Well, I think not just stating our concerns plainly and instead doing this song and dance A) won't fool him, and B) will annoy him.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Well, I think not just stating our concerns plainly and instead doing this song and dance A) won't fool him, and B) will annoy him.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Oneiros and MMKII have expressed that they prefer solutions where Naruto isn't adopted into the clan formally because then Hazou retains the agency of Clan Head. I don't think that would unduly taint Hazou's internal reasoning, though.
- Location
- Yes.
Then we ask him, flat out, what will happen to his current seat if and when we do this. He answers, then we propose solutions.
aieirhwirurieijrr uggh I hope not.
Evenstar
Triple Jump Unlocked
- Location
- Canada
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Yeah, uh, since when has "lying to Naruto" ever turned out well for anybody in canon?
We're here to create a world where ninja don't have to be tools in the service of their duty, where we're free to actually have emotions and compassion for others.
Approaching our long-lost brother first as a resource to be exploited goes against the whole point of Uplift. The Uzumaki seat ought not to be crucial to us, it goes directly against Jaraiya's will, and it's a stupid political fiction that will be blantantly obvious to everyone else as a power grab.
I would much rather we adopt Naruto and thereby make Clan Goketsu the successor clan to the Uzumaki.
We're here to create a world where ninja don't have to be tools in the service of their duty, where we're free to actually have emotions and compassion for others.
Approaching our long-lost brother first as a resource to be exploited goes against the whole point of Uplift. The Uzumaki seat ought not to be crucial to us, it goes directly against Jaraiya's will, and it's a stupid political fiction that will be blantantly obvious to everyone else as a power grab.
I would much rather we adopt Naruto and thereby make Clan Goketsu the successor clan to the Uzumaki.
- Location
- Europe
[x] Lore Update
Folding Naruto's Uzumaki seat into the Gouketsu Clan might have been part of an implicit political settlement that allowed the clan's creation or continued existence. Making a new seat on the council for Jiriaya by Hokage fiat is vote-stacking that threatens the continued relevance of the clan council through the precedent it sets but if Naruto joins as the heir of Gouketsu and loses his Uzumaki vote then they're almost dealing with the Uzumakis adopting some members if they squint. Given Jiriaya's relationship with Naruto it must have seemed very likely to all involved that Naruto would be adopted into the Gouketsu or die before rescue with little consideration of puppet-clan shenanigans.
Also, the same reasoning that applies to the Uzumaki Clan applies to the Senju. If it's true that clanless ninja are being denied medical training then Tsunade might be ammenable to following the Gouketsu adoption precedent with her students and some clanless med-nin she likes like Kabuto.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Enemy (1/17)
Hyūga
Leans Against (4/17)
Kurusu, Motoyoshi, Amori - Formed a power block on the clan council (ch 148)
Minami - Likely still pissed about Nikko's death.
Neutral (3/17)
Inuzuka - Not known ally, is fiercely loyal to leaf. Intuition says will be pushing for status quo. Ch 148 "That's now how we used to do it!"
Aburame
Sarutobi
Ally (6/17)
Nara
Yamanaka
Akimichi
Senju
Uzumaki
Gōketsu
Unknown (3/17)
Uchiha - Was pissed in "A family dies" at sudden meeting Jiraiya called. in ch 212 mentioned as being lead by a civilian regent and mostly abstaining.
Kyosho
Hagoromo
My current read on the clan balance, any comments/corrections?
Hyūga
Leans Against (4/17)
Kurusu, Motoyoshi, Amori - Formed a power block on the clan council (ch 148)
Minami - Likely still pissed about Nikko's death.
Neutral (3/17)
Inuzuka - Not known ally, is fiercely loyal to leaf. Intuition says will be pushing for status quo. Ch 148 "That's now how we used to do it!"
Aburame
Sarutobi
Ally (6/17)
Nara
Yamanaka
Akimichi
Senju
Uzumaki
Gōketsu
Unknown (3/17)
Uchiha - Was pissed in "A family dies" at sudden meeting Jiraiya called. in ch 212 mentioned as being lead by a civilian regent and mostly abstaining.
Kyosho
Hagoromo
My current read on the clan balance, any comments/corrections?
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
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- She/They
Clarification: If he's Hokage I can stomach him being clan head as well if we want to adopt him a few months afterwards or whatever to keep up appearances.
What I absolutely would hate is if we get him stuck in the CH position and end up getting jerked around by Hiashi-kage politically or something, I would be able to stomach it if it wasnt that bad.
Having Chouza or someone be Hokage and Naruto be clan head would be okay but not ideal.
Ideally, Hazou will hold a position of authority where he doesn't have {Jonin Commander , Clan Head, Hokage, The Conflicting Preferences of 5 Different Clan Members} ready and willing to shoot him down on any given decision.
I highly doubt that. We had to fight hard and sell Kei to the Nara to support the creation of the Gouketsu. If folding the Uzumaki seat was a part of what was bargained, I think that would have come up.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Changed my Naruto clan section to the softer lead-in I constructed above:
At least, that's my read on it.
Yeah, fair enough. I feel like Naruto has a good shot of taking the hat when everyone's patched up and we're ready to hold the election, and I feel like Naruto as Clan Head won't be as difficult to work with as Jiraiya as Clan Head because Jiraiya was constantly in crisis mode and stuck us in various obligations to help keep things together, and Naruto would mostly be just overseeing the clan.
At least, that's my read on it.
@OliWhail @eaglejarl @Velorien
Some players are expressing discontent by what they perceived as lack of agency or incoming lack of agency(Like said, adoption of Naruto and him becoming clanhead) to the point that they are willing to make really bad decisions(FMPOV) to get out of it.
I just thought you may want to know so that it may be addressed.
Some players are expressing discontent by what they perceived as lack of agency or incoming lack of agency(Like said, adoption of Naruto and him becoming clanhead) to the point that they are willing to make really bad decisions(FMPOV) to get out of it.
I just thought you may want to know so that it may be addressed.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
tbh, this isn't something you should post in-thread. If you want to just notify the QMs of the state of things, a PM is a better channel than broadcasting the fact that you're saying this to the whole thread.
- Location
- Europe
Why do you think giving someone we don't know at all power over our clan is a good idea?
Evenstar
Triple Jump Unlocked
- Location
- Canada
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- She/Her
In fact, I'm going to note: Telling Naruto to keep the Uzumaki clan seat is a strong signal of political weakness. It tells everyone in Leaf that we feel like we might need an additional council vote.
And in this kind of situation, apparent weakness very quickly translates into actual weakness.
"Status Quo" means "not Goketsu": as such, Inuzuka is likely against us.
Therefore, we need as many of Uchiha, Kyosho, Hagoromo, Aburame, and Sarutobi as possible.
The Uchiha are traditional enemies of the Hyuga, due to their cheating-eye rivalry, and are likely to lean towards us. We should try to get Hazou married into them; that will eliminate the potential long-term threat of a True Sharingan in a non-Uchiha Leaf Clan.
Hiashi invited Kyosho to our games night: that says the Hyuuga are actively courting their vote. We need to figure out what they want, and fast.
The Aburame are likely to be annoyed with us over Keiko's rough handling of Shino in the tournament. They're also likely to have problems.
The Sarutobi may lean towards us out of the Jaraiya master-student relationship... If we can convince them that Jaraiya did not in fact murder the Fourth Hokage. Fortunately, this will now be a lot easier given that he went and died fighting the Akatsuki in front of witnesses from basically every major ninja village.
And in this kind of situation, apparent weakness very quickly translates into actual weakness.
"Status Quo" means "not Goketsu": as such, Inuzuka is likely against us.
Therefore, we need as many of Uchiha, Kyosho, Hagoromo, Aburame, and Sarutobi as possible.
The Uchiha are traditional enemies of the Hyuga, due to their cheating-eye rivalry, and are likely to lean towards us. We should try to get Hazou married into them; that will eliminate the potential long-term threat of a True Sharingan in a non-Uchiha Leaf Clan.
Hiashi invited Kyosho to our games night: that says the Hyuuga are actively courting their vote. We need to figure out what they want, and fast.
The Aburame are likely to be annoyed with us over Keiko's rough handling of Shino in the tournament. They're also likely to have problems.
The Sarutobi may lean towards us out of the Jaraiya master-student relationship... If we can convince them that Jaraiya did not in fact murder the Fourth Hokage. Fortunately, this will now be a lot easier given that he went and died fighting the Akatsuki in front of witnesses from basically every major ninja village.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Reduced word count.
While doing so I made a few observations:
- The Chouza part hinges two sentences on us even going to Chouza (as opposed to someone else) in the first place. If we really want those, we should make it clear that we go to him, thus cutting down on the 'maybe' stuff. If we just look for the first reliable source of information we should postpone the Chouza feel-good stuff IMO.
- The last section, in which we talk to Naruto about adoption and election shenanigans, needs an overhaul IMO.
- First of all Naruto has no idea regarding the notice behind all that or our issues with Hiashi. "Tell Naruto about our issues with Hiashi and what Jiraiya/Tsunade have said about him" should be enough there though.
- Second I think that at least the last proposal where the Uzumaki clan name is pretty much unilaterally handed over to someone completely unrelated is, frankly, preposterous. It is one thing to adopt people, but no one even remotely traditionalist will be okay with simply shuffling clan status, heritage and everything else around like it is nothing. I wouldn't stand for it if I suddenly lived there. It is a very short step from there to the point in real life history where Noble titles are so worthless they can literally be bought and sold for a small sum. Something most countries that still have anything resembling Noble titles don't allow to this day afaik. Deleting it would save 23 words.
Jiriaya might have still made the same calculation later on for Gouketsu's legitimacy if he survives or for it's safety if he died. Having a one-man clan voting equally to those representing dozens of members could be very dangerous if there's any case that it's a facade like him practically being a Gouketsu.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
- That's not quite what I said. I said it would be less difficult than working with Jiraiya, agency-wise.
- We have heard stuff about Naruto from Jiraiya and while there are error bars on that the information is pretty decent as a rough guideline.
- Jiraiya has explicitly asked for Naruto to be Goketsu Clan Head. We've got an uphill climb to justify doing anything but that.
- Location
- Europe
We never interacted with Naruto, yes I get that we aren't showing up and just swear fealty to him, but just trusting him (as a Clan head) after all that happened because Jiraiya did, without trying to get to know him? That's a wrong move, let's get to know him for a while and then decide if giving him any further power (beyond Hokage) is a good idea.
I disagree. Do you think the ISC look weak for staying as three clans with three seats instead of merging? Everyone knows they're such strong allies that they might as well be one clan. Surely, if keeping hold of multiple seats where you can is a sign of weakness then this applies to them as well?
Jiraiya made no comment to this effect. Additionally, he said it was an option for Tsunade (the only Senju -- QM confirmed) to assume her seat on the council. So there's precedent for one-person clans being legitimate.
Furthermore... who cares if this was in some hypothetical calculation? We have QM confirmation that no clan wants to take away someone's council seat or other clan rights because of the precedent it would set. And Naruto is one of their only two S-rankers and incredibly popular to boot. Moving strongly against him in a way that can be spun as unfair casts Hiashi in a terrible light.
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
There is this one very minor character from canon that was named Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki.
People may also know him under his other name: The Sage of the Six Paths.
E: Looks like I got me'd.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
But again, it isn't a matter of whether or not we decide to give Naruto power, it's a matter of how hard we claw power away from him. The Clan Head position of the Goketsu is rightfully Naruto's by Jiraiya's will, and we'd have to contest that to stay Clan Head ourselves.
Really, the only way for Hazou to stay Clan Head without all but ending Naruto's support for us is if we convince him to let us stay Clan Head despite Jiraiya's wishes. In all honesty, the appeal to the Uzumaki seat and the Hokage vote is the best we're going to get.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yo my plan only tries to get him to stay as the Uzumaki clan head
- Location
- Why would this be required?
[X] Action Plan: Growing Goketsu
Evenstar
Triple Jump Unlocked
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Jaraiya trusted him, and I trust Jaraiya. I'm not going to gainsay his one direct request to us. No, this doesn't mean "if Naruto is a massive blithering idiot, do nothing about it" - it means cooperate, but keep the insurance letter Jaraiya wrote us. He's deliberately given us the weapon we need to effectively dispute Naruto's claim to Clan Head if need be.
Not only that, but do you really think he wouldn't have noticed the potential power of the Uzumaki seat? If the "two seats" plan was actually better than adopting Naruto, would it not be better for Naruto as well?
Jaraiya is actually competent and looks out for those he cares about. He would not deliberately steer us into political danger by costing us a vital seat on the council, and I would bet you a dollar that there's something in Naruto's letter about the disposition of the Uzumaki seat.
And if you're saying he was emotionally compromised: Sure! He was probably emotionally compromised! But do you really think for even a second that he would deliberately put Naruto in danger by making him head of a clan he wasn't ready to lead?
Jaraiya knows Naruto, and he knows us. He's also a S-rank master diplomat. I think it would be a serious mistake to ignore his final request to us.
The question isn't about whether the Uzumaki are legitimate, it's about whether the Goketsu are legitimate. Additionally, I would like to note that this means that Jaraiya knew that we might need every council seat we could get, and still advised us to adopt Naruto. Do you really think that the Uzumaki seat just slipped his mind?