I'm hesitant to do anything Church of Youth related. Guy got away with it because he was a jonin, but Lee gets weird looks, is shunned, and is political poison. Even Mari and Keiko warned us against adopting Lee, so I worry that trying to push for this will just make the Goketsu viewed as the antithesis of Leaf-culture, and thus a Social Other.

And then Hiashi built them a church, sent Neji to preach at it, and put them on the academy curriculum beside the Will of Fire.


As for Toadism, we're not even sure if that's a thing, IIRC. And I worry that committing blatant heresy like that would only prove Hagoromo's points while also undermining Jiraiya's memory. Besides, having a Summon (who are all blatantly nonhuman and universally some degree of xenophobic --according to Jiraiya) preach a nonhuman religion to nonhumans doesn't seem like something that would succeed. Especially if their cultural xenophobia has seeped into their religion --and religions often reflect the culture they exist in, or the religion changes to suit the culture it wants to inhabit.

Toadism definitely seems to exist. Not sure where you're getting the idea that it doesn't.

Also, if otherworldly beings came down to a medieval society and started preaching that you too could be reincarnated into their plane of existence, the people's first thought wouldn't be "wow, xenophobic much?", it would just be "wow!". At least for the most part.
 
And then Hiashi built them a church, sent Neji to preach at it, and put them on the academy curriculum beside the Will of Fire.

It just seems a little blatant. Besides, it we invoke Hiashi's name against Hinata's will, we're going to trash whatever opportunities we might've otherwise had for an alliance. One of our ideas was to have her officiate the wedding, right? That definitely won't happen if we go around talking trash about her dead father --which would certainly open the door for reprisal, and I'm not sure we want to know all the blackmail that the other clans might've had on Jiraiya.

Toadism definitely seems to exist. Not sure where you're getting the idea that it doesn't.

Also, if otherworldly beings came down to a medieval society and started preaching that you too could be reincarnated into their plane of existence, the people's first thought wouldn't be "wow, xenophobic much?", it would just be "wow!". At least for the most part.

But Summons aren't unknowable or strange. Sure, they're relatively uncommon, but they're pretty standard in the Elemental Nations. I mean, I'm sure that civilians don't know the specifics, but also think that they're smart enough to know that a summon is just "an ally that ninja can call upon" rather than "an extra-dimensional being bringing me sacred knowledge."

Besides, if their religion reflects their xenophobia (which it likely does), and if Kagome is at least partially right in that the Summons are imprisoned on the 7th path (and he's right with a terrifying amount of frequency), then I'd assume that their religions would involve some degree of revenge against/damnation for humanity, their jailers and wardens.
 
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It just seems a little blatant. Besides, it we invoke Hiashi's name against Hinata's will, we're going to trash whatever opportunities we might've otherwise had for an alliance. One of our ideas was to have her officiate the wedding, right? That definitely won't happen if we go around talking trash about her dead father --which would certainly open the door for reprisal, and I'm not sure we want to know all the blackmail that the other clans might've had on Jiraiya.

We're not talking trash about Hiashi. Quite the opposite. We're emphasising that a legitimate and conservative hokage recognised the religious legitimacy of the CoY. Therefore CoY is unquestionably legitimate, even among conservatives.

In fact, we should be talking Hiashi up to maximise the effect.


But Summons aren't unknowable or strange.

To ordinary people they are. Most people never meet one. Even most jonin. Remember, even human preachers have convinced huge numbers of people that they were divine in nature, and they didn't have the advantage of being literally otherworldly.

Besides, if their religion reflects their xenophobia (which it likely does), and Kagome is at least partially right in that the Summons are imprisoned on the 7th path (and he's right with a terrifying amount of frequency), then I'd assume that their religions would involve some degree of revenge against/damnation for humanity, their jailers and wardens.

From what we've seen, it's buddhism wearing a toad texture pack. Also: the toad priest wants to convert people. Trust him to be good at his job.
 
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Note that my map has 31 known clans and doesn't seem to be close to comprehensive yet, so there's good odds a fair few of those clans either don't have scrolls (like perhaps the Leopards after they split from Cat) or their scrolls are chillin in a volcano or something.
 
I'm too tired to repeat myself in full, not that it would make a difference, but as a reminder, Goeketsu, the Merchant Council, Keiko, Snowflake, the vast majority of clanless ninja, Ami, the ISC, Neji, Hanabi, possibly the yakuza, and quite possibly both the final Lady Senju and even Naruto have ties to this. When one clan pisses off half of the entire metropolitan area it might be wise to get everybody together to coordinate escalation in an organized fashion over a quiet game night at a private pub acquired for precisely such purposes.
 
Oh, also Mist. They're bound to prefer a new intermediate force between major powers be linked to Leaf through somebody they have agreements with and influence upon instead of the notorious arch-conservatives. Plus, we still haven't even met the new Kurosawa envoy- or, have we?
 
We're not talking trash about Hiashi. Quite the opposite. We're emphasising that a legitimate and conservative hokage recognised the religious legitimacy of the CoY. Therefore CoY is unquestionably legitimate, even among conservatives.

We are, in fact, talking trash about Hiashi. The paper-thin excuse of "we're talking about Hiashi-the-Hokage, not Hiashi-the-man" isn't one that can stand up to scrutiny. It's weaker than Hazou's "I was genjutsu-ed" excuse. And given that the Goketsu are a staunchly "liberal" clan, I think the fact that we're claiming a connection to one of the most traditional/bigoted Hokages is going to be enough of a red flag for people to realize that we're lying.

Again, it opens reprisals to talk about "Jiraiya-as-Hokage" in return. And Jiraiya was a world-famous smut author who led a nontraditional marriage, wherein both parties agreed not to be exclusive, sexually, to each other. While we might not give a damn, and the other "liberal" clans might not give a damn, Hinata could use that open secret to flay the Goketsu alive, politically speaking. It's bad enough the the Hagoromo, the leaders of Leaf's religious subculture, are on our case, but if we get the Hyuuga (an old, noble clan, as traditional as they come with all the power that comes with being a multigenerational major political force) on our case, I think we can safely write the Goketsu off as "politically irrelevant."

Besides, taking a dead man's reputation and dragging it through the mud like that doesn't rest well with me. Further, Hazou verbally reprimanded Noburi for mockingly saying that "Hinata should be glad her bastard of a father is dead" mere days after his death, and authorizing this seems like a major step back for his character.

To ordinary people they are. Most people never meet one. Even most jonin. Remember, even human preachers have convinced huge numbers of people that they were divine in nature, and they didn't have the advantage of being literally otherworldly.

I'd argue that magic is more widespread here, and that even if the civilians don't understand the minutiae, they'd still recognize "there's a mystical reason for this, and I've heard about legendary Summoners before [such as the Sannin]." So that loses much of the mystique and mystery that faith healers and cult leaders have in our mundane world.

When magical death beasts wander the world, and people who walking on water is a daily sight (in Leaf), the threshold for "divine" becomes all that much higher.

From what we've seen, it's buddhism wearing a toad texture pack. Also: the toad priest wants to convert people. Trust him to be good at his job.

I reread the update that was essentially a religious pamphlet, and I'll grant that missionaries are probably skilled at their jobs. But I'm not comfortable intentionally duping people into a religion that the player character doesn't even believe in. It feels too... slimy.

Note that my map has 31 known clans and doesn't seem to be close to comprehensive yet, so there's good odds a fair few of those clans either don't have scrolls (like perhaps the Leopards after they split from Cat) or their scrolls are chillin in a volcano or something.

Not to mention the Clans that might have a summon scroll, but refuse summoners out of a lack of need. A summoner is like gravy, a nice perk to have, but ultimately a non-necessary one.
 
I'm too tired to repeat myself in full, not that it would make a difference, but as a reminder, Goeketsu, the Merchant Council, Keiko, Snowflake, the vast majority of clanless ninja, Ami, the ISC, Neji, Hanabi, possibly the yakuza, and quite possibly both the final Lady Senju and even Naruto have ties to this. When one clan pisses off half of the entire metropolitan area it might be wise to get everybody together to coordinate escalation in an organized fashion over a quiet game night at a private pub acquired for precisely such purposes.

Not so! Plan adjusted accordingly, edits made in yellow:

[x] Action Plan: A Shadowed Retribution, Heralding Radiant Reform and Fresh Pursuits
Words: 373
  • Mari and Gaku
    • What did you find?
      • Debts? Rumors? What's the clan like as a whole?
    • How is Leaf reacting to a Clan with a religious monopoly unilaterally banning an entire noble clan from a cornerstone cultural/religious ceremony?
      • How are the clanless ninja, the yakuza, Ami, ISC, and the other clans (Hyuuga, Yakuza, Senju, Uchiha, Uzumaki, etc) reacting?
  • Dismiss Gaku, Summon Goketsu ninja
    • Check with Keiko beforehand, to ensure this doesn't go against her own plans
      • Ask Mari to begin a whisper campaign, encouraging bad rumors and tainting good ones
        • The goal is to get everyone to wonder "Am I next?"
        • Give permission to involve Gaku, if she thinks he can help
      • Tally up every Hagoromo debt we now own, plus whatever interest percentage is above the standard for Leaf-norms. Keep in reserve.
      • Kagome/Akane
        • What do Jiraiya's notes have about the Hagoromo? What can we act on, what should we keep in reserve?
      • Task Haru with messing with the Hagoromo supply shipments, ensuring they quietly end up in the hands of the Hagoromo's competitors
        • Provide possible help via Noburi or Keiko as teammates
        • Ensure they have all supplies and funds needed to carry out the mission as subtly as possible.
        • Permit Yakuza involvement, if necessary.
  • Afterwards, ask Mari to remain
    • Tone: compassionate, gentle
    • What's your Uplift?
      • Hazou has civilian/clanless
      • Kieko has her pursuit of equal rights for "nontraditional" relationships
      • Kagome is taking an interest in education, in his own way
        • Conditional: if this seems to make Mari unsure about her place in our lives, comfort and reassure her accordingly.
      • What's your Personal Uplift?
        • Conditional: If Mari is agreeable to the topic, but also unsure of her personal Uplift goals, gently suggest gender equality or a reformation of how Leaf handles sexual assault crimes as possible Uplift pursuits
      • Regardless of her answer, gently remind her that she has the full support and aid of Team Uplift to call upon.
Offscreen
  • With Mari's help, pen letters to the political parties that are leaning favorably towards us (plus Ami, Naruto, Tsunade, and the KEI Group) to sway them fully to our side.
 
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Note that my map has 31 known clans and doesn't seem to be close to comprehensive yet, so there's good odds a fair few of those clans either don't have scrolls (like perhaps the Leopards after they split from Cat) or their scrolls are chillin in a volcano or something.
Please note: It's probably fruitless to attempt to derive in-character information from the cheesebrained QM when he is speaking off the cuff and trying to recall some relatively obscure piece of information like how many entries there are in the "Summon Clans" QM doc.
 
We should see if there's some kind of prospecting jutsu we can use to find the teeth caps, maybe tie it into recruiting that technique hacker.

What has Orochimaru been up to? I kinda want to pull him into a scheme to engineer some kind of plant for textile making and have it be a joint venture for us. He gets political clout and an interesting problem to work on, we get a genius technique hacker/biosealer.

Also, what's going on with our fish?

Edit: one fun route to destroying the hagoromo would be to get Hinata to publicly denounce them via some very juicy bribes. "Nice catspaw. We're going to force you to abandon it in a way you can't even complain about. We'll turn you into a voice of progressivism and *you'll like it*."
 
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We should see if there's some kind of prospecting jutsu we can use to find the teeth caps, maybe tie it into recruiting that technique hacker.

What has Orochimaru been up to? I kinda want to pull him into a scheme to engineer some kind of plant for textile making and have it be a joint venture for us. He gets political clout and an interesting problem to work on, we get a genius technique hacker/biosealer.

Also, what's going on with our fish?

Edit: one fun route to destroying the hagoromo would be to get Hinata to publicly denounce them via some very juicy bribes. "Nice catspaw. We're going to force you to abandon it in a way you can't even complain about. We'll turn you into a voice of progressivism and *you'll like it*."

Great idea; Noburi should have a thorough pharmacy of addictive substances we can hook her on. If there isn't a good fit we can always ask his teacher or uncle.
 
We are, in fact, talking trash about Hiashi.

We are, in fact, not.

I genuinely believe that if Hiashi thought that youth was not compatible with the Will of Fire in accordance with his ultra-conservative values then he would have been unwilling to taint Leaf's culture in exchange for the scroll.


I'd argue that magic is more widespread here, and that even if the civilians don't understand the minutiae, they'd still recognize "there's a mystical reason for this, and I've heard about legendary Summoners before [such as the Sannin]." So that loses much of the mystique and mystery that faith healers and cult leaders have in our mundane world.

When magical death beasts wander the world, and people who walking on water is a daily sight (in Leaf), the threshold for "divine" becomes all that much higher.

I think we have been reading very different stories.


I reread the update that was essentially a religious pamphlet, and I'll grant that missionaries are probably skilled at their jobs. But I'm not comfortable intentionally duping people into a religion that the player character doesn't even believe in. It feels too... slimy.

For all we know, toadism is the one true religion. It has at least as much evidence for it as will of fire or pantorkratorism. Besides, people here are going to believe in religions that we don't whatever happens. I'd rather they have plenty of options so that none of those options can be too oppressive.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Proportionate Response


Coordinate with Keiko, Mari, the Nara, etc relevant parties:
  • Give the Hagoromo opportunities to back out. Otherwise, put increasing pressure until they back off.
    • Start with circumvention, then economic and political attacks if that doesn't work.
      • If we can, we will just work around the Hagoromo.
    • Seek political legitimacy; bribe a Hagoromo priest; get Tsunade to officiate; have the hokage officiate it.
      • Whatever works. We may have to go to Church of Youth or the Toads to do it.
    • Keep in mind that the Hagoromo aren't only snubbing Goketsu ninja, but civilian Goketsu, who are integrated into the rest of the community.
      • Boycotts and collective actions are possible.

Hmm. My action plan lacks specific.
 
We are, in fact, not.

I genuinely believe that if Hiashi thought that youth was not compatible with the Will of Fire in accordance with his ultra-conservative values then he would have been unwilling to taint Leaf's culture in exchange for the scroll.
If you believe that a politician won't compromise his values for more power, then I applaud your optimism.
 
Hinata gives you advance warning that the Hagoromo have stated they will not be conducting any weddings for the Gōketsu Clan until you offer a formal apology for making them bless Keiko's marriage "in violation of their faith".

Has anyone mentioned that we should... you know, ask them directly what the issue is and what will resolve it? Our source for this is a letter sent by Hinata to Yuno as part of a scheme to get her married to Neji, it might not be the most reliable source of information.

"I call upon the Sage of Six Paths," Shikamaru called out while juggling the gems between Kei and himself, "to bestow the blessings of Six upon my beloved bride, that the bonds between us be as strong as the bonds between worlds, that our sharing of thoughts be as clear as ice, and that our self-interest be enlightened by the Will of Fire."

"I call upon the Sage of Six Paths," Kei responded, "to bestow the blessings of Seven upon my beloved groom, that our bonds be as eternal as the journey of the soul within the cycle of reincarnation, that we may walk together as shadows, unbroken in light and darkness both, and that our cognitive biases be burned away by the Will of Fire."

"Thus mote it be," pronounced the priest.

Text of the 'blessing' for reference.
 
[X] Action plan: The iron star that will burn the world
  • Introduce Canun to Ebisu
    • Find out what is neccessary to get Canun lessons
  • "Burning-the-Hagoromo-to-the-ground"
    • Beforehand, ask Yuno and Haru their thoughts on Keiko's relationship. assign them there task if they're positively inclined.
    • Explain to Yuno the details of the Hagoromo-Gouketsu feud (they hate us over Keiko's relationship).
    • They've put their petty beliefs over the good of Leaf; for that, they must be broken into irrelevancy until they change their ways.
    • Mari: Look for avenues of blackmail, and immediately act on any opportunities with Hazou.
      • Review Jiraiya's notes.
      • Find out any relationships with the Yakuza.
        • Once a target is identified bribe a worker at a tavern to drug their drink
    • Noburi, Akane and, Yuno: Break the Hagoromo's monopoly on religious legitimacy by building up alternatives (Church of Youth, Toadism) and destabilize the Hagoromo's.
      • Ask Noburi to begin summoning the Toadism priest to give public sermons (preferably in front of a statue of Jiraiya, to remind people that listening to toads is not against the Will of Fire).
      • Encourage people to begin using the Church of Youth for religious ceremonies. Hire people to talk about how "the Spirit of Youth is Hiashi Hyuuga's legacy and a totally valid religion" and engrain it into the public consciousness.
    • Haru: Look up Hagoromo-affiliated businesses or infrastructure. Try to find places where "accidents" could happen
      • Find out what security is around and what is the best way to maximize damage
  • Discuss ways to get the marriage recognized​
    • Find a priest who can be bribed or blackmailed into performing it
    • Do it under Toadism, The Church of Youth, Isan culture, or Mist culture.
    • Bring up the precedent set by Mari and Jiraiya - legal marriage when necessary for Leaf
 
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  • They have decided to put their petty vendetta over the good of Leaf. For that they must be stopped
    • But if they change their ways, they can be spared
  • Keiko and Gaku start looking into their financials. Hazou wants the power to destroy every stream of revenue they have. If necessary we should be able to leave them destitute
    • If they have any debt we want to own it
    • Also, prepare to stop paying on the deal we made at the election
Note that this part is already done.
 
[X] Action Plan: Proportionate Response

[X] Action plan: The iron star that will burn the world
About to go into work, so my replies may be somewhat limited. But I'll vote for your plan if you're willing to change the "church of youth/toadism" to something like "explore other religions in Leaf. Intent: undermine Hagoromo monopoly"

I'm very uncomfortable with the notion of turning Team Uplift into missionaries or religious figures.
 
I'm very uncomfortable with the notion of turning Team Uplift into missionaries or religious figures.
Noburi is all ready spreading the word on toadism. Akane fully believes in The Church of Youth. Heck even Keiko is a cult leader in Isan. So sorry don't really see the point in going against what we are all ready doing
 
[X] Action plan: The iron star that will burn the world

[X] Action Plan: Nailing a Thesis to a Church Door
  • Mission Statement: Break Lord Hagoromo's monopoly of religious legitimacy by shifting the overton window such that multiple religious organisations are considered highly legitimate in the eyes of Leaf. Run all this past Kei to ensure we're not stepping on her toes wrt her own scheme, and to maximise the effect.
    • The Will of Fire
      • Hazou and Mari find an important Hagoromo-affiliated priest, and convince them to denounce Lord Hagoromo as acting against the Will of Fire.
      • Co-ordinate with the Nara/Ami to capitalise on this and turn it into a full-blown religious schism.
    • The Church of Youth
      • Via proxies, arrange for some couples in other clans to have their weddings at the Church of Youth, to normalise the idea.
      • Coordinate with Ino to improve the CoY's public image in a way difficult to trace back to us and with plausible deniability.
    • Toadism
      • Have the toad priest give public sermons.
      • In front of a statue of Jiraiya, to remind people that listening to toads is honouring one of their greatest heroes.
      • "It wasn't our idea. It was in the terms of a trade Noburi made."
        • Can we actually do that? See what we could get in exchange for a series of sermons.

I am unlikely to update this plan, but feel free to copy it.
 
The only one i raise an eyebrow at being a religious figure is HAzou and that's only because the QM's can't comprehend his true religion.
 
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