Itachi's part. (Edit: As has been demonstrated above by @Noumero and @faflec)
1.3.: "Itachi made a deal with us. This deal is something Itachi actually expects Hazo could actually comply with."
No position, as it is irrelevant. I have addressed this explicitly prior.
2. With regards to your belief of my position, it is wholly wrong. Every single item is a belief I do not hold. It was rather impressive.
Edit:
It appears your position on 1.2. is now "Itachi doesn't think that Hazo currently has a demonstrable direct threat to Akatsuki".
Well, that's happily smackdown-able, so let me do so:
Irrelevant. Itachi knows that Hazo previously posed direct (and very successful) threat to the Akatsuki via his inventions. If you believe that the "now/previous" difference is sufficient for this argument to support your position, you must also assert that Itachi is unconcerned to the point that he will ignore all previous deeds and discussion and will not ask Hazo any extraneous questions besides "are you doing dimensionalism, right now?", despite any tells or fairy speak Hazo might engage in.
Since that position would require Itachi to be a complete clown, your position is that Itachi is a complete clown.
I don't think that's a tenable position.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
The new information is that Hazou – the guy who invented devices that caused Akatsuki deaths in the past, and whom Itachi considered too dangerous to be allowed to live, yet whom he reluctantly let go due to some mixed emotions, on condition that Hazou would not attempt to cause any more Akatsuki deaths with his inventions – that this guy is currently busy inventing devices to kill the Akatsuki.
Itachi is concerned about Hazou's ability to develop weapons, and respects his skill as a weapon designer. Itachi took the calculated risk of letting Hazou live on expectation that he won't try to develop more Akatsuki-killing weapons. Hazou has instead beelined for trying to develop more Akatsuki-killing weapons.
Hazou's plans to do this are not a pipe dream; he has empirically succeeded at it a few times in the past.
A Hazou attempting to develop Akatsuki-killing weapons is not a cute puppy angrily yet ineffectually biting at your ankles; he is a legitimate threat to the Akatsuki that must be neutralized with urgency. Itachi does not fail to grasp this fact.
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But what if they get caught, and Itachi genjutsu's Noburi into thinking they escaped, and so we get lured into a trap? How can we make sure that Noburi isn't wrong about the fact they escaped? (You know, I'm starting to think that genjutsu ought to be unforgivable.)
More HPMOR vibes.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was Jashin. Our next plan should include talking to Kei about our new friend.
An interesting point. Thanks for bringing it up.
It's called being so pessimistic that
Eh, somebody (it was either Naruto or Orochimaru IIRC) thought that Akatsuki wouldn't be able to beat Orochimaru while he was in the Basement.
Well, to be fair Naruto didn't reveal any information. Actually, for all we know he could be deliberately making himself look weaker.
Because it's another person that would need to be informed about the mission and it might arouse suspicion. I'm not saying that it's likely, but it's the first objection that comes to my mind.
His evidence would come from us having crap Deceit.
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My personal opinion is that Noburi and his squad go missing-nin in a completely different location to Hazou and his squad. They only ever meet on the Seventh Path, so that Noburi can update Hazou and give him chakra.
But I haven't added this in yet; I'm not sure how popular this plan is so I have left it open.
@CitizenTen it seems like you've made your case in full, and it hasn't seem to convince other players(or the QM who will be writing the chapter).
Instead of continuing to occupy a bunch of the threads conversational bandwidth, I suggest you accept that others aren't convinced, and move on.
Instead of continuing to occupy a bunch of the threads conversational bandwidth, I suggest you accept that others aren't convinced, and move on.
I'd really like to have the full team around for firepower, and so we can FOOM inside a Time Rune.
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[X] Make a Time Rune in the Seventh Path
[X] Wait, No, Don't Do That
I was talking about the research trip. But thanks for clarifying.
Set Scene:
Itachi's literally shows up, screaming and foaming at the mouth about checking if Hazo's doing dimensionalism research.
Action:
Itachi: *kicks down the door* Summon me Hazo! I must know if he's researched dimensionalism!
Hazo: *meekly* I haven't done dimensionalism research.
Itachi: And?
Hazo: *sigh* Nor have I done anything that could harm your interests.
Itachi: Thatta boy! *leaves*
The point isn't necessarly to convince the one i'm replying to. But if someone has a good point, I'm trying *to convince the bystander reading the discussion* that it's not a concern.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I personally don't think splitting the party is wise. We can ostensibly accomplish much more by being grouped together on the Human Path (ex: we could use summons in concert with everything else to keep an eye out for any approaching enemies while actually doing any infusions or while the non-research squad is hunting for chakra beasts for Noburi to drain, or whatever).
We also would probably want Noburis help contributing to some of the research things. Like analyzing and recreating the chakra water thing from Sand. This would have a higher chance of success if they're both poking at it first hand, etc.