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That section had a rather unsubtle point about how Snowflake, trying to avoid being the Frozen Skein affected Keiko, is instead acting like Ami. Could be deliberate on her part, but who knows?
My reading was that she was just unconsciously adopting the mannerisms of one of her loved ones/the only other proactive Mori she knows/the person she idolizes and wants to imitate, no spooky metaphysical interactions required. Although it's possible that Ami deliberately engineered her mannerisms to be the opposite of those the Frozen Skein would naturally cultivate, meaning her mannerisms are also the perfect template for any Mori who tries to diminish their bloodline's effect on their personality. But I don't think there's much evidence for that, as of yet.
 
My reading was that she was just unconsciously adopting the mannerisms of one of her loved ones/the only other proactive Mori she knows/the person she idolizes and wants to imitate, no spooky metaphysical interactions required. Although it's possible that Ami deliberately engineered her mannerisms to be the opposite of those the Frozen Skein would naturally cultivate, meaning her mannerisms are also the perfect template for any Mori who tries to diminish their bloodline's effect on their personality. But I don't think there's much evidence for that, as of yet.
That's not an unfair reading either. I recall that typically the Mori marry outsiders to provide the decision making they have trouble with, which suggests to me Keiko is more representative of the average Mori than Ami is.
 
Dogs cart problem > we have entire clan in Leaf obsessed with dogs..
We should meet with Inuzuka Kiba and ask if they dont have any ideas or solutions. Buy them, trade for seals etc
 
It was very much a joke. Hence the invisitext at the bottom.

I wouldn't actually do that to the QMs. Probably. :whistle:

Ah, sorry! I have a hard time seeing invisible things during the day. But glad we have clarification that EJ would go for immolation over grue, and Vel would go sealing failure water world (or singularity) as a means to avoid that. Truly, this insight into their preferences will be valuable for flufflec in the next Chosen for the Grave.
 
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How worried should Keiko be about Snowflake?

The perennial fear with clones is that the clone will rebel against the creator in favour of its own interests, which may be radically different from the original's or the exact same but with the clone on top of it all.

With Shadow Clones, there's the fundamental constraint that the clones are temporary and need Prime to re-cast them, and also have mental blocks to not have any problem popping.[1] This means that your Shadow Clone is very unlikely to seek your own demise, but does not mean they can be trusted wholesale.

In a case like Snowflake, we can assume that Snowflake has the same general value function as Keiko, and so will not compromise Keiko's ambitions to advance Uplift. However, it is plausible that Snowflake will seek to optimize the frequency of her existence, and act to manipulate Keiko to want Snowflake around more often.

[1] Naruto Pepperoni shows that a sufficiently anomalous shadow clone may develop self-preservation contradictory to the desires of Prime.

Huh. So Shadow Clones are people. Up until now, I've thought of them more as philosophical zombies. Well, this'll put Hazou's future interactions with himself in a different light.

I also think it's a little cute how Hazou can identify Ami's manner of speech in another person after only two brief conversations.
I see them as forking and merging a consciousness. In most cases it results in a consciousness nigh-identical to the original[2], which I have no compunctions labeling 'the same person' as the original.

The difference with Keiko and Snowflake is that their consciousnesses are significantly different. Beyond the simple Frozen Skein meaning they think different while they exist, this update shows that they related to their memories differently and so form different reservoirs of experiences. With such meaningful differences, it is more fitting to consider Keiko and Snowflake as separate identities.

[2] Sufficient time forked would create meaningful deltas in experience and even personality, thus crossing the fuzzy line to a place where I would say that they are 'different people', but a single day is highly unlikely to have a large enough delta. Moreover, even if they do diverge that much, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with merging two different identities together, provided both parties are agreeable to the notion.
 
SC rebelling against their creators introduces terrifying possibilities

It'd be a very short rebellion imo. Either the creator cancels the technique, or the SC cancels the creator and promptly poofs since the creator can't sustain the SC anymore. I don't remember if an unconscious caster can still sustain a SC...

My interpretation of the interlude is that Ami's personality is a result of an attempting to attain maximum initiative. The times where Ami goes cold and robotic would be the normal frozen skein mode, where she needs to focus on big calculations. Thinking about the last thing Snowflake said, it's interesting that Snowflake doesn't seem to feel the same embarrassment that Keiko does. Maybe Snowflake predicted she'd be preemptively canceled before finishing her sentence? But would she really risk her chance to eat cake like that?

Anyways:

A shadow clone's personality diverging is probably only going to apply to frozen skein individuals. Hazou's Iron Nerve is fairly unlikely to affect his ability to recall memories after all. (His clone might be a little clumsy though, depending on his much he uses Iron Nerve motions in daily life.)

If a Hazou clone counsel wanted to maximize planning efficacy, I suppose each clone would focus on adopting a different perspective to ensure more angles are covered. Aka one clone would be in charge of OPSEC concerns, another would be focused on interpersonal Goketsu relations, while another considers ramifications on Leaf and how Asuma would react. Maybe assign one clone to watch for treason, just to be safe?
 
"We have an accord of sorts," Keiko said as Snowflake fell silent. "Snowflake requires additional personal experiences for the purposes of self-differentiation and development of identity. I have been providing these. She, in turn, has been cooperating with my daily activities rather than attempting to rebel against her creator."
Sage damn, Kei and Snowflake are smart. This is some high tier game theory and philosophy of personhood.

I wish them both the best.
 
Ah, sorry! I have a hard time seeing invisible things during the day. But glad we have clarification that EJ would go for immolation over grue, and Vel would go sealing failure water world (or singularity) as a means to avoid that. Truly, this insight into their preferences will be valuable for flufflec in the next Chosen for the Grave.
Intelligent Bush: All according to keikaku.
 
How worried should Keiko be about Snowflake?

Negligibly, from a survival standpoint. Keiko has access to a substantial fraction of Snowflake's brainstate, and Snowflake is reliant on Keiko's cooperation to exist. Keiko struggles with suicidal thoughts, but I don't think Snowflake does. And if she did, that would probably be part of the brainstate that Keiko could understand.
 
All of our Shadow Clones must only ever refer to one another as "Hazō Prime."

Edit: Plural "Hazōs Prime."
 
Does Hazou even know how to walk and breathe without the Iron Nerve anymore btw?

Or can we look forward to seeing his SCs just instantly collapse after being summoned?

I do remember him having trained using SC in-story but I don't remember if any of that was onscreen.
 
[X] Action Plan: A brief dive into non-linear time

  • [X] Action Plan: A brief dive into non-linear time
    • Flashback to Hazou's Birthday
    • During timeskip commission a Sharkskin/Megalodon leather jacket for Noburi's birthday
    • Answering the Dog Problem:
      • Our solution is three-tiered. Run by Canoe (let her know when you'll be summoning her for this; no need to be rude) to be sure there's no cultural/pride things we'll run afoul of in our suggestions, if Hazou's training is not sufficient for him to know)
      • First, most fast to deploy: Saddlebags sized for dogs with pockets for pups. We also have a jutsu that allows for fine manipulation that does not require hand seals.
        • Pros: Quick to get for them, effective at distributing puppies without harming their necks, or straining their caretakers' mouths, may be stored in storage seals
        • Cons: Doesn't actually help them go any faster for the number of puppies they'd carry
      • Second, basic sleds, pulled by dogs in quick-release halters/harnesses
        1. Pros: No need to move pups between bags when their caretakers need a break, moderately faster movement, may be stored in storage seals
        2. Cons: Lower comfort due to no shock absorption, difficulty with non-prairie terrain
      • Third, more complex, potentially sealtech constructions
        1. Pros: Faster, higher comfort levels, less exhaustion on caretakers' part
        2. Cons: Dependent on more complex constructions; difficult to replace, sealtech means more dependence on Hazou and dogs that can activate seals, as well as additional failures.
    • Begin work on Casino seal variant from before the chunnin exam tournament
      • Use 2 Fate points to tag aspects (Jiraiya's notes & Promising Sealing Student)
      • Use SSA when infusing a prototype and spend 48hr on theoretical research before trying again
      • Use SC to increase safety. Work with Kagome to design protocols
    • Have Noburi send a message to the otters
      • Check with Mari 1st
      • We're searching for their summoning scroll and wondered if they had any information on it
 
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[X] Action Plan: A brief dive into non-linear time

  • Flash back to Hazou's Birthday
  • Answering the Dog Problem:
    • Our solution is three-tiered. Run by Canoe (let her know when you'll be summoning her for this; no need to be rude) to be sure there's no cultural/pride things we'll run afoul of in our suggestions, if Hazou's training is not sufficient for him to know)
    • First, most fast to deploy: Saddlebags sized for dogs with pockets for pups. We also have a jutsu that allows for fine manipulation that does not require hand seals.
      • Pros: Quick to get for them, effective at distributing puppies without harming their necks, or straining their caretakers' mouths, may be stored in storage seals
      • Cons: Doesn't actually help them go any faster for the number of puppies they'd carry
    • Second, basic sleds, pulled by dogs in quick-release halters
      1. Pros: No need to move pups between bags when their caretakers need a break, moderately faster movement, may be stored in storage seals
      2. Cons: Lower comfort due to no shock absorption, difficulty with non-prairie terrain
    • Third, more complex, potentially sealtech constructions
      1. Pros: Faster, higher comfort levels, less exhaustion on caretakers' part
      2. Cons: Dependent on more complex constructions; difficult to replace, sealtech means more dependence on Hazou and dogs that can activate seals, as well as additional failures.
  • Commission a Sharkskin or Megladon leather jacket for Noburi's birthday
  • Begin work on Casino seal variants we where working on before the chunnin exam tournament
Nitpicks:

1) Probably want to specify the jacket commission before the dog stuff.
2) Probably want to add "Use 2 FP on research tags" (Jiraiya's notes + our own aspect). In addition, specifying we take our time and use SSA is probably a good idea.


[X] Action Plan: A brief dive into non-linear time
 
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Can't record and playback at the same time. He's usually always recording, not usually playing it back except when necessary.

I always thought he considered himself an automaton unless he conciously overrides his IN. IIRC he confided to Noburi (or Keiko) about that once and how it made him feel less human.
 
I always thought he considered himself an automaton unless he conciously overrides his IN. IIRC he confided to Noburi (or Keiko) about that once and how it made him feel less human.
Well:
It does allow for a certain degree of isolation, hence why Hazō is able to look up at Mari-sensei while his arm continues drawing seals, despite the fact that when he originally recorded the action he had his eyes pointed at the page the whole time.

Note that it can only isolate relatively large groups of muscles at a time -- a limb, the face, etc -- and there is a limited degree of workable variance. Exceeding the variance will cause the replay to fail.

Growing up, Hana warned you that breaking a replay can have major health implications, including seizures, coma, and possibly even death. She wasn't too specific about it and Hazō never felt the desire to push the boundaries.

In theory, yes, but not of the same body part. Moreover, trying to combine different motions can end up simply not working. If you are (e.g.) replaying a block and a kick at the same time then there's no guarantee that the body mechanics will work together. You could end up simply falling on your butt because the two actions move your center of balance in incompatible ways that weren't an issue when the two original motions were performed separately.


No.

That is to say, whether or not he is doing one or the other is probably up to him, but the fact that he's been characterized at points as "Ok now replay the drunken shambling that resembles dancing that I was doing two seconds ago" would imply to me that he is capable of doing either without collapsing into a helpless pile of aaaaaa
 
  • Begin work on Casino seal variants we where working on before the chunnin exam tournament

I tried looking for what the Casino seal variants were, but I can't seem to find them... Could someone please remind me as to what they were? I'm afraid that I've forgotten.

[X] Action Plan: A brief dive into non-linear time
 
[X] Action Plan: A brief dive into non-linear time
Second, basic sleds, pulled by dogs in quick-release halters
So a quick Google search tells me a halter is meant to be wrapped around the dog's head and/or muzzle? Ignoring the possible cultural insult of restricting the dog's mouth, I feel that the dogs would more easily move the sleds if it were attached to them via the waist/chest? At least, that's what RL dog sleds seem to be doing, according to a Google image search.

OTOH, I could see the reasoning in that the waist/chest bindings might be more time-consuming to apply, though that could be remedied by them being set up to easily fit in (e.g., by having stands for the harnesses).
 
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