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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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I think that people should reread these relevant quotes from the last chapter. If you still feel like we are the baddies and not worrying about hurting the innocents after reviewing them please explain what else we should be doing. I think we should go more try damn far to hurt evildoers and protect the innocent
eaglejarl said:
The so-called 'Team Uplift' members were doing their best to stay on the right side of the 'no killing civilians'
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eaglejarl said:
After the dust settles on these various schemes, can we acquire these businesses on the cheap? Buy them out, perhaps through a proxy, for a fraction of the normal cost, then provide financial support and connections to help them ramp up past what they're currently doing?" He hesitated. "Basically, I don't want to hurt people more than necessary, and I don't want innocents getting caught in the crossfire."
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eaglejarl said:
Hazō wavered for a moment but then shook his head, his expression firming and turning grim. "We'll do what's necessary but no more
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eaglejarl said:
"There is one last point," Hazō said, his smile still in place but his voice cooling. "We wish to soften the blow to the civilians as much as possible."
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eaglejarl said:
The ninja of the Clan will be able to provide for themselves but a clan's civilian population has far fewer resources to absorb such a reversal of fortune. We wish to ensure that they are cared for."
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eaglejarl said:
Excellent," Hazō said. "If any of them get sick, direct them to the clinic on the Gōketsu estate. You should, of course, feel free to send your own people there. We don't charge and we have expert medic-nin on staff. Patients are triaged, with most minor ailments being handled by herbwives and physikers, but the medics will see to any major issues."
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eaglejarl said:
"Of course, people need more than simply food and water," Hazō said. "They also need work, a sense of purpose. Should any civilian businesses be harmed by the actions of this evil kami, the Gōketsu would be interested in helping. Perhaps you could act as our agents in this? Acquire the businesses and ensure their security and prosperity. The Gōketsu would be happy to provide capital for such a venture and split the profits with the Chivalrous Organization as an agent fee."
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RandomOTP said:
As I said previously, there was lively discussion about how to avoid turning this into a complete bloodbath on the same page as your post, not even two posts above your original post. I can understand not being up to date on the discord discussions --after all, I, myself, only joined mere days ago. I could even understand it if the aforementioned discussion had been 2+ pages prior, but it was literally on the same page, literally inches away from your own post.
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I did read the two posts above my first. I assume you're talking about your own posts below that post of mine, before my longer post. As someone who has spent some time in this thread arguing for peace, I'm hesitant to assume much from a lone voice. What defines the course of the story is what's written in the chapters. The impression I got from the chapters was not so measured.

---

@Oneiros I don't want to silently ignore this since there's a good chance it's directed implicitly at me, but I'll be winding back interactions on this topic except where necessary to clarify my previous comments. Apologies.
 
I mean, @Veedrac is correct. We're burning the commons over an issue that we're inconsistently choosing to treat with more importance than our past behaviour and ethics suggest we should. This isn't even about the civilian collateral damage, our plan is fundamentally, inherently, a defection against the agreements that make civilization possible.

Imagine if we acted like this every time someone gravely offended us or our morals. Like the Daisho Clan Head, who dehumanizes people based on genetics and is complicit in funding dubiously-ethical cage matches, whom we paid in clan secrets over a pleasant conversation? Or the Hyuuga, guilty of the same and worse, about whom we made that entire speech about not taking the Path of Mari? Or the Akatsuki, whom we reached out to despite the fact that they murdered tons of people, some of our loved ones included, and possibly thought it a good idea to submit to a fate equal to or worse than death literally everyone? Or Leaf entire, which systemically discriminates against clanless ninja and civilians?

Now imagine if everyone acted like this every time someone gravely offended them. Zero-tolerance policy from everyone towards everyone, Hagoromo not just refusing to officiate our marriages but, in turn, aiming to destroy us for the crime of not condemning homosexuality. The Hyuuga waging war on everyone for the crime of not being a Hyuuga. A Hobbesian society, a return to the Warring Clans era.

Which is not to say I'm opposed to what we're doing regarding the Hagoromo. Getting away with brazenly destroying a major clan in a disproportionate retribution is an excellent way to improve our standing in Leaf, showing that we're not to be pushed around (the way the Hagoromo were doing to begin with — I don't buy that Lord Hagoromo really cares about same-sex marriage so much as to go out of his way to piss off a voting clan over it, that was a status game move only enabled by our political weakness), not to mention the direct benefits of subjugating the Hagoromo. But we are being more ruthless than is strictly necessary.
 
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Here's the thing. The Hagoromo made the direct decision to unambiguously try to attack us. They also have ideological differences that are irreconcilable. There can be no peace between us because there is no point at which we can majorly agree on that will resolve the elephant in the room of them making a really dumb and immoral move that cannot end well for them.
 
Unaligned Player said:
Here's the thing. The Hagoromo made the direct decision to unambiguously try to attack us. They also have ideological differences that are irreconcilable. There can be no peace between us because there is no point at which we can majorly agree that will resolve the elephant in the room of them making a really dumb and immoral move that cannot end well for them.
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Yes, but we could've waged the war using society's tools, namely political and economic pressure, negotiations, alliances-against-them, social manipulations. Instead, we're choosing to use sabotage, violence, unilateral deal-breaking, and collaboration with literal organized crime.

We've initiated a negative-sum game because we think we can win it harder than the default zero-sum one.
 
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Diplomacy doesn't work here unless you have the overwhelming advantage.
 
Noumero said:
Yes, but we could've waged the war using society's tools, namely political and economic pressure, negotiations, alliances-against-them, social manipulations. Instead, we're choosing to use sabotage, violence, unilateral deal-breaking, and collaboration with literal organized crime.

We've initiated a negative-sum game because we think we can win it harder than the default zero-sum one.
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I mostly agree. If the Hags wouldn't have directly punched us in the face I wouldn't be pushing to defect too hard in our response. But because they did defect I want to send a message to everyone about what happens when you step into the ring with us.
 
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Unaligned Player said:
Diplomacy doesn't work here unless you have the overwhelming advantage.
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Do you imagine that I think we could have resolved the disagreement by having a pleasant teatime with Lord Hagoromo during which he, aghast, realizes the wrongness of his homophobic ways and publicly apologizes for his actions? Because I don't. I do think we could have pressured him to withdraw the demand for apology by convincing several other Clan Heads to support our position on the issue and put pressure on the Hagoromo (of the "I will offer you unfavourable trade terms, aim to outmaneuver you on the market, vote against your proposals on the Council" kind, not the "I will violently destroy your income sources" kind).
Oneiros said:
I mostly agree. If the Hags wouldn't have directly punched us in the face I wouldn't be pushing to defect to hard in our response. But because they did defect I want to send a message to everyone about what happens when you step into the ring with us.
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That's valid.
 
Noumero said:
Do you imagine that I think we could have resolved the disagreement by having a pleasant teatime with Lord Hagoromo during which he, aghast, realizes the wrongness of his homophobic ways and publicly apologizes for his actions? Because I don't.
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No i didn't. I expected the rest of your suggestions. I'm just also aware that the Hagoromo numbered their days in some form the second they pulled this. They wouldn't listen to reason. They would act like animals in panicking death throes trying to destroy all that that isn't them because people aren't rational actors. Especially zealots dumb enough to threaten a clan of people notorious for their insane leader of people who punch far above their weight class.
 
Noumero said:
I do think we could have pressured him to withdraw the demand for apology by convincing several other Clan Heads to support our position on the issue and put pressure on the Hagoromo (of the "I will offer you unfavourable trade terms, aim to outmaneuver you on the market, vote against your proposals on the Council" kind, not the "I will violently destroy your income sources" kind).
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I'm okay with this.

So long as we go about this cleverly and in a similar vein of any ideas to talk to the Hagoromo "reformists" (whatever this actually means in practice as I have seen people refer to the term): namely after we have the metaphorical loaded gun pointed at their heads from several different locations.

Hey, it might even work! And if it doesn't, well, plans proceed according to schedule.
 
Unaligned Player said:
I'm just also aware that the Hagoromo numbered their days in some form the second they pulled this. They wouldn't listen to reason. They would act like animals in panicking death throes trying to destroy all that that isn't them because people aren't rational actors.
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Uh, they explicitly aren't doing that? If anyone is doing that, it's us. They just refused to officiate our marriages until we publicly submit to them.

I really don't think they care about Keiko's sexual orientation much. They saw an opportunity for a power play, and took it. They would have accepted a political defeat, and in all likelihood stopped caring about the issue until they saw another opportunity to politically leverage it.
 
Noumero said:
Yes, but we could've waged the war using society's tools, namely political and economic pressure, negotiations, alliances-against-them, social manipulations. Instead, we're choosing to use sabotage, violence, unilateral deal-breaking, and collaboration with literal organized crime.

We've initiated a negative-sum game because we think we can win it harder than the default zero-sum one.
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I disagree that these aren't society's tools too. This is a ninja society, sabotage and violence are normal tools of politics. The Hyuga were doing the exact same thing with debt they owned prior to the election as we are planning to do right now. That's why we are making the payments in the first place, because it was to offset the Hyuga's economic pressure.
 
@Velorien just re-read everything about Ryugamine. The Angel Without Mercy is an incredible character and I hope we get to meet him


Velorien said:
"Overkill" is a pauper's word. It is used by those who fear to apply overwhelming force too often lest they run out. When one has mastered efficient resource management, every kill is made with the certainty of overkill.

—Mori Ryūgamine, the Angel Without Mercy
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[x] Action Plan: Marriage Push
Check up whether can do paperwork marriage using Isan conditions. Is that legitimate enough?
Check whether can pressure Hago to marriage Nob and Yuno saying important since Leaf Isan relations.

MMKII said:
Surely there is some way to arrange this? Even if its informally treated as a "spar" or "competition" with corresponding stakes. Perhaps as a "bet" legally speaking?
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Bet spars are probably allowed. Don't really need to put it in the plan.
 
I am firmly recommending against anything which in any way involves even tangentially involving Ami in any state secret. I guarantee that she is under 24/7 watch, probably by Hyuuga and/or Minami, if not Mist as well, so even if the secrecy seals we still can't make more of work it will be noted if she disappears into an opaque void and if she emerges with a new understanding of state secrets a simple process of elimination will confirm that she got them from the prime suspects.

Seriously, she herself mentioned how Asuma's contest undercut her influence over the KEI. How do you think he managed that?

Absolute dictators aren't exactly known for humoring arguments along the lines of, "well, if you look at it philosophically, I technically only committed treason by proxy..." when deciding whether or not to execute a repeat offender.


Speaking of the Hyuuga, something needs to be done simultaneously to keep them distracted during the Gouketsu-Hag brawl, because I again guarantee that they are primed to jump on it. At the very least, we need to make Hinata think that we've deduced her involvement and decided to act directly against the Hyuuga instead of her pawns, prompting her to move her pieces out of position before the fireworks.


-and all this talk about setting an example? If any of this gets even remotely tied back to the Gouketsu we are missing-nin again at best. Again, absolute dictator with literal mind-readers on-call. In fact, it might be wise to invest in teams of civilian scribes to copy all of the untranslated Jiraiya notes and squirrel them away somewhere in case we need something to buy our way into another village with.



Noumero said:
Uh, they explicitly aren't doing that? If anyone is doing that, it's us. They just refused to officiate our marriages until we publicly submit to them.

I really don't think they care about Keiko's sexual orientation much. They saw an opportunity for a power play, and took it. They would have accepted a political defeat, and in all likelihood stopped caring about the issue until they saw another opportunity to politically leverage it.
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The clan head seemed to mind quite a bit during the meeting, and if Hinata isn't taking advantage of that to make it seem as if it's in his best interests to contest the Gouketsu I'll eat my shoes.

Also note that Asuma wasn't exactly sympathetic either.
 
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Lailoken said:
I am firmly recommending against anything which in any way involves even tangentially involving Ami in any state secret. I guarantee that she is under 24/7 watch, probably by Hyuuga and/or Minami, if not Mist as well, so even if the secrecy seals we still can't make more of work it will be noted if she disappears into an opaque void and if she emerges with a new understanding of state secrets a simple process of elimination will confirm that she got them from the prime suspects.

Seriously, she herself mentioned how Asuma's contest undercut her influence over the KEI. How do you think he managed that?

Absolute dictators aren't exactly known for humoring arguments along the lines of, "well, if you look at it philosophically, I technically only committed treason by proxy..." when deciding whether or not to execute a repeat offender.
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Seconding this. It really feels like another opportunity to get locked in a killbox. And this time we don't have enough political capital left to get back out.

On the plus(?) side, the Hagoromo will be pretty happy. The second we get killboxed is the second they can start using that to disparage our allies and lock in their power over Leaf.
 
You know, if you feel strongly about it you could make/vote for an alternate plan. Like:
[X] Interlude: Hazou's Birthday
[X] Continue previous plan
 
faflec said:
You know, if you feel strongly about it you could make/vote for an alternate plan. Like:
[X] Interlude: Hazou's Birthday
[X] Continue previous plan
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My voting for something, much less making a plan, is the surest way to ensure catastrophy. The last time I voted in a quest a supervolcano erupted and a world war ensued to determine which 3/4ths of the species wouldn't starve to death.

A filler chapter wouldn't be a bad idea, though. It has been a hell of a week.
 
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