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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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I missed the extended details on Elemental Mastery. If I'm following, it takes some (large?) volume of space and (instantly?) sets the equilibrium temperature of everything inside that volume to some value? So the idea is you pick a really cold equilibrium temperature, liquefy the air (so -191 degrees?), and the vacuum creates high winds until the full volume is filled with liquid air, with the assumption the high winds and gravity will move a lot of the liquid air out making room for new air to rush in?

Can Akane really reach -191 degrees? That's impressive and terrifying as a weapon in its own right. Can the altered temperature volumes move, or be anchored to something that can move? How large can the volume be?


I'd also suggest we think very carefully before informing Ruri about the plot. The Pangolins know Kei doesn't support the occupation. They know she's wracked with guilt. They know the Condor summoner is now in her village, and are beginning to understand what a village even is. It's entirely possible this operation is at least partially a test for information leaks. If you thought Cannai was mad when Hazou chatted with some dogs without his consent, you really do not want to see Pantsaa if he finds out Kei leaked this operation to the Condor resistance. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but if the Pangolins have managed to get themselves a spy in the resistance (they have a lot of leverage, it's not beyond the realm of possibility), informing Ruri may get Kei executed for treason.

Kei's warning about Ruri roughly says, "I give you permission to inform Ruri, but be very careful to impress upon her the consequences if it becomes known among the Condors that I am the source of this warning. Further, I am concerned the Condors will take this information and, rather than abandon their planned attack, simply attempt to plan their attack more effectively."
 
If we're going to do something about Ruri and Kei, we should ideally involves her constellation of friends and allies to make it go without a hitch.
 
Shrooms said:
[X] Action Plan: Hope for the Best, Plan for the Worst
Word Count: 290
  • Nara
    • Discuss Otter/Sand strategy with war advisors.
    • Sand False Flag Operation:
      • If ploy fails, Sand might join Rock instead. Additionally, we're weakening an ally who's already weak.
      • Instead of committing false flag against Sand, try performing false flag against Rock, posing as Sand?
        • If ploy fails, operation is still valuable because it weakens our enemies. If successful, we can retreat into Wind Country to bait Rock into invading.
        • There's less risk of turning an ally against ourselves.
      • Alternatively, no false flag at all? Jutsu and clan techniques are distinctive. Other concessions could be offered to Sand instead to get their ninja deployed, better food deals or money perhaps. The Scroll, even.
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[X] Action Plan: Hope for the Best, Plan for the Worst

I like the amendment, @Shrooms

I also felt that we could make a stronger argument about supporting our ally, not stabbing them in the back, and all that jazz for both Will of Fire and pragmatics reasons.
 
[X] Training Kei: Snowflake Promise Progress

Note that Kei is now CR limited, not Resolve limited. She needs CR 30 next.

[X] Action Plan: Hope for the Best, Plan for the Worst

Don't have the time to inspect in detail atm, but these are the scenes I would want to see.
 
Sir Stompy said:
I feel strongly that we should rearrange Akane's pyramid this training plan, this could be our last chance to ever do so. She needs it for FOOM. It is kind of important.
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Shrooms said:
Voting in the resolve jump fixes it, no?
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Sir Stompy said:
That's my understanding, @Paperclipped is that right?
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Akane is currently at 5/4/4/3/1. If we jump, she goes to 5/4/3/3/2.

If she doesn't jump, we would need to:
  • Upgrade 10 to 20, 20 to 30, Resolve 30 to 40: 4/4/4/4/1
  • Resolve 40 to 50: 4/4/4/3/2
This is a little tighter at the bottom than at the top, but is not fundamentally different, since Akane has enough support stats (PKH, GS, FA, EM, Deceit) that we'd want to level eventually. Resolve jumping sooner saves XP, obviously, but Akane's pyramids aren't messed up in any particular way.

Planning builds without jumps requires longer term planning than just to Resolve 50, and I haven't considered that yet.
 
Random Word said:
I missed the extended details on Elemental Mastery. If I'm following, it takes some (large?) volume of space and (instantly?) sets the equilibrium temperature of everything inside that volume to some value?
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We don't actually know very much for certain, mostly because the QM rules never formalized things that concretely, and partly because the hivemind never votes for mad science, probably a scientist scared their firstborns or something. Right now we don't even know if CO₂ deposition is happening. That said, I did suggest a formalism that I thought best captured the intent, which then @eaglejarl appreciated but did not ever explicitly endorse as canonical. In that model, after the initial cast, the cooling down happens spatially as the gas travels from outside the area of effect to inside the area of effect. Your understanding is broadly correct if that model holds.

Akane right now has Elemental Mastery at level 20, which produces a 100 °C delta. This is enough to cause dry ice formation, but only about half way to a sustained effect that would condense major atmospheric components, particularly nitrogen, oxygen, and argon.

The area of effect is one zone, and stationary. It takes 2 rounds to fully take effect, aka. 'a few seconds', which is a bit clumsy for use in combat but still potentially effective if used right. I don't know whether those 2 rounds require active concentration, but I assume they do. Hazō should know, though. The jutsu lasts concentration plus 10 minutes per level.

I'd also suggest we think very carefully before informing Ruri about the plot.
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Particularly, ask for teaching on how to be an effective double agent.
 
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Shrooms said:
[X] Action Plan: Hope for the Best, Plan for the Worst
Word Count: 290
  • Nara
    • Discuss Otter/Sand strategy with war advisors.
    • Sand False Flag Operation:
      • If ploy fails, Sand might join Rock instead. Additionally, we're weakening an ally who's already weak.
      • Instead of committing false flag against Sand, try performing false flag against Rock, posing as Sand?
        • If ploy fails, operation is still valuable because it weakens our enemies. If successful, we can retreat into Wind Country to bait Rock into invading.
        • There's less risk of turning an ally against ourselves.
      • Alternatively, no false flag at all? Jutsu and clan techniques are distinctive. Other concessions could be offered to Sand instead to get their ninja deployed, better food deals or money perhaps. The Scroll, even.
    • Otter Hunters
      • Necessary roles (some may overlap):
        • Two Combat Specs.
          • Suggestions: Yuno, Akane, a Summoner such as Kei or Ruri
        • Social Spec/Infiltrator, for coaxing info out of locals without giving away ninja-ness.
          • Suggestions: Mari, a Yamanaka, Anko
        • Tracker/Scout/Anti-Ambush, for locating the Scroll and any useful locations our intel gives us.
          • Suggestions: Hazou (he can acquire Summons), an Inuzuka
        • Hyuuga or Sasuke for detecting the Scroll's chakra signature.
          • Suggestions: Neji, Sasuke
        • A Summoner.
          • Suggestions: Hazou, Kei, Neji, Ruri
      • Possible concerns:
        • Inuzuka dogs, Hyuuga eyes, Aburame glasses, Summon Scrolls are all distinctive. Perhaps team could be granted ANBU masks to hide byakugan?
      • Additionally:
        • Hazou or Mari should stay to help run Goketsu, don't send both.
  • Ruri
    • Optimize with Mari
    • Pass on Kei's messages. Subtext: Pangolins visiting Condor is a trap for Condor resistance and their informants may be compromised/fed false info.
    • "Completely unrelated" to Kei's advice, Kei blames herself for the Condor situation but Hazou shares it. DRAGONWAR necessitates potentially distasteful cooperation, but the Condors' plight is something he wants to help fix afterward.
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Is it possible to get rid of the Ruri section so that we can more fully focus on the False Flag operation?
 
[X] Kei SC SOP: Snowflake Season

also, wait. Starting a nuke seems kinda unyouthful. Like, does she walk up and say "The truly youthful mind doesn't notice the cold," and follow that with an ENDLESS CITY-DESTROYING TORNADO? Doesn't seem to fit Akane's character.
 
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@eaglejarl @Velorien Are ANBU Agents ever attached to non-ANBU missions? Besides Asuma, is there an ANBU commander?

False flag operations (and just fully deniable operations in general) seem like they should really be ANBU territory, who are the experts in not being detected, misdirection, and not leaving any trace that would point fingers back to Leaf. In the interest of the punching and not giving EJ an aneurism, I'm going to refrain from suggesting this mission be completely black ops (where we will never so much as hear the details of) and instead suggest we attach an ANBU operative to the mission roster (in uniform, not plainclothes) for the purposes of making sure the group doesn't accidentally or unknowingly leave any signs revealing the op.
 
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Not a big fan of current plan. May make my own later, if I can spare the spoons far enough away from the deadline to give people a chance to review and vote. Anyone have any suggestions for improvements on the false flag/otter operation?
 
Velorien said:
There is also the question of what the Gōketsu can offer the heir of two clans who has limited personal needs and could get a chakra pony from the Hokage if he wanted to (especially right now).
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I haven't seen much discussion on this, but I think the argument would be along the lines of: clan ninja do better than non-clan ninja, more resources, more support, better training, special clan-specific benefits, etc. Also, getting ninja into clans strengthens Leaf and the Will of Fire because it connects them more intricately with Leaf than the loose connection of non-clan ninja. You have two adoption tickets, so you should adopt some ninja - I know you're a Clan of one, I know you don't want to run a Clan, but it's better for Leaf and the ninja themselves if they're adopted. Goketsu right now has a bunch of estate ninja we've been feeding, housing, enriching, etc. since the aftermath of the Collapse. They want to join the clan, if we could adopt them all today then we would. If you don't want to adopt some non-clan ninja can you let us help these ninja and finally adopt them?

Alternatively, get some of the ninja to personally ask Naruto to please give Goketsu the tickets so they can join a clan properly.

Naruto has no real interest in enlarging his Clan (at least right now), has no interest in running a Clan, and the adoption tickets don't really matter to him. A relatively small emotional push would probably be sufficiently compelling to get him to agree.
 
Why do people want more adoption slots? We haven't done anything with the people we have already recruited. We can't cut them in to FOOM. What's the point of having them other than number of ninja go up so must be good? I really feel like how it helps achieve any goals in the quest?
 
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Oneiros said:
Why do people want more adoption slots? We haven't done anything with the people we have already recruited. We can't cut them in to FOOM. What's the point of having them other than number of ninja go up so must be good? I really feel like how it helps achieve any goals in the quest?
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Getting more Sealmasters or Technique Hackers would be nice. Also, another social spec/genjutsu user/infiltrator to fill in for Mari when she's busy and for her to pass techniques onto would be nice too. Medics for medical research etc
 
Oneiros said:
Why do people want more adoption slots? We haven't done anything with the people we have already recruited. We can't cut them in to FOOM. What's the point of having them other than number of ninja go up so must be good? I really feel like how it helps achieve any goals in the quest?
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There's an incongruence between estate ninja not being Goketsu in all but name due to the system limitation, and civilian Goketsu being Goketsu. It's more about making our supporters happy than anything else.

Shrooms said:
Getting more Sealmasters or Technique Hackers would be nice. Also, another social spec/genjutsu user/infiltrator to fill in for Mari when she's busy and for her to pass techniques onto would be nice too. Medics for medical research etc
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Getting more adoption slots doesn't help us with making estate ninja better. It's more a symbolic gesture than anything else.

Getting Sealmasters and TH training is something we can either do ourselves or trade resources for. More specialized and better training is great, but it doesn't make them more symbolically Goketsu.
 
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eaglejarl said:
He shrugged. "Shikamaru and I have been discussing it, trying to decide if it can be done in a way that's worth it. Sand isn't stupid; they'll know that us pulling a false flag would be to our advantage and they would have to weigh who would gain the most from whatever ploy we use. Still.
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@eaglejarl @Velorien
Would it be possible learn what ideas and potential concerns have been already discussed before we propose a detailed plan with very little info? I think going into this meeting with a half-informed plan wouldn't be very useful and I'd rather not delay the Otter mission by another chapter by devoting this coming update to a meeting where Shikamaru shoots down nearly all our ideas for [information or reason X that the thread didn't know but he already discussed]. So, would it be possible to just get a summary of what's already been discussed now by "talking to Shikamaru offscreen" right now?
 
_The_Bomb said:
Anyone have any suggestions for improvements on the false flag/otter operation?
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Well, I had thought of this earlier:

Ipsos Custodes said:
My thoughts:
Primary mission is (a) get Otter Scroll and (b) not be identified as Leaf.

(b) is accomplished either by (c) stealth or by (d) false flag, but even in the stealth version we masquerade as Rock ninja (in case the stealth option fails).

A potential course of action is for Hazou to Skywalk to Mountain/Fang, locate the Scroll with the aid of a Hyuga, an Aburame, the Condor summoner, and a Chunin/Special Jonin who is an earth element jutsu specialist. This satisfies (a).

Next, return through Wind dressed as Rock ninja, Condor summons, Hyuga magic eyeballs, and Aburame magic bugs identify Wind positions from a distance without being identified.

If (d) use our greater positional knowledge to get "caught" by a Sand patrol that we can reasonably expect to beat without identifiable Leaf clan techniques being used/escape from them. Having both Hazou and the earth jutsu specialist Hiding Like a Mole to get away from they Sand patrol, and otherwise use MEW, etc. to slow down/stop the pursuit would be important - and makes Hazou's role in this mission important since there aren't that many earth element ninja in Leaf.

If (c) then use our greater positional knowledge to *avoid* getting caught (for real) by a Sand patrol and bring back the Scroll to Asuma.

An alternative version of (d) is that we get caught *before* getting the Scroll and "retreat" towards Rock, but then go to Mountain/Fang and get the Scroll and then Skywalk home, otherwise we need to pretend that we're some sort of advance group scouting the route to attack Leaf from through Sand, and then retreat towards Leaf (for some reason) when we're escaping from the Sand patrol. Though I suppose we can flee in any direction and then just Skywalk after nightfall and go back to Leaf.
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eaglejarl said:
He shrugged. "Shikamaru and I have been discussing it, trying to decide if it can be done in a way that's worth it. Sand isn't stupid; they'll know that us pulling a false flag would be to our advantage and they would have to weigh who would gain the most from whatever ploy we use. Still.

"I want you to put together a plan and a team selection for a mission to search out the Otter Scroll. I'm sure you'll want to use Gōketsu ninja for that; you're welcome to do that, but consider alternative options as well. Take a Summoner with you so that we can coordinate at range—not Noburi, Tsunade, or Orochimaru. I need them here. Coordinate with Shikamaru and the war council, bring me two plans within the next week.
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There seems to be some confusion on my plan and our input for the False-Flag mission.

We aren't actually planning it. We are not suggesting personnel to send, or putting a team together. Asuma asked us to help put a team together for the Otter mission. There are some suggestions in my plan, suggesting we don't do what Asuma mentioned they were considering - they were on the fence about it for a reason.

So that is why, in my plan, the suggested personnel is exclusively for the Otter Hunt which is an entirely different mission.
Shrooms said:
  • Sand False Flag Operation:
    • If ploy fails, Sand might join Rock instead. Additionally, we're weakening an ally who's already weak.
    • Instead of committing false flag against Sand, try performing false flag against Rock, posing as Sand?
      • If ploy fails, operation is still valuable because it weakens our enemies. If successful, we can retreat into Wind Country to bait Rock into invading.
      • There's less risk of turning an ally against ourselves.
    • Alternatively, no false flag at all? Jutsu and clan techniques are distinctive. Other concessions could be offered to Sand instead to get their ninja deployed, better food deals or money perhaps. The Scroll, even.
  • Otter Hunters
    • Necessary roles for Otter Hunt (some may overlap):
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Shrooms said:
There seems to be some confusion on my plan and our input for the False-Flag mission.

We aren't actually planning it. We are not suggesting personnel to send, or putting a team together. Asuma asked us to help put a team together for the Otter mission. There are some suggestions in my plan, suggesting we don't do what Asuma mentioned they were considering - they were on the fence about it for a reason.

So that is why, in my plan, the suggested personnel is exclusively for the Otter Hunt which is an entirely different mission.
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I don't think you made it any more clear?

Just say that Otter hunt team selection is separate from false flag team.
 
Shrooms said:
There seems to be some confusion on my plan and our input for the False-Flag mission.

We aren't actually planning it. We are not suggesting personnel to send, or putting a team together. Asuma asked us to help put a team together for the Otter mission.
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I don't feel like you read the chapter closely enough. Asuma wants us to design two options for the "retrieve Otter scroll mission." One will have "full stealth" as a parameter and one will have "false flag" as a parameter.
eaglejarl said:
"I want you to put together a plan and a team selection for a mission to search out the Otter Scroll. I'm sure you'll want to use Gōketsu ninja for that; you're welcome to do that, but consider alternative options as well. Take a Summoner with you so that we can coordinate at range—not Noburi, Tsunade, or Orochimaru. I need them here. Coordinate with Shikamaru and the war council, bring me two plans within the next week.

"Both plans will involve a team going to Wind and searching for the Otter Scroll. One plan will include running a false flag while the first mission is in progress. The second plan will focus on stealth and remaining unnoticed. I would presume that in either case the team would go in disguise as Rock ninja"—he waved casually at his ashtray—"Sage knows we have plenty of their headbands and clothes. If for some reason Shikamaru and the rest think that's unwise then I'll entertain their reasoning.
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He even explicitly asked us to bring him the second plan.
 
Okay, I think me and IV have figured out where the confusion is coming from.
eaglejarl said:
Both plans will involve a team going to Wind and searching for the Otter Scroll. One plan will include running a false flag while the first mission is in progress. The second plan will focus on stealth and remaining unnoticed.
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Does "Running a false flag while the first mission is in progress" mean there is a second team acting concurrently with the Otter Hunters or are the Otter Hunters supposed to be wreaking havoc as fake rock nin and then looking for the Scroll after they've stirred Sand up?
@eaglejarl @Velorien

It seems weird to me that the team would intentionally stir up Sand and then hang out in their lands. But if the intent was that a second false flag team causes mayhem elsewhere and draws Sand's attention away, that makes more sense imo.
 
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[X] Action Plan: More Clearer
Word Count: 293
  • Nara
    • Discuss Otter/Sand strategy with war advisors..
    • Otter Hunters
      • Necessary roles for Otter Hunt (some may overlap):
        • Two Combat Specs.
          • Suggestions: Yuno, Akane, a Summoner such as Kei or Ruri
        • Social Spec/Infiltrator, for coaxing info out of locals without giving away ninja-ness.
          • Suggestions: Mari, a Yamanaka, Anko
        • Tracker/Scout/Anti-Ambush, for locating the Scroll and any useful locations our intel gives us.
          • Suggestions: Hazou (he can acquire Summons), an Inuzuka
        • Hyuuga or Sasuke for detecting the Scroll's chakra signature.
          • Suggestions: Neji, Sasuke
        • A Summoner.
          • Suggestions: Hazou, Kei, Neji, Ruri
      • Possible concerns:
        • Inuzuka dogs, Hyuuga eyes, Aburame glasses, Summon Scrolls are all distinctive. Perhaps team could be granted ANBU masks to hide byakugan?
      • Additionally:
        • Hazou or Mari should stay to help run Goketsu, don't send both.
    • Recommend against False Flag move.
      • Otter Team shouldn't be used at all as their composition is too different from of a likely Rock team.
      • Recommend a dedicated Earth ninjutsu team or plan a false flag Sand mission against Rock instead.
      • Sand's too strategically important now and in the future to damage our relationship with.
 
Veedrac said:
Do we know how big villages are, roughly?
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Leaf is roughly one square mile, maybe a bit more.


Veedrac said:
It's less the tornado that would get them, more the flood, and if they avoid the flood, then their crops freeze.

Not that it's foolproof, but note she'd be casting through a Shadow Clone, with Prime doing much more normal alibi-generating things at Leaf.
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Note that a shadow clone cannot go more than 0.5 x AB miles from its creator.

Paperclipped said:
Will this be for the duration of the experiment, or anticipating forever?
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At least the experiment. We'll reevaluate when we get there.

Kiba said:
There's a bit of player confusion between me and @Sir Stompy regarding diplomats in Doggos territory. He thought Panda is still in Doggos territory, I thought Panda have relocated since the Concave. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a need for Noburi to search for a toad diplomat for communication purposes, as opposed to empowerment for Zoo rush strategy.
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Pandā is still on the eastern border of Dog.


_The_Bomb said:
Are ANBU Agents ever attached to non-ANBU missions? Besides Asuma, is there an ANBU commander?
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We'll get back to you on that.
Shrooms said:
Does "Running a false flag while the first mission is in progress" mean there is a second team acting concurrently with the Otter Hunters or are the Otter Hunters supposed to be wreaking havoc as fake rock nin and then looking for the Scroll after they've stirred Sand up?
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Asuma gave you his strategic intent and is leaving you to figure out the implementation.
 
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eaglejarl said:
The embassy had assigned a room for Noburi and the relevant contractees to wait in while the operation went down. Hariman of the Porcupine Clan, Kamao of the Turtle Clan, Hebissa of the Snake Clan, and of course Pandā of the Pangolin Clan. All of them young and nigh-useless as combatants but with a heavy dose of wanderlust. Finding them and convincing them to travel hundreds of miles to the Pangolin Territory had been one of the most difficult parts of the preparations for the assault.

"Go fish," Noburi said.
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eaglejarl said:
Pandā is still on the eastern border of Dog.
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Are you saying that Panda is representing the Pangolins at the Conclave along with being the Pangolin representative in Doggos territory?
 
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