Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

_The_Bomb · May 8, 2023

_The_Bomb said:
@eaglejarl, did Hazō's team find any evidence of explosions or un triggered seals at Team Akane's campsite?

@eaglejarl, how far is it from Konoha to the assassin team's entry/exit sight? Did Canvass smell anything that would suggest someone left Leaf and ran straight for the border area the day before Akane's team left?

_The_Bomb · May 8, 2023

Lysbeth Succubus said:
Thankfully, Honoka's a genius.

Most naturally talented member of the Gōketsu.

_The_Bomb · May 8, 2023

Black King said:
Why do you think we have the political capital that not even the Hokage has, to change how Clan Secrets work on such a fundamental level?

Because he is seeding power to the Clans and expanding their privileges. It's not Hokage's political capital that matters, but our political capital with the Hokage.

@faflec, have there been any further clarifications on the legalities around Clan Secrets beyond the top level summary I was able to find and quoted earlier?

RandomOTP · May 8, 2023

_The_Bomb said:
@faflec, have there been any further clarifications on the legalities around Clan Secrets beyond the top levels summary I was able to find and quoted earlier?

I have a vague impression of there being Discord quotes, though I haven't the spoons to go find them at the moment.

Shrooms · May 8, 2023

Oneiros said:
You're over complicating things, we just bump resolve up to 30 and deceit to 20 in one jump.

Getting surging seas up to pretty decent levels (30 or 40+) eventually would still be a good move for Noburi down the line especially since he can move allies with it at the same time (summons or PCs)

RandomOTP · May 8, 2023

Shrooms said:
Getting surging seas up to pretty decent levels (30 or 40+) eventually would still be a good move for Noburi down the line especially since he can move allies with it at the same time (summons or PCs)

This is my thought as well, basically.

_The_Bomb · May 8, 2023

Paperclipped said:
As she spoke, she walked around the room, activating various privacy seals, finishing with placing down one of their extremely limited supply of anti-Byakugan seals on the desk at the center of the room. With the privacy seals set, she crossed the room and gently relaxed into the armchair across from Hazō.

@Paperclipped, did Kagome give up researching this seal from Jiraiya's notes?

Also, do we have a list of what the currently unstudied Jiraiya seals (let's say at jōnin-level and up) are, or are we completely unable to tell what a seal does until we finish researching it?

faflec · May 8, 2023

_The_Bomb said:
Because he is seeding power to the Clans and expanding their privileges. It's not Hokage's political capital that matters, but our political capital with the Hokage.

@faflec, have there been any further clarifications on the legalities around Clan Secrets beyond the top level summary I was able to find and quoted earlier?

eaglejarl said:
Just as every individual has secret techniques, every clan has secret techniques and secret knowledge. The first rule of clan secrets is that you don't talk about clan secrets. This is literally codified in village law, and if the Hokage attempted to ferret out clan secrets it would almost certainly lead to (at best) that clan leaving Leaf or (at worst) civil war. In general, clans do not reveal their secret techniques even to their own members until said members are old enough to keep them secret.

_The_Bomb · May 8, 2023

@faflec anything on what can and cannot be considered a clan secret? What specific protections do clan secrets retain?

eaglejarl · May 8, 2023

RandomOTP said:
Did... did Cannai know the OG Humans, pre-Sage? Or maybe the first generation afterwards? These are pretty modern expressions and Hazou doesn't recognize them.

HDK

acidshill said:
I'm confused about what happened here—did the MEW granite contain pure or mostly pure iron, or did it contain iron oxides? If the latter, did the earthshaping chemically change the oxides? I'm pretty sure that real-life granite would have much more iron oxides than pure iron, and I'd be surprised if the earthshaping jutsu treated e.g. Fe2O3 any differently from Al2O3...

Hazō doesn't know this, but I'll bend a little bit. There is essentially no such thing as elemental iron that you can dig out of the ground. All iron on Earth, with the exception of a couple of mines, contains iron oxides or other compounds.

acidshill said:
Question for @eaglejarl: was Hazō able to earthshape the iron ore? Was it easier to work with than pure iron?

There was no pure iron in the wall.

coldcutconvict said:
Dig deep hole to hot rock. Use heat to generate steam.

A quick google tells me that a vertical-loop geothermal plant runs up to 300' deep. Hazō's current level of ES allows him to affect a cube 64m x 64m x 64m, so this is actually sorta possible. If he bumps ES to level 60 then he will be able to affect 128m x 128m x 128m, making geothermal quite doable at least in terms of depth.

coldcutconvict said:
Coal plants heat water to 600 Celsius. 20km deep?

I can't think of any jutsu or seal that Hazō has access to that would generate shafts this deep in any sort of practical amount of effort.

coldcutconvict said:
3D print metal.

In theory this is possible but in practice it's not. Ripping the metal into sheets thin enough to work, then moving the sheets around, then bonding the layers together, is impractically slow.

RandomOTP said:
loadstones

lodestone

_The_Bomb said:
he is seeding power to the Clans

ceding

_The_Bomb said:
@Paperclipped, did Kagome give up researching [the anti-Byakugan] seal from Jiraiya's notes?

My understanding is that Hazō has jerked Kagome from project to project and therefore he has not completed a lot of them. I think this includes the anti-Hyūga seal but I'm prepared to be corrected.

_The_Bomb · May 8, 2023

eaglejarl said:
I need full names (first and last) plus gender for everyone on the Clan Council. That should be:

eaglejarl said:
Orochimaru (M, originally)

eaglejarl said:
EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure if Oro is on the council or simply in the meeting. nm

For the sake of completion:

Orochimaru Yasha (Male Presenting)
Not on Council

RandomOTP · May 8, 2023

eaglejarl said:
Orochimaru (M, originally)

Orochimaru nonbinary/agender confirmed??

Edit: emphasis mine
Edit2: "I abide by no social construct. Now stop bothering me, Nephew. Or, better yet, help me with this project. Hand me that scalpel."

_The_Bomb · May 8, 2023

eaglejarl said:
My understanding is that Hazō has jerked Kagome from project to project and therefore he has not completed a lot of them. I think this includes the anti-Hyūga seal but I'm prepared to be corrected.

The status of that one is currently ???, since he was studying it back when it was a Jiraiya-exclusive. Based on some of rants in the early Leaf days it would seem to be a seal he would highly prioritize, but that's just speculation.

acidshill · May 8, 2023

eaglejarl said:
Hazō doesn't know this, but I'll bend a little bit. There is essentially no such thing as elemental iron that you can dig out of the ground. All iron on Earth, with the exception of a couple of mines, contains iron oxides or other compounds.

I am still confused. You say 'contains iron oxides', but I was expecting 'entirely iron oxides'. So if it's mostly not iron oxides it sounds like it's mostly elemental iron? Which would make sense of the fact that ES had trouble with it.

Like, pure hematite, if Hazō were somehow able to get a hold of that, has the same crystalline structure as corundum, which we know is easy to earthshape. So it would be kinda weird if hematite were more difficult to work with. And I don't know how you intend the earthshaping jutsu to work, but I'm a little worried that this chapter will establish some precedent that is inconvenient for us later on.

RandomOTP · May 8, 2023

RandomOTP said:
[x] Noburi Training Plan: Medknow
Medknow 47 -> 49 (-10 banked lootbox XP, -87 general XP)

(126 -87) = 39 general XP remaining

[x] Kei Training Plan: Frozen Skein
Frozen Skein 20 -> 29 (-450)

(485 - 450) = 35 XP Remaining

Boost

Left-Hand Mutant · May 8, 2023

Left-Hand Mutant said:
Our goals seem like:

0) [detour] do any further immediately actionable investigation of Akane's killers.
a) talk to Inuzuka: figure out the origin of attacker's spice profile. ask them about known scent-faking methods. <not yet voted for>
b) Truth Lost in Fog + Mindwalk on Ruka. <requires us to trust Asuma, not yet voted>

1) fix the great seal
a) Hazo figure out 3D sealing
-a1) find a suitable material for the seal <in progress>
-a2) invent 3D-sealing theory <in progress> <only Orochimaru is making progress?>
b) invent a better way to fight these dragons <skyslicers?>
c) gather Clan Bosses vs Dragons to out clear the seal <in progress>
-c1) Recurit Ataksuki for extra firepower? <Asuma might be doing this?>

2) necromancy
a) Kagome makes the portal opener seal <in progress>
-a1) recruit Naruto to power the seal and guard the rift <not started>
-a2) Noburi/Tsunade invents a way to open Naruto's chakra-pores so he can power the seal <not started>
b) seduce/distract Akatsuki
-b1) Ami handles Konan/Itachi/Kisame/Kakuzu/Deidara. poor Ami. <in progress>
-b2) Hazou handles Hidan via (???) <not started>
-b3) Hazo gets an in with Sasori via sealing research <not started>
c) prepare to operate effectively in the Pure Land without chakra
-c1) train in mundane combat/athletics and mundane social skills. jutsu and chakra boost won't help us. <currently debateing training plans>
-c2) recruit allies, especially non-jutsu-reliant jounin/powerhouses(Hana, Mari, Rock Lee) <not started>
-c3) alternatively, come up with an easy way to locate people in the Pure Land. this is a long shot. <???>
d) enter the rift, locate Nagato, make the best Uplift speach ever made. <not started>

thoughts:
We need either Tsunade or Noburi to invent a way to open Naruto's chakra-pores. I don't think we can retain control of this operation if we include Tsunade. therefore, we should tasks Noburi on chakra-pore opening ASAP. this research may require higer mednin.
We need to unlock 3D-sealing. ES 50 gives us a bunch of promising leads, but we still need to invent the theory of 3D sealing. Sasori would probably be a huge help here, and it's a great way to get an in with him, and get more Akatsuki suppourt for the Dragonbattle general.

Bump as reminder. does anyone disagree with this?

eaglejarl said:
Other experiments you did and their outcomes:

Q: Can we make better lenses out of pure silica?
A: Yes

Q: En masse fabrication of metal items?
A: You can produce metal items VERY, VERY, VERRRRY slowly. So slowly that it's not worth it unless you're, I dunno, trapped in a cave and need to make a thousand pickaxes or something

Q: Can we make sharper kunai (with compressed blades?)
Q: Is a kunai made of compressed metal stronger than regular kunai?
A: Hazō did not try the experiment because it would have taken too long. You could in theory tear a chunk of metal apart into super thin sheets, compress each sheet, then fuse the sheets back together as though you were 3D-printing a kunai. In terms of time it's definitely not going to be worth it to do it this way. You can do the experiment if you want to blow an entire day on it.

Q: Can we compress coal into diamonds?
A: Yes

Q: Can we make sheet glass for windows?
A: Yes, although corundum is a better choice

Q: Look at other gemstones and try to recreate them.
A: As mentioned in the update, Hazō can make sapphires. He doesn't know what beryllium etc are so cannot do the appropriate doping for other gems

Q: [Can we reproduce] a sample of masterwork steel?
A: TBD

Q: Examine the Honey Cave crystals with ES. Are they unusual in any way?
A: TBD

Q: If we compress silica, does it compare with weapons-grade metal?
A: TBD

Note that we also have a flake from the Great Seal(I think?), which would be part of "testing ES on every material we can get our hands on"

Black King said:
[X] Action Plan: Doing it again
Word Count: <300

Mari

Talk about getting Kagome SC. Should be easy with Dragons and his sealing, right? If not, what can we offer?

Get Yuno SC as well.

Akane's mission was leaked, we need to find out how/from who and prepare accordingly. Also look into seeing if any of the rest of us are being targeted as such. Also if there are any deniable assets she knows of who could've done this

Asking Hidan for help with tracking Akane's blood. Fine idea? He likes us, is AMITY enforcer? Ask Asuma?

See about getting access to spices/items from other countries to cross-reference with Canvass for Akane's attackers. If the Chunin Exam is still going on, use that. Independent of Asuma action.

Asuma

Sanity check with Mari

Discuss getting Kagome SC for Dragon war. What really helps is more sealmasters of Kagome's caliber.

Hagoromo: Don't want to involve them in our schools, possible sabotage. Collaboration on Till n Fills fine, also teaching/tutoring for stuff like TH for Reo.

Promotion to Sealing Special Jonin. Orochimaru fancies us his peer, we think it's time.

See about getting access to spices/items from other countries to cross-reference with Canvass for Akane's attackers. If the Chunin Exam is still going on, use that.

If Mari clears, ask about Hidan's help

Hazou/Sealing

Use SC to check list of seals and work on them if they're doable without SSA. Have Kagome work with the blood tracking and security seals if possible.

Continue work on Minato's Seals with Kagome

Continue on Directional Explosives/Rocket Boots

Look at the Dog Scroll with the IN. Justification: Progress for Necromancy/Rift Seals as Summoning Scrolls allow travel to another dimension.

I like this plan a lot. maybe also include some discussion of ES exploitation?
Kagome is *Terrible* at lying or concealing info. I think Asuma might rightly regard this as an OPSEC disaster for shadow clones.
under "getting more top-tier sealmasters working on the Great Seal" can you please add "discuss including Sasori"? we need an in with him for A-Day anyway.

Inferno Vulpix said:
So here's what I'm thinking: we go to Asuma and say "Hey, I figured out how to make unlimited iron ore (and various other metals) from the Earthshaping jutsu. I'd like to sell as much of this as possible so Leaf can have a ton of cheap high-quality iron, but I don't want to crash the market by selling too much. Could you direct me to the economic think tank so we can figure out how much I can sell without adverse effects?"

This has a few good effects:

We don't harm innocent people by crashing the market

We still sell a lot of iron and gems and other valuable stuff and get rich off of it

Asuma can take measures to protect Leaf's metal markets from someone else pulling this trick in the future

Asuma will be absolutely delighted to see Hazou take something like this to his desk first instead of recklessly endangering Leaf

And most importantly: we don't have to think about it too hard. The Tower will take care of all the hard parts, all we do is produce the valuables and rake in the profits

Even better, if something does go wrong, we don't bear any responsibility for it! We gave control over to the think tank, we're just the producers.

It may be blasphemous of me to say, but we should take this opportunity to be anti-treason. Actively lower the likelihood that we'll be accused of treason in the future. Wild, I know, but I think we have a shot at pulling it off. We can do this now, in the same update as we respond to Asuma about the Hagoromo, and get that ball rolling ASAP.

This is a very good approach and I like it very much. note that could bring up gems under different terms. maybe put ourself at the tower's disposal for iron, but say "Goketsu are planning to do diamond things, recognize that we're seeking your council, and respect our secrecy as a matter of trust."?
Either way, your approach is awesome.

_The_Bomb said:
On the bright side, if Asuma was somehow not convinced from the SkyTowers or the SkyWalkers or the Clanless Training Adjustment or the EM Nuke, the "permanent end to Leaf's metal problems" and "massive ability to inflict economic warfare on the rival villages" from a simple utility Jutsu will probably drive him over the edge.

EDIT: Actually, how many setting-breakers has Hazō given Leaf?

Skytowers

Skywalkers

Revamping the Academy system so that clanless ninja actually get trained.

Storage Seal Bank For Civilians (this one seems a stretch)

Zoo Rush

Skyslicers

EM Nuke

Team Akane Seal Bank (effects pending)

The permanent end of metal scarcity in Leaf (soon)

Massive economic warfare capabilities (sorry MARI) (soon)

NARUTO: Why'd you call me here, boss?

ASUMA: It turns out Hazō Gōketsu is actually Leaf's most valuable long-term asset, in additional to being essential for stopping the literal end of everything in the short term.

NARUTO: Fuck.

ASUMA: Fortunately, he appears to have actually learned his lesson and came straight to me when he figured out how to trivially create high-grade iron ex nihilo.

NARUTO: He did WHA—

ASUMA: Actually, it's more like literally all metals alongside a bunch of other things like gems and super-durable glass.

NARUTO: …

ASUMA: Yeah. Think of him like a new jinchūriki in terms of strategic utility. Looks like I'm upgrading my offer to teach him how to be a clan Clan Head into…. being my direct apprentice, I guess. Do you think he would want a Chakra Pony?

NARUTO: …

ASUMA: Let's get you some Willowbark Tea.

Pointing out our track record and "like a new jinchūriki in terms of strategic utility" is a good negotiating strategy for getting normal payment, and an incredible one for getting anything that invests in Hazo specifically.
Also, this might be pretty fun to write. plan-writers, consider this.

FaintlySorcerous said:
[X] Action Plan: Reflection
Word count: <300

Ino

Plan a private date.

Be there for her. Listen. Talk about fashion. Gossip.

Does she feel up to being a sounding board for a clan head issue?

Contemplate alone (later) if not.

Maintaining OPSEC, explain your conversation with Asuma about the Hagoromo.

You don't like them. But you can't beat them. They'll always have plausible deniability.

Will they ever leave you alone? Would it matter if you stopped?

How do you break the cycle?

Go through what you want to say to Asuma.

Give her a mirror - corundum shell around reflective metal, jewelled handle.

This one won't break.

Asuma:

Bring Mari/Kei. Optimize beforehand.

Explain ES-MEW interactions.

Give him gems, samples. Verify their quality with craftspeople.

This will scale with MARI (test first).

Let Mari outline the economic implications and opportunities.

You learned your lesson: you're coming to him.

Mari exits. Discuss the Hagoromo.

May you speak plainly?

The Hagoromo you've met are vile bigots.

Kei's relationships hurt no one.

They treat Harumitsu poorly.

Did refusing to officiate Noburi/Yuno's wedding serve the Will of Fire?

But you're tired.

Destroying Ritsuo's knife helped nobody.

The plays helped nobody.

There's just been more hate.

Ruka:

Is her punishment (effectively, death) mostly about Akane? If so, it seems…harsh.

(Dispel.)

Five years would be enough. Or long-term till'n'fills with KEI/clanless nin. Hatred doesn't withstand exposure.

Does he think Ruka can change?

Reconciliation:

Goketsu and Hagoromo need to see each other as full people.

Reference the evolution of Noburi/Neji's relationship.

Assign Goketsu-Hagoromo teams long-term till'n'fills requiring cooperation. Neutral third parties (Sarutobi? Inuzaka?) lead.

Are there more flexible Hagoromo? You want to see their clan as complex and multifaceted, not just Ruka and Ritsuo.

Sealing Research:

Directional Explosives/the next Minato seal.

Eschew prep, use SSA, reroll -9/-12.

I think that giving Ino a beautiful, nigh-indestructible mirror is a great idea and I encourage everyone to steal it.

I'm very interested in whether Asuma believes that Ruka is capable of change: if he says 'honestly no probably not' then...that's...I have no idea what to do with that other than to maybe go 'well uh okay perhaps an effective death penalty is the right move'. The answer should be interesting, at any rate.

And I think that asking him if their refusal to officiate Noburi's marriage was the Will of Fire is a pretty good question, especially in a segment where the tone is pretty clearly 'this is all pointless'.

I absolutely love half this plan, the ES and especially Hagoromo conversation is beautifully approached. being with Ino is really good, but we're booth grieving. "gossip and fashion" likley isn't what either of us want or need right now.
The big thing it's missing it mentioning the timeline/tower leak to Asuma, gathering spices for Canvass, pushing for a mindscan on Ruka(while still being forgiving if it comes up clean), and anything else time-sensitive and Akane related.
if you added the investigation aspects, and I'd love to vote for it.

[EDIT: giving out a giant sculpted precious gem would reveal that we can do some kind of gem manipulation, as opposed to buying them from the 7th path. this limits of options for economic fuckery. hold of till we've talked with someone who knows our economic options better.(or swear Ino to temporary secrecy, I guess?]

acidshill said:
[X] Interlude: Emma's Arrival at the Conclave

(I don't know if Velorien wants to write this, but like... we do need the information at some point, so I'll put a vote in.)

[X] Interlude: Emma's Arrival at the Conclave

(If Velorien wants to)

[x] Noburi Training Plan: Medknow

Needed for A-Day

[ ] Kei Training Plan: Frozen Skein

Sure, I guess? would like to hear a bit more about why before I vote for it, but sounds reasonable.

Lysbeth Succubus · May 8, 2023

_The_Bomb said:
Most naturally talented member of the Gōketsu.

Is this a Honoka Stan Post™ or an actual observation based on XP rate or something? Either way I'll be forced to say you're right I just don't know if it's factual based on maths or factual based on love

RandomOTP · May 8, 2023

Left-Hand Mutant said:
[ ] Kei Training Plan: Frozen Skein

Sure, I guess? would like to hear a bit more about why before I vote for it, but sounds reasonable.

Okay, so the Frozen Skein Bloodline is powerful, right? It's an omni-buff that can be applied to any roll, and its (main) limiter is how high your Resolve Stat is. Well, Kei's Resolve stat is already super high because of FOOM. So that means that, unlike most people, Kei's limiter on how powerful her Frozen Skein Omni-buff is... is how high her Frozen Skein level is.

I've attached a more detailed analysis down below. You can click on it to read the full thing (and the full mechanics for the Frozen Skein), but I've quoted the relevant segments of @Inferno Vulpix's analysis.

Inferno Vulpix said:
...This leads us to the actual Frozen Skein roll. Even a +40 bonus would have a TN of 80 to hit, so right out of the gate we know that the Frozen Skein skill is our main limiter here.

Inferno Vulpix said:
This bonus scales up quickly and smoothly as we level Frozen Skein, since our maximum safe Resolve threshold is so high.

Inferno Vulpix said:
As a buff, Frozen Skein doesn't seem overly strong without more leveling, but closer inspection would note that "all rolls" is a very powerful statement to have. It can be taken as granted that characters will be at their buff limit for main combat stats and such, but there are plenty of stats that we have no buffs in at all. In a buff-sparse environment, FS is not competing against other strong buffs for room, it just needs to be good in its own right.

Inferno Vulpix said:
Overall, I would say this is definitely worth leveling, given that it is an omni-buff and thus counts as a buff for any and every stat that doesn't have any buffs. It's fantastically flexible for any situation where Kei is rolling stats she doesn't mainline, which makes it fantastic even with the drawbacks. Given more levels, it also becomes a pretty potent buff to combat skills. FS 40 gives a safe TN of 34 for a bonus of +13 after Apathy. +13 is strong, stronger than most buffs get. In situations where Kei needs to hit the absolute top peak number she possibly can, FS is probably part of that.

Velorien · May 8, 2023

Cariyaga said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped Would it be possible to get a stunt to learn 3D sealing with at this point, representing the specialized practice necessary?

Not at this time. The stunt exists but you do not meet the requirements.

Egg Shavings · May 8, 2023

[X] Action Plan: Reflection

Left-Hand Mutant · May 8, 2023

RandomOTP said:
Okay, so the Frozen Skein Bloodline is powerful, right? It's an omni-buff that can be applied to any roll, and its (main) limiter is how high your Resolve Stat is. Well, Kei's Resolve stat is already super high because of FOOM. So that means that, unlike most people, Kei's limiter on how powerful her Frozen Skein Omni-buff is... is how high her Frozen Skein level is.

I've attached a more detailed analysis down below. You can click on it to read the full thing (and the full mechanics for the Frozen Skein), but I've quoted the relevant segments of @Inferno Vulpix's analysis.

Thanks, and thanks @Inferno Vulpix .
[X] Kei Training Plan: Frozen Skein

Threnodist · May 8, 2023

[X] Noburi Training Plan: Helping Others

RandomOTP · May 8, 2023

Velorien said:
Not at this time. The stunt exists but you do not meet the requirements.

I'm sure the answer is some variation of HDK, but just in case... does Hazou have an inkling of what it would take to unlock the stunt, much like he now has an idea of what it would take to learn the Biosealing stunt?

RandomOTP · May 8, 2023

Boosting this

RandomOTP said:
[x] Noburi Training Plan: Medknow
Medknow 47 -> 49 (-10 banked lootbox XP, -87 general XP)

(117 - 87) = 30 general XP remaining

[x] Kei Training Plan: Frozen Skein
Frozen Skein 20 -> 29 (-392)

(467 - 450) = 17 XP Remaining

ProperAttorney · May 8, 2023

RandomOTP said:
I'm sure the answer is some variation of HDK, but just in case... does Hazou have an inkling of what it would take to unlock the stunt, much like he now has an idea of what it would take to learn the Biosealing stunt?

EJ replied to a comment I made earlier. Direction seems to be "Level ES even more" which does line up with the feeling Hazo got from the jutsu.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

occupying Haudenosaunee & Osage land she/her/hers