Now that I'm back, I'd like to reiterate that I have made massive changes to the plan; this is why I'm going to ping my voters; the Ino section for one is totally different.

@Evenstar, @Esryok, @Cariyaga, @Asquil, @faflec, @BG-Scout, @Raichu1972, @fiirofa, @Torpling, @The king Chad, @Inferno Vulpix, @Sentient Tree, @Rafin
Looks good to me. Why are we giving Ino the flowers while they're still in the seal though? What's wrong with just taking them out and giving them to her? (Sorry if this has been explained already, I haven't been able to keep up with the discussion recently).

Edit:
I'm gonna agree with Jello Raptor that we should change it, unless there's some compelling reason to give it to her as a seal. If the idea is so that we're giving her a storage seal, remember that she's a clan heir/head so she has plenty of access to seals.
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry the social stuff is so difficult and frustrating, but at least that makes it properly simulationist.

I mean, I also couldn't personally do sealing research or do water-walking or any of that. It's especially frustrating because we can't abstract it away like we do in those other areas.
 
Asking Mari to help design a bouquet to give to Ino, again, seems like practically daring her to screw with Hazou again.
I hope she does because it means she's snapping out of it.

Or because she's relapsing into depression and using this as an excuse because aieeeeeeeeeeeee
Adhoc vote count started by faflec on May 24, 2019 at 2:13 PM, finished with 434 posts and 29 votes.
 
@Noumero I understand perfectly if you disagree, but is the discussion on the Ami meeting all that necessary? If we're doing it in another plan anyway, wouldn't it be better for us to just have a brief note to schedule a meeting with her and when that comes around, put what you have here into that plan? It saves on word count here and now, and we can put other stuff in it...like giving our allies our condolences, which we really should be on top of, like, yesterday.
 
I also feel like the majority of Hazō social problems can be placed on the playerbase. We are generally playing to not lose in social situations. Which makes Hazō a pushover and makes it easy for other people to walk all over him. This is exceptionally frustrating for me cause I know how smart talented and over all competent y'all are. The hivemind are some of the brightest people I have ever met. And gosh darn it I wished y'all would realize how great you are
 
It goes against my personal policy to point out things like this, but I would note she said pretty much this exact thing. In the afternoon discussion: "I've been distressed for a long time over this, and don't want to keep selling weapons". In the evening, she elaborated with, "I feel like my hands are covered in blood and I'm responsible for countless deaths".

Characterization discussion,mine!

She said "I wanted you to find a way to stop selling weapon", and then just after went "I'm going to stop selling weapon, i'm ready and prepared in advance to fight a legal battle and you have no legal claim upon the Pangolin Scroll because Uplift never existed" without asking us to help her.

Let's be clear, It's completely in-character for her, because she finds no utility in herself, so of course her mind goes there at the first sign of problems, i mean it's what she would do! She would take the scroll, and cast herself out of the clan because she's useless and so on...
It's also completely insulting to the people she decided to make family, because she knows that it's not true, she knows it, but it was easier for her to follow her fears and armor up than trust us.
Frankly put, this right here it's bigger than any social blunder that Hazou made, even bigger than the killbox, as far as "Why" the blunder happened.
She quite willingly decided to not trust everyone in the family, (Aside from her girlfriend, i would like to note, just to rub it in the difference), not because she had any reason to, but simply because it's was easier for her.
This is the kind of thing that hurt people, badly, the fact that she is gambling with the well-being of everyone is just the icing of the cake.
When you need to play the card "We weren't legally a family, so i can do what i want", you did something wrong.

I'm sorry the social stuff is so difficult and frustrating, but at least that makes it properly simulationist.


It always surprises me when people say this. I think he actually handles social stuff better than average for a 14-15 year old. I also think that he has visibly improved. I suspect there's an element of negativity bias -- negative outcomes stand out in the memory more than positive ones.

Meh, frankly put Hazou is good.
I'm serious, he's pretty good...he's also in a world full of traumatized child-soldier, IS a child soldier, and he's probably mentally healthier than 75% of the Adult ninja he talks with, this including the fact he has hivemind in his head.
 
Really, we made this mistake with Shikaku already.

It was not a mistake with Shikaku. He absolutely did try to put Hazou off balance in that conversation, intentionally, in ways that had nothing to do with communicating efficiently.

On the other hand, I'm fairly confident Shikamaru was honest in his CCnJ lecture. He just doesn't have a lot of points in Empathy or Rapport.

Akane is mostly just sane

We are talking about miss "Directly challenge Tsunade in spite of being threatened with death, tell no one even though their help could solve the problem without you needing to risk your life", right?

Though I do wonder sometimes if my analysis of Akane's character flaws is overblown speculation, and you guys model her as a perfectly normal and stable individual.
 
Last edited:
Hazou x Literally Every Blonde Character Save Deidara (He Gets Shipped with Kagome)

Search your feelings, you know the memeship to be true.
 
@huhYeahGoodPoint

Also I think the Mari section could use a line like:
  • You have been making progress towards being okay with who you are, please don't do things that make you hate yourself or throw that progress away.
We need to reinforce that Mari's well being includes her self image. In her mental state it's really easy to forget that harm to your self-image and self-trust is harm to yourself.

If there's room, we can even get a read on Mari's internal issues and help her frame her problems in a healthier way.
  • You can see how your actions impact other people, in ways that most can't.
  • With that skill, it's easy to start seeing other people as pieces in a game. As if they're not people, just pawns being used by players like you.
  • You have already done the hard part of noticing that everyone, even those without skill in the game, are people as complex and deep as you are.
  • That said, the ability to influence others is part of who you are. Rejecting that has been tearing you apart.
  • You need to find a way to use your social finesse in a way that honors the agency and humanity of other people.
  • Yes, sometimes this means you will end up hurting others, or pushing them into places they wouldn't end up otherwise.
  • What matters is that you are always trying to achieve a net good and minimize harm to anyone, even your enemies.
  • I know you don't trust your personal definition of right and wrong, which is why I've been lending you mine. (And taking the responsibility for that sense of right and wrong)
  • But I want you to at least start listening to your own definition of wrong as well.
  • Trust that your own distaste or dislike of something also deserves a place on the scale, and weighs just as much against the good of an action as much as my own objections.
The above might be a stab in the dark, but even if I'm completely off base we will learn a lot about what Mari mindset is.

If I'm not completely off base, if this resonates even a bit with her we start her back on a path to a healthier self-image, and reduce the chances of her growing to hate us or breaking completely out of the blue.
 
Last edited:
Characterization discussion,mine!

She said "I wanted you to find a way to stop selling weapon", and then just after went "I'm going to stop selling weapon, i'm ready and prepared in advance to fight a legal battle and you have no legal claim upon the Pangolin Scroll because Uplift never existed" without asking us to help her.

Let's be clear, It's completely in-character for her, because she finds no utility in herself, so of course her mind goes there at the first sign of problems, i mean it's what she would do! She would take the scroll, and cast herself out of the clan because she's useless and so on...
It's also completely insulting to the people she decided to make family, because she knows that it's not true, she knows it, but it was easier for her to follow her fears and armor up than trust us.
Frankly put, this right here it's bigger than any social blunder that Hazou made, even bigger than the killbox, as far as "Why" the blunder happened.
She quite willingly decided to not trust everyone in the family, (Aside from her girlfriend, i would like to note, just to rub it in the difference), not because she had any reason to, but simply because it's was easier for her.
This is the kind of thing that hurt people, badly, the fact that she is gambling with the well-being of everyone is just the icing of the cake.
When you need to play the card "We weren't legally a family, so i can do what i want", you did something wrong.

Yeah, and she just kinda threw our "peace through MAD" plan in our face and stormed off! Which to me is the most frustrating thing, especially because her objection wasn't even that it wouldn't work, her argument was deontological instead of consequentialist, which is fair, it's a more natural way to think for humans. Yet she didn't even try and consider the consequentialist viewpoint, give Hazou credit for trying to help, and worse yet she didn't try to help us with any alternative plans.



[x] Action Plan: Impure World Domination
 
Last edited:
YONDAIME RAIKAGE: NANI.reaction
MadScientist.interject

More seriously, I think...

Ah, who am I kidding.
a) This does include Kiri and that would piss of best Bro

b) no.
a)

NOBURI: You are telling me that you want to get in a relationship with the chick that pisses me off and subtly bullied me?

HAZOU: Pretty much my dude.

NOBURI: This is gonna be great, lemme grab some honeyed apples.

b)

When we get to that point Ami can just dye her hair.
 
Yeah, and she just kinda threw our "peace through MAD" plan in our face and stormed off! Which to me is the most frustrating thing, especially because her objection wasn't even that it wouldn't work, her argument was deontological instead of consequentialist, which is fair, it's a more natural way to think for humans. Yet she didn't even try and consider the consequentialist viewpoint, give Hazou credit for trying to help, and worse yet she didn't try to help us with any alternative plans.

She was kinda feeling betrayed by our lack of understanding of the situation, that from a point of view it's fair, we knew it was a touchy subject and we should have more tactful.
From the other it shows how she expects us to read her mind and understand her reason without telling us, because she suppress her needs and never says anything because she's unworthy of attention(in her mind), until she actually does violently and badly(like the Rock Lee thing, in which her answer was "no, because no") because she snaps.
And we need to tell her this, because she can't read Hazou mind either.
 
Back
Top