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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Velorien said:
If you wish to have Hazō go to a medic-nin and ask them to do this for you once you're back in Leaf, feel free to put it in a plan. Hazō is confident that it will not work and will get him laughed at, but he's tried weirder things.
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Why? The byakugan, to be the best of my knowledge, is a bloodline focused on the eyes. Nothing about the rest of their bodies is any different than any other ninja.

A ninja's Tenketsu are not blocked or closed off, or else the gentle fist would not be effective against them, since it specializes in pushing chakra through them and temporarily blocking them off to make their opponent less effective. Lee's were smaller in canon, and he was essentially crippled as a ninja as a result, only capable of internal chakra manipulation.

Hyuuga do not practice from birth to stretch the emitters on their arms and elsewhere to some unusual size. Only prodigies like Neji bother to learn how to expel chakra from other locations of their body, and only in their teens or later as their skill rises to a point where they can learn techniques like the 'Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven', which uses every single tenketsu at once and is not at all what I'm trying to replicate.

Why would Hazo be confident that it wouldn't work, when the theory is absolutely sound? I could understand if he was unsure if he might be missing something, but confidence implies he has information that we don't have. And secondly, why would people laugh at him for the suggestion? Once again, if the theory is sound, I expect other ninja might shrug it off as possible but a waste of time. Laughing at him for the suggestion is once again a much stronger reaction than sounds reasonable.

If there is an error in the theory as I've described it such that Hazo is confident it wouldn't work AND that others would laugh at him for the absurdity of his clearly erroneous efforts, then would you be willing to share that information? Since Hazo himself must have it for him to make statements of confidence like this.

If it's simply a case of 'that information isn't publicly known + clan secrets' I wouldn't expect this reaction. And medical ninja like Tsunade and Noburi should surely have the basic information of ninja chakra pathways by now even if the Hyuuga aren't walking about bragging about it or sharing their knowledge freely with leaf mednin for some reason.
 
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redzonejoe said:
Hyuuga do not practice from birth to stretch the emitters on their arms and elsewhere to some unusual size. Only prodigies like Neji bother to learn how to expel chakra from other locations of their body, and only in their teens or later as their skill rises to a point where they can learn techniques like the 'Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven', which uses every single tenketsu at once and is not at all what I'm trying to replicate.
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How do you know this? Is it canon? if it's canon, I suggest you reevaluate it.
 
Sir Stompy said:
I am currently doing prep days in vote format, just vote for:

[X] [prep day] Substitution Rune

And it'll get counted by the tally. If it makes it to the top 10 or so ideas that cycle, I'll put it in the plan.

As for your second idea, I'm not sure I follow, is the idea to use runic substrate as a stand in for paper and chakra ink?
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Fair enough.
[X] [prep day] Substitution Rune
[X] [prep day] Runic 2d seals

Yes. The idea is that the big complication with runes was making seal elements in 3d, which required new theory, etc. We got new materials and manipulation methods along the way though and it's possible that existing seals could be boosted just with new materials.

A 2d stone substrate embedded in stone would seem to me to be more durable than paper and ink. This could potentially allow vastly extended use (permanent force blades, etc) or stronger effects (bigger than standard explosion seal without much runic drag).
 
Sir Stompy said:
How do you know this? Is it canon? if it's canon, I suggest you reevaluate it.
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Which is why I'm asking for clarification. If Hazo has In-universe knowledge of Hyuuga training their tenketsu, I would like that information to be conveyed to the readers.

If Hazo does not have that information, then the theory remains perfectly sound and I have no idea why people would react as if it is insane. Like, hello, Hazo once turned a seal upside down and taught the entire world how to walk through the skies. 'People haven't tried this before' is not a good reason to dismiss anything, let alone for Hazo to dismiss it himself.
 
redzonejoe said:
Which is why I'm asking for clarification. If Hazo has In-universe knowledge of Hyuuga training their tenketsu, I would like that information to be conveyed to the readers.

If Hazo does not have that information, then the theory remains perfectly sound and I have no idea why people would react as if it is insane. Like, hello, Hazo once turned a seal upside down and taught the entire world how to walk through the skies. 'People haven't tried this before' is not a good reason to dismiss anything, let alone for Hazo to dismiss it himself.
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So officially:
Velorien said:
FaintlySorcerous said:
@Velorien @eaglejarl @Paperclipped is it relatively common knowledge that the Hyuuga can activate non-traditional tenketsu?
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It is not. HDK whether it is a clan secret because he's never heard of it.
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However...
eaglejarl said:
With the exception of people with special bloodlines (eg Hyuuga), ninja can't manipulate their chakra like that. Noburi could flick his drain on and off to send the "pokes" you're talking about, but Hazou couldn't respond.
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Velorien said:
2) No. You don't have that kind of "pure" chakra manipulation ability. Like most non-Hyūga, you can only emit chakra through your hands and feet, and your ability to do so doesn't have the kind of precision necessary to manipulate a technique not designed for it.
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charlesrwest said:
[X] [prep day] Substitution Rune
[X] [prep day] Runic 2d seals
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Sorry, voting is closed right now! If you repost this once voting is opened and they'll be counted properly.

charlesrwest said:
A 2d stone substrate embedded in stone would seem to me to be more durable than paper and ink. This could potentially allow vastly extended use (permanent force blades, etc) or stronger effects (bigger than standard explosion seal without much runic drag).
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This seems like it's within the scope of a QM question, Hazou the sealmaster would probably have an opinion about it.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Based on Hazou's knowledge of Sealing, does he think it's possible to scribe his 2-D seals in a thin strip of substrate as opposed to chakra ink on paper?

To my understanding, there's a great deal of fine feathering and brushstroke work that couldn't easily be replicated in substrate. First off, does Hazou think he could do this at all? I imagine the chakra channels might not translate over to 2D sealing if the substrate is too thin.

Secondly, if he does think he can do it, are the analogies of the brushwork obvious enough that he wouldn't need to reresearch all of his seals?

Last, if he does think he would need to reresearch everything, does he think there would still be advantages over paper sealing? As I understand it, the advantage of Runecrafting is that you can use the three dimensional structure to pack a whole lot more effect than you can do in 2D. Does Hazou think the increased durability of substrate would make a difference in the power output he could get from his seals?

redzonejoe said:
If Hazo does not have that information, then the theory remains perfectly sound and I have no idea why people would react as if it is insane. Like, hello, Hazo once turned a seal upside down and taught the entire world how to walk through the skies. 'People haven't tried this before' is not a good reason to dismiss anything, let alone for Hazo to dismiss it himself.
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I don't think you were told it was impossible, just that people think it's impossible, and Hazou would be laughed at for trying it. Seems like you just asked the equivalent of Hazou asking if flapping his arms and flying like a bird was possible, yet keep in mind we invented skywalkers anyway.

However, without the medical knowledge to experiment ourselves, I doubt we'll get far.
 
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Okay. I still think the theory is sound and Hazo should be able to learn this, but if Hazo has literally never heard of anybody anywhere pushing chakra out of their tenketsu, including the Hyuuga, then I can understand why people might think it's a silly idea.

I maintain the belief that the 'Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven' shouldn't be secret in the sense that they never let anybody live who can see them do it. It feels more to me like a secret on par with the gentle fist itself or the Nara shadow manipulation, where others know they can do this but have no possibility of copying it. But if Hazo hasn't heard of it then he hasn't heard of it.

Sir Stompy said:
I don't think you were told it was impossible, just that people think it's impossible, and Hazou would be laughed at for trying it. Seems like you just asked the equivalent of Hazou asking if flapping his arms and flying like a bird was possible, yet keep in mind we invented skywalkers anyway.

However, without the medical knowledge to experiment ourselves, I doubt we'll get far.
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Correct. I was told that Hazo himself would react to his own idea as if he thought it was impossible which seemed a bit ridiculous to me, but I am now more willing to believe it despite some minor disagreements about what should be known to to the Ninja of leaf.

I still think that with Noburi's medical knowledge it should still be very doable, but understand that given the lack of IC-knowledge involved and the demands on our time currently, we're probably not going to be sticking a scene about this in a plan in the near future. Seems a shame, but oh well.

Thanks to everybody involved for the informative responses!

Edit: Since you, stompy, are THE planmaker currently, I think it would be cool if you were able to fit a line about this in somewhere but won't be pushing for it. Hazo discussing the new seal with Noburi and laments that he still can't stab people with his elbow, Noburi makes an off-hand comment about the tenketsu located there and Hazo gets ideas.
 
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redzonejoe said:
I maintain the belief that the 'Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven' shouldn't be secret in the sense that they never let anybody live who can see them do it. It feels more to me like a secret on par with the gentle fist itself or the Nara shadow manipulation, where others know they can do this but have no possibility of copying it. But if Hazo hasn't heard of it then he hasn't heard of it.
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I think he saw Hinata use it on Noburi in the tournament. But not what it does or how it works.
 
_The_Bomb said:
Iris-Iven-Ibis said:
This does not make sense to me wouldn't trying to mess with the same technique over and over again make it easier to mess with that seems to make more logical sense
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Chakra gets annoyed. Ever try to convince someone to do something over and over and over again without break?
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Let's say one hacker repeatedly tries to tweak [Fire Technique 0137] and the difficulty goes wayyyy up.

If another technique hacker also tries to tweak [Fire Technique 0137] in that manner, would they also have an increased difficulty?
 
redzonejoe said:
!!!
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?

I'm not sure if I can use this information to my advantage. What a tease.
BTW edited my last post at the end dunno if you saw but I was addressing you so please take a second look kthxbye
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I saw it, but we don't really have the time. It's the sort of thing that Noburi would need to experiment on Hazou Prime for and he's busy with the Tsunade thing.

If you just want Hazou to get interested in opening tenketsu. I can have him ask Noburi if he knows why ninja can only emit chakra from their hands/feet. That seems doable, and easy to implement.
Velorien said:
"Finally," Hinata breathed as he presented her with an opening. She looked right at him, as if she needed to, and her whole expression shifted to match the implacable certainty in those inhuman eyes.

"You are within the range of my divination."
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Velorien said:
Hinata Supplemental: Eight Trigrams Sixty Four Palms
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Also, nope she didn't use it, and she didn't call out what she was doing either.
 
_The_Bomb said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Let's say one hacker repeatedly tries to tweak [Fire Technique 0137] and the difficulty goes wayyyy up.

If another technique hacker also tries to tweak [Fire Technique 0137] in that manner, would they also have an increased difficulty?
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I was wondering this as well. If true, it might be the reason the Pangolins had a "no hacking the jutsu we give you" clause. And I would expect this clause to be somewhat standard when trading jutsu, actually.

Also, does hacking a jutsu repeatedly for the purpose of creating new jutsu increase the difficulty to develop personal stunts as well?
 
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DanZapman said:
Still runs into the issue where civilians being able to use seals makes them relevant to ninja warfare and therefore no longer scenery to be ignored. Making them cannon fodder for ninja is worse.
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On the other hand, I argue that civilians are already being treated like livestock. Remember that city that Akane burned down? How diverting the course of a river to drown/starve tens of thousands of Rock civilians was proposed by Hazō as a wartime strategy? (If I'm remembering that bit correctly)

Civilians are already killed when convenient. Making them able to participate meaningfully in a fight might earn them better treatment and improve their social standing.
 
Pharos said:
Civilians are already killed when convenient. Making them able to participate meaningfully in a fight might earn them better treatment and improve their social standing.
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Yes, but also it probably gets civilian populations onto ninja radar more often. The strategies you cite exist but were explicitly unusual, and my concern is that they seem very likely to become normalized if we get civilians involved in warfare.
 
DanZapman said:
Yes, but also it probably gets civilian populations onto ninja radar more often. The strategies you cite exist but were explicitly unusual, and my concern is that they seem very likely to become normalized if we get civilians involved in warfare.
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This same conversation took place when I suggested Button seals way back when. General feeling back then was that it would make life more dangerous for civilians if ninja have to consider any one of them as capable of suddenly exploding.
 
There's also a practical aspect to consider, in that explosives and other [seals that could hurt ninja] are most useful out in the countryside, where they have the least contact with ninja. How are we getting seals to these civilians, and training them in their use? How are we keeping these shipments from being taken, either by other villages looking to steal from Konoha's seals (NB: seals are expensive), or by Konoha's own ninja looking to bolster their personal survival at the cost of civilians (NB: civilians are second-class citizens here)?

If it's in the cities, this is less of an issue; we're close enough to ninja for a sealmaster to be posted, and we can restrict the use of the seal-activation devices to certain areas, with violation resulting in horrible death or something. But the countryside? Civilians need seals there more.
 
I think something like a durable force blade would be good here. You could embed the seal in the handle so the seal is well protected and then it essentially a really big and sharp knife. People know how to use knifes/swords and I think they would be both generally useful and far more viable against chakra beasts than people.
 
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Earwing said:
I was wondering this as well. If true, it might be the reason the Pangolins had a "no hacking the jutsu we give you" clause. And I would expect this clause to be somewhat standard when trading jutsu, actually.

Also, does hacking a jutsu repeatedly for the purpose of creating new jutsu increase the difficulty to develop personal stunts as well?
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That is a a very insightful comment! I wish I could give more than one react.
 
Velorien said:
This is fanon. Canonically, Lee can't use ninjutsu or genjutsu just because he is really bad at them.
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Really? Ah, my mistake.

Do you know offhand if sticking a leaf to the forehead is a canon or fanon chakra control exercise? I'm also guessing fanon right now but it would be really convenient if there was a mention in canon, not that that would necessarily apply here either. It's easy to believe that tenketsu mostly aren't used anywhere but the hands and feet out of practicality rather than some hard limit. I can definitely imagine students goofing off and trying (and possibly even succeeding!) to stick a leaf to somewhere like an elbow before a teacher yells at them to get them focusing. It really feels to me like something that would be written off as a waste of time rather than something that nobody has ever heard of and thinks is impossible.

Sorry if I'm being a bother about a minor issue, Stompy is willing to try and fit it in a plan if he can find the room so I'm just making casual discussion for the fun of it at this point.
 
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redzonejoe said:
Really? Ah, my mistake.

Do you know offhand if sticking a leaf to the forehead is a canon or fanon chakra control exercise? I'm also guessing fanon right now but it wouldn't break my argument. I imagine that tenketsu mostly aren't used anywhere but the hands and feet out of practicality rather than some hard limit. I can definitely imagine students goofing off and trying (and possibly even succeeding!) to stick a leaf to somewhere like an elbow before a teacher yells at them to get them focusing. It really feels to me like something that would be written off as a waste of time rather than something that nobody has ever heard of and thinks is impossible.
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naruto.fandom.com

Leaf Concentration Practice

This training method is done by placing a leaf over an individual's forehead and having them direct all their chakra onto the leaf, using it as a focal point. This exercise can be used by Academy teachers as a way to teach students how to control their chakra more effectively. However, the true...
naruto.fandom.com naruto.fandom.com
 
faflec said:
naruto.fandom.com

Leaf Concentration Practice

This training method is done by placing a leaf over an individual's forehead and having them direct all their chakra onto the leaf, using it as a focal point. This exercise can be used by Academy teachers as a way to teach students how to control their chakra more effectively. However, the true...
naruto.fandom.com naruto.fandom.com
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Ah, concentration more than chakra manipulation, and no mention of actual adhesion. Got it, thanks.

I'd also understand if Hazo, not being born in leaf, wasn't even familiar with this exercise.
 
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faflec said:
There's also a practical aspect to consider, in that explosives and other [seals that could hurt ninja] are most useful out in the countryside, where they have the least contact with ninja. How are we getting seals to these civilians, and training them in their use? How are we keeping these shipments from being taken, either by other villages looking to steal from Konoha's seals (NB: seals are expensive), or by Konoha's own ninja looking to bolster their personal survival at the cost of civilians (NB: civilians are second-class citizens here)?

If it's in the cities, this is less of an issue; we're close enough to ninja for a sealmaster to be posted, and we can restrict the use of the seal-activation devices to certain areas, with violation resulting in horrible death or something. But the countryside? Civilians need seals there more.
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Right now, uplift is better served by Goketsu having a powerful combat suprise to keep them non-dead.

But a few years from now, when our personal power is significantly grown and the suprise is leaked anyway, it may be worthwhile to mass-distribute lightsabers in order to get them to civilians.

As per Shikaku's wisdom, we'll first research anti-force blade defences, in case anyone tries to assassinate us with our own invention.
 
Personally, I think it would make a lot of sense to hand them out to all the leaf jonin and higher leaf ninja. It's a pretty big boost and could make the difference between victory and failure in the coming conflict.

Probably want to let Naruto handle the distribution to avoid opsec leaks, but this would be a big deal for a Yuno, Rock Lee or Tenten type and I think we have quite enough of allies dying.
 
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