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Honestly can't recall. I remember it being a proposed addition when I originally posted the very first iteration of this plan and I added it accordingly, then carried it over. I think it might've been a meeting about the Keiko Clones, or for a plan for which Ami never clarified the intent? Although, now that I'm typing this out, I seem to recall that Ami had an unvoiced idea that she wanted to run by us moments befor she was all but ferried away to Mist in chains.
Please please make it clear what's being talked about, and it might be also a good idea to change it slightly if you plan to keep it: my gut instinct told me that we were agreeing to her plan, which obviously isn't a good idea or what was actually said but it sure felt like it upon a first glance.
 
Please please make it clear what's being talked about, and it might be also a good idea to change it slightly if you plan to keep it: my gut instinct told me that we were agreeing to her plan, which obviously isn't a good idea or what was actually said but it sure felt like it upon a first glance.
How does this look? Might rework that last line a little bit. It's become a bit too formal/business-y for what I'm aiming for (though, considering our partnership with Ami is sorta business-esque, maybe that's not a bad thing?).

Anyway, I clarified the topic of discussion, what do you think?

  • Right before you were called back to Mist, you mentioned you had an idea? If you'd still like to discuss it, we'd be willing to meet with you at a time/place of your choosing.
  • Either way, you have a permanent seat at our dinner table.
[/QUOTE
 
[X] Plan: Spread The Love
Word Count: 174

Goketsu Clan Support:
  • The Hagaromo are gaining a ninja who knows sealing as a result, increasing their value to leaf.
    • You can contribute to Leaf without helping your rivals though.
      • Encouraging more frequent Game Nights or Game Tournaments. (Strategy and Tactics training or practice). Coordinate with Gaku. Invite Sasuke and Lgbtq ninja from last time as well.
      • Propose coordination with the Academy to Ebisu by incentivizing students with extra credits for Game Night participation. Run it by Asuma if it's a go.
        • If not, substitute with 1hr after-academy tutoring.
    • Genin and above get 4 of each non-military seals (Vibration seals, storage scrolls, etc) for 1 st place, 3 for 2nd place, and 2 for 3rd place.
    • Obtain necessary permissions if needed for sale of seals is needed.
    • Sanity check with Mari and Kagome
Ami-Style Training:
  • Haru, want to join?
    • Disguise ourselves as another person. Convince five people that you're [the person you're disguised as] disguised as Hazou/Haru.
    • Pick his brain about the new trio and how to support them better.
 
Honestly can't recall. I remember it being a proposed addition when I originally posted the very first iteration of this plan and I added it accordingly, then carried it over. I think it might've been a meeting about the Keiko Clones, or for a plan for which Ami never clarified the intent? Although, now that I'm typing this out, I seem to recall that Ami had an unvoiced idea that she wanted to run by us moments befor she was all but ferried away to Mist in chains.
Iirc, there was some plan she told us about before she got carted off that sounded exactly like one of ours, except it was slightly different and said by Ami so it actually had a chance of getting past Keiko. Something designed to create peace on the 7th path, I think.

Might have been the 7th path trade network?
 
The first bullet, to me, feel like we're saying "We expected better from you, and we're sorry that we were wrong about that"; the second claims that we're still willing to work with you as equals (is that interpretation correct?), but I feel that Ami has done a greater share of work of stuff in comparison to us, so it sorta falls flat.

I dunno, maybe 'justify' was the wrong word. I got the image of Hazou being this holier-than-though character acting disappointed but still willing to work together despite Ami's actions leading them to having conflict, which...I don't think Ami will respond well to that.

Allright, I can see that. The idea here is that while Ami wronged us, Mari punished her, and we're willing to let bygones be bygones and move on. The problem with this is that Ami doesn't think she did anything wrong, so forgiving her in general is going to look like a meaningless social ritual to her. However, it is very clear, at least to me, that she actually did not expect Hazou's reaction, and is somewhat childishly upset about it, treating it as a betrayal of sorts. The point of framing the reconciliation the way I did, was to make her realize that this feeling is mutual - that Hazou also feels this way about her, that he didn't expect her to cross certain lines.

Ami is very smart, but not very mature or self-aware. I'm hoping to improve that by making her more likely to treat Hazou as, to borrow another poster's terminology, more like another human being rather than an NPC. From yours and @RandomOTP's comments, it seems like I need to work more on making Hazou's mindset clearer on this.

These parts feel mutually exclusive. It feels as though Hazou is staking the moral high ground and saying, oh-so-generously, that "we were wrong to expect better from you, but we're mature enough to continue working with you in spite of your flaws."

Further, I don't like how it asserts a claim on Ami's familial knowledge. While I've mused about it as a possibility, it's also possible that Ami does understand and simply has trouble putting that theory into practice. Or maybe this is genuinely how Ami expresses her familial affections. Look at the power dynamic she has with Kieko. Ami could do almost anything to Kieko would forgive Ami for it --sweeping it under the "Ami has a plan I cannot foresee" umbrella or the "I'm so worthless that I deserve this" umbrella.

Do I think these possibilities are as likely? Not quite. But I worry that (with the wording as it currently is) Hazou will come across as high-handed, moralizing, and snobbish. That might not be the intent of the plan, and that might not be Hazou's intent when he says it, but Hazou is a fallible/realistic character and has a habit of dining on his foot, especially when he's earnest. Remember, Hazou-the-character accidentally implied to Orochimaru that he, a teenage missing-nin from a foreign country with a clanless ninja's education, would know how to lead the Goketsu Clan than Orochimaru of the Sannin (back when we were still trying to convince him not to slaughter us all for squatting in his home) and got his soul brutalized for it.

But yeah, this plan's overarching tone comes across as too patronizing for me to be comfortable voting for it.

The not knowing how to have a family part is something Ami herself told us, in these exact words:
"Ami," he said carefully, looking into her eyes, "would you like to be family?"

"Hazō," she said equally carefully, "I have no idea what that means."

In general, I try to be careful about what I assert as truth in these sections, vs what is simply conjecture based on evidence. Ami being isolated and developing her social prowess as a defense mechanism is conjecture, and phrased as such, for example.

More generally, the mindset I was trying to put Hazou in is less that of condescension for Ami being stupid and immature, and more empathy in the vein of this section:
"We don't know what it's like to have normal families. Keiko, you and I had our lives revolve around a single person, and we lost them two years ago, and even if we can get them back, the kind of relationship we had back then is gone forever. Kagome-sensei was alone for too long, and on some level he's still getting his head around what it means to have friends. Mari-sensei's family destroyed her. Noburi, you're an exception except when you aren't, and I guess Akane's normal because of course she is. And Jiraiya's an orphan with a weird, tangled family that keeps leaving him behind. Maybe one day I'll even consider him one of us, as soon as he stops using fear to keep us in line.

As in, like most of the team, Ami is simpy someone damaged by their circumstances. We don't look down on Keiko due to her issues, and we shouldn't do so for Ami here. I'll make edits later today in an attempt to make this clearer, as both you and faflec interpreted the tone of the plan this way.
 
it's all in good fun until someone puts on a youthsuit.
Hey, that was one time, years ago. I tell ya, can never catch a break.

  • Tone: We're supposed to be equal partners, so let's achieve mutual understanding
If Hazō's mental state is "We're supposed to be equal partners", then this feels like it's just going to blow up in our face, because we don't have any way of getting Ami to see that thought as anything more than a direct insult to her.

He isn't on her level mentally, or from a raw power perspective, and while he is her equivalent or theoretically superior, socially, that's an explicit source of power that she's actively shown a disregard for, in roughly the same vein as us; both Hazō and Ami treat social power is a tool, rather than a measure of worth, unlike much of the rest of the society.

Our goal is to get to a place of equal partners, and I think the overall gist of the plan (ie ensure explicit, concrete, mutual understanding) is going to be useful in getting us closer to that place, but ultimately that's because we're trying to walk Ami through the process of accepting that boundaries need to be allowed to ever exist, without them being forcibly imposed.

However, as I'm writing this out, I think that there may need to be a period of reflection on Hazō's part as well. While not the same, this is to an extent the issue that Hazō continues to have as well; he has identified and set his own personal boundaries, but is pathologically incapable of respecting those that others may or may not have if he's unable to derive them from first principles on his own or is forced to by someone with more power than him.

Ultimately, it seems as though this update aims to straddle the lines between "share goals/values with Ami in the hopes that she will agree and derive acceptance of our boundaries from her own first principles" and "help Ami to grow into the ally that we want her to be". I'm not sure if we can just shove some introspection into Hazō by having him think about this conversation, apply it to his own life, and then use that personal growth as a way of informing an approach to working with Ami, but I think that would be a stronger move overall if possible.
 
Made some edits, changed some stuff around. I'm not super happy about the result, but there isn't much more time left, and I'm loathe to edit close to the deadline, so it'd have to be a really good suggestion for me to change anything. @MMKII @Lord Marshal @Sentient Tree @MadScientist @TarzanNn @Tua @Eisenhelm plx review and make sure you want to vote for this.

FYI, because this caused some confusion, the line about the transitive property has nothing to do with cooperation or alliances, it's completely about familial bonds. Included a link to make that clear.

I still don't really like the way this vote goes about addressing Ami, and don't expect it to give good results. Here's an alternative approach.

[X] Action Plan: A light touch
Word count: 296

1. Reconcile with Ami:
  1. Thoughts:
    • Ami doesn't understand what family is. She's probably always been isolated by her own brilliance and her social prowess is as much a necessary defense mechanism as a weapon.
    • Hazou might literally be her first real friend. And she's probably genuinely hurt by his reluctance to play along with her scheme.
    • However, she hurt Hazou, then doubled down on it, only conceding to overwhelming force. Either too prideful to admit fault, or too self-absorbed to even see it as such.
    • The clan already sports a bunch of socially-maladjusted misfits, Hazou himself included. In that sense, Ami would fit right in.
    • Hazou doesn't want to push her away, but if she wants to be more than an ally of convenience, she'll need to change her thinking.
    • We got through to Keiko eventually. There's hope,
  2. Tone: Be empathetic, don't push, and give her space.
  3. Message
    • Apologize, for not being what she'd hoped we'd be.
    • Does she want forgiveness? She can have it, if so.
    • All in all, we've been getting along fairly well thus far, so continue and see where we end up?
    • The transitive property stays in place. How much importance Ami places on her end of it though, is up to her. The Goketsu's end is willing, if she chooses to make the effort.
    • For now, friends again?
  4. Do something together. Either let her pick or come up with something unusual. Maybe she wants to go study the afterlife?
2. Portal Research
  • Grab Kagome, Keiko and Akane (schedules permitting, if not, then Haru), and Ami if she's willing
  • Research the area where the afterlife portal was
  • Can you detect anything weird?
    • Do storage seals act up?
    • Does the chakdar sense a deadzone of chakra?
    • Does infusing simple seals feel any different?
Stole that last section from @RandomOTP, but removed Harumitsu due to opsec concerns. I don't think we want to show our hand to Hagoromo this way so easily.
 
Made some edits, changed some stuff around. I'm not super happy about the result, but there isn't much more time left, and I'm loathe to edit close to the deadline, so it'd have to be a really good suggestion for me to change anything. @MMKII @Lord Marshal @Sentient Tree @MadScientist @TarzanNn @Tua @Eisenhelm plx review and make sure you want to vote for this.

FYI, because this caused some confusion, the line about the transitive property has nothing to do with cooperation or alliances, it's completely about familial bonds. Included a link to make that clear.

I think this treats Ami in a more thoughtful and realistic way than the other plan. Even offering forgiveness if she wants it is likely to offend her pride, but the more important part is Hazou's thought-process, which is pretty good afaict.
 
Please don't hate me.

[X] Action Plan: A light touch without portals
Word count: Whatever whatever

Sanity-check with Mari beforehand.

Reconcile with Ami:
  1. Thoughts:
    • Ami doesn't understand what family is. She's probably always been isolated by her own brilliance and her social prowess is as much a necessary defense mechanism as a weapon.
    • Hazou might literally be her first real friend. And she's probably genuinely hurt by his reluctance to play along with her scheme.
    • However, she hurt Hazou, then doubled down on it, only conceding to overwhelming force. Either too prideful to admit fault, or too self-absorbed to even see it as such.
    • The clan already sports a bunch of socially-maladjusted misfits, Hazou himself included. In that sense, Ami would fit right in.
    • Hazou doesn't want to push her away, but if she wants to be more than an ally of convenience, she'll need to change her thinking.
    • We got through to Keiko eventually. There's hope,
  2. Tone: Be empathetic, don't push, and give her space.
  3. Message
    • Apologize, for not being what she'd hoped we'd be.
    • Does she want forgiveness? She can have it, if so.
    • All in all, we've been getting along fairly well thus far, so continue and see where we end up?
    • The transitive property stays in place. How much importance Ami places on her end of it though, is up to her. The Goketsu's end is willing, if she chooses to make the effort.
    • For now, friends again?
  4. Do something together. Either let her pick or come up with something unusual.
 
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Made some edits, changed some stuff around. I'm not super happy about the result, but there isn't much more time left, and I'm loathe to edit close to the deadline, so it'd have to be a really good suggestion for me to change anything. @MMKII @Lord Marshal @Sentient Tree @MadScientist @TarzanNn @Tua @Eisenhelm plx review and make sure you want to vote for this.

FYI, because this caused some confusion, the line about the transitive property has nothing to do with cooperation or alliances, it's completely about familial bonds. Included a link to make that clear.
May want to put in Hazou's thoughts that Ami may already have apologized during the engagement ceremony. It could help Hazō make some kind of epiphany to know that Ami did at least apologize in her own social spec way (as shown in the following quote).

And between the two, also in black with a single red ribbon around her waist, was Ami. Hazō was pretty sure that hadn't been one of the options in the briefing.

No, it had. Do not give a gift in a black container, as that symbolises sin, or the receiver having something to hide. If you have to, wrap it with a red ribbon to symbolise that it has been purified by blood spilled in atonement.
She's saying that she fucked up (black dress, symbolizing sin), but that she has atoned for it via 'traditional Gōketsu conflict resolution' (wearing a red ribbon to symbolize blood spilled in atonement).

I think this is likely to be Ami's idea of an apology. It at least seems to be admitting guilt.
 
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May want to put in Hazou's thoughts that Ami may already have apologized during the engagement ceremony. It could help Hazō make some kind of epiphany to know that Ami did at least apologize in her own social spec way (as shown in the following quote).


She's saying that she fucked up (black dress, symbolizing sin), but that she has atoned for it via 'traditional Gōketsu conflict resolution' (wearing a red ribbon to symbolize blood spilled in atonement).

I think this is likely to be Ami's idea of an apology. It at least seems to be admitting guilt.

What does she think she did wrong tho

(My point being, she may realize she fucked up in some capacity but we need to ensure she wants to atone for what we actually perceive as the slight, not some weird social thing Ami believes)
 
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