I mean, I'm not sure we're even disagreeing here. You're both right that Romans parallels are excruciatingly obvious.
I haven't referenced roman stuff?

That can describe how FDR acted in the lead up to the second world war. It doesn't imply that he was in office due to army backing.
Navy backing! Which would be very important if the US was a island chain, which would be the more comfortable comparison to a planetary power.

You have a point there, but it seems like the Romulans are more willing to directly credit the Praetor. Which like, even if you don't accept Riker's line, seems fairly established in Balance of Terror. Praetor as the State would also make sense if the Praetor is head of state, which seems likely sans an empress.
 
Doesn't he just need to decidedly NOT LOSE given who his opposite number is a reference too?

A draw with establishment power blocks crippled suits both expies well. Arguably better since dealing with the conquered territory would tie up the attention they need to clean up shop.

It could work, as long as each of them can point to sufficient personal victories to say, "We totally would have won if only I had been in charge of the whole thing rather than just my piece of it."

An excellent battle scene, by the way. Writing two extremely intelligent commanders going at it is probably the hardest type to write because it requires writing people smarter/more skilled than the author without being able to dumb down one side to make the other look smarter.

Reminded me a great deal of the final battle of The Last Angel, to be honest. One side's "merely" got a great commander but also has material superiority, the other side has a transcendental freak genius commander but a serious disadvantage in force.

Thanks!
 

Which, had it actually come up, FDR probably had. Certainly Leahy and Nimitz would have gone to the mats for him. And King, who acknowledged no human as his intellectual superior and perhaps three as his equal, was conspicuously silent on FDR for a man who was well-known for mouthing off about superiors and equals and subordinates alike.
 
No way, we're toats buddies with them. They would however break out the WMDs and war crimes if the Federation were too preoccupied to so much as glance in their direction.
I'm... pretty sure they're already going to do that anyway. Most of the war is happening in places the Federation doesn't know and has never visited, and we're not the boss of them, nor is there any interstellar accord on what constitutes a 'war crime' that would be enforceable by anyone even if they could agree to let us be responsible for enforcing it.

If we combined every starship in the federation that is capable of fighting. Could we take the Cardassians?
...Probably? We're a little hazy on how many ships they actually have, especially since we don't know to what extent their allies factor into the balance and what the Klingons and Romulans would do if they saw us locked in a desperate struggle with Cardassia.

Constellation-A/Constellation-P Now-2370 [310m 700k t]
C3 S4 H2 L3 P3 D4
Cost [70br, 50sr, 3 years], Crew [O-2, E-4, T-2]

Centaur-A 2308-Now [315m 800k t]
C3 S3 H2 L3 P3 D3
Cost[80br, 70sr, 2 years], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-2

Can someone explain why the Betazeds would be better off with Centaur-As over Constellation-As? The Consties are equal or better in every category and are cheaper.

Are they suffering from a crippling shortage of enlisted personnel that I don't know about?
Well, they don't have twice as many enlisted as techs and officers. They'd run out of redshirts to crew Constellations faster than they'd run out of goldshirts or blueshirts.

I figure that it's like, The American President being the Commander in Chief. That individual is the executive connection point with the military, and there probably is a certain degree of the Praetor had better not be totally objectionable to the Navy and the Navy not having officers objectionable to the Praetor. Praetors change with the backing of the Navy I bet, but it's not like the Navy is the special demesne of the Praetor.
While that is definitely NOT how it works in the US, it is almost certainly how things work in the Romulan Empire.

One thing to remember about Rome, after which Romulus is in some ways modeled (obviously), is that it very much was an oligarchical pseudo-democracy, where most of the protections extended to the general public were the product of a series of extremely abrupt general strikes. There were a LOT of offices in the Roman Republic with staggering potential for abuse of power. The main reason this power was not, on the whole, abused all the time every time forever was that the bulk of the governing senatorial class came from the same background, all knew each other, and were extremely disciplined and rigorous about not giving power to anyone they deemed likely to abuse it beyond the bounds of what was normative for Roman society.

Incidentally, you can look at this as a prisoner's dilemma scenario. Prior to about 100 BC the Romans were in a 'cooperate-cooperate' equilibrium where everyone played it more or less straight. After that time things fell apart because people started 'defecting' and doing things like recruiting armed mobs to intimidate their political opponents.



Well, at least some part of this ties back to fifteen in game years of history being behind most of the decisions. There are probably a number of areas that could be simplified, but some of it can't be avoided.
I agree. If your game hasn't achieved a fair degree of emergent complexity after sixty turns of regular gameplay plus dozens of turns of emergency events, with the active participation of up to 60-70 questgoers on certain votes... Something has gone much, much more wrong than what's wrong with a 'council' system that essentially reduces to representative democracy.

I am not sure if the fact that the quest has grown so complex that only a handful of people understand its core-mechanics is a good thing or something to be proud of. I am currently re-reading the quest and in my eyes it is quite depressing to see how its decision making and voting process grows ever more exclusive with every revision adding even more complexity to it, with nowadays it being pretty near impossible to actually make an indepedent decision in any part of the quest without spending several hours researching the material. A quest that relies so heavily on write-ins/plans like this has always a tendency to move towards a "council" like style (since the number of players that have the time to actually to do the work requried is relatively low) but at beginning you had at least some opportunities to parcipate which have nearly all disappeared which is quite sad im my opinion.
We actually get a fair amount of competition in my opinion, except in three areas.

One is ship deployment and construction, which as a rule Briefvoice always wins.

One is research, which Nix always wins.

One is ship design and optimization via spreadsheet, which SWB always wins, but doesn't come up very often.

In just about everything else, there is either competition, or extremely broad-based consensus about what our priorities are that requires no 'council.'

If I were thinking about how to essentially redo this quest at some future date (which I am), my priorities would be simplifying the mechanics of the latter two fields, and seriously considering figuring out a way to 'automate' routine ship redeployments.
 
We actually get a fair amount of competition in my opinion, except in three areas.

One is ship deployment and construction, which as a rule Briefvoice always wins.

Not exactly true for ship deployment. What I do is build a (relatively) easy-to-understand deployment list where it's easy for people to cut-and-past a ship from one location to another if they want to switch things up. I usually start posting my plan well in advance of the quarter when we take the actual vote, getting suggestions and amendments from the thread to make it more of a consensus.

And frequently I still don't win. Off the top of my head, the most recent distribution was a modified version of my initial input, and I was overruled on our initial commitment to Gabriel to go much heavier than I had been planning. I consider that to be a good thing, that I can lay down a fleet deployment vote with sufficient clarity that people feel comfortable modding it to get exactly what they want.

More often true on construction, but again usually because I've already taken thread input into account.
 
I don't find the mechanics to be a problem, but given the complexity, I find it much more effective to discuss changes than to make counter plans as we have high levels of consensus on many topics, and our more freeform discussions often settle issues before a vote, or at least present a few solid selections to pick from.

That said, thanks to all who do put in the hard work to track each topic.
 
I've completed transcribing all our (that is Federation/Affiliate) ship designs to the Intelligence post. There may well be little tidbits of information I've missed here and there but I've found the major pieces. Next up is tracking down minor power / enemy client ship designs.

Thanks! You sure do have a lot of "!!!!!!" for our not getting Cardassian fleet strength reports. Personally, I think you should count the report we got on the Ashalla Pact as a whole at the end of the Treaty of Celos.

It's really hard with intelligence reports, because we're always trying to balance them between things that strategically useful but boring, things that are interesting, and things that we hope might provoke an event chain. For instance, this coming Intelligence voteI might reasonably push for the boring vote of Cardassian fleet strength and a more interesting report on the Caldonian science cult movements. The former because it would tell us how worried to be (I guess), and the latter because it might help shift an Event chain in our favor.

Proposed 2316 Steering Committee:

[ ][CARD] Cardassian Fleet Strength Report
[ ][ROM] Romulan Ship Analysis Report - Bird-of-Prey-Replacement
[ ][REPORT] Progress of Klingon-Romulan War (I think we should take this one EVERY YEAR. We cannot afford to be caught with our pants down due to a sudden shift in this conflict.)
[ ][REPORT] Klingon Tar'Chak Battleship Report
[ ][REPORT] Fleet Strength Report for: <Lecarre>
[ ][REPORT] Sources and remedies for political unrest from Caldonian science cults
[ ][REPORT] Interstellar Commonwealth Diplomatic Posture Report
 
Thanks! You sure do have a lot of "!!!!!!" for our not getting Cardassian fleet strength reports. Personally, I think you should count the report we got on the Ashalla Pact as a whole at the end of the Treaty of Celos.

All that gave us was an approximate combat number, though. I don't really know how to translate this:

[Whole of Political Entity Combat: 500~550, Defence 500~550, Science, 350~400]

Into fleet strength given the massive unknowns involved. Part of why the fleet strength report is so valuable is that we can track ships if it's accurate enough. In a scenario like Ghosts and Whispers, we were able to estimate what percentage of the Cardassian fleet was deployed. We can't really do that without approximate counts.
 
Briefvoice, I'm not sure a report on Commonwealth diplomatic posture will be useful this year; we may not know enough about them to have a clear picture of what their posture is. So far we've never learned anything about relations between a known species and other unknown species from a posture report, and most of the Commonwealth's diplomacy is pretty clearly involving other aliens we don't know yet.
 
Briefvoice, I'm not sure a report on Commonwealth diplomatic posture will be useful this year; we may not know enough about them to have a clear picture of what their posture is. So far we've never learned anything about relations between a known species and other unknown species from a posture report, and most of the Commonwealth's diplomacy is pretty clearly involving other aliens we don't know yet.

Well, let's compare. We first encountered the Cardassians in 2304.Q4.

We asked for the Diplomatic Posture report on them immediately in 2305 Steering Committee, and this is the report we got in 2305 Well, They Try.

Opinion on Cardassian Diplomatic Posture

We are still endeavouring to increase our understanding of the Cardassian Union. We know that there is a large area of space between our Homeworlds without large empires, and it is our opinion that the coming period of expansion will inevitably place Federation and Cardassian borders next to each other. From what we have discerned, there is a push by field commanders to attempt to assert a recognition of Cardassian dominance of the area. The fact that they are running into our best Excelsior-class explorers are strongly inhibiting their attempts at this however.

We do not believe a war of any great intensity is imminent. However, we are likely to see a return to brush-war style limited hostilities, much like it was once before the Federation with skirmishing between starships. Any commander on the Cardassian frontier should expect that hostilities are a real possibility, and to not keep shields lowered around Cardassian vessels.

If we could get the equivalent of that on the Interstellar Commonwealth, I would be pretty happy! Remember, details on their diplomatic posture includes their diplomatic posture towards us.
 
Well according to beta-canon the Breen are a sizeable multi-species polity that is internally inclusive and externally isolationist. So they actually could be.
 
I can see isolationist Breen reacting this way to one of our explorers- lots of ships, freaking the hell out when our ship follows them home, et cetera.

The only problem is that I'm pretty sure that our captain would have mentioned the body-concealing armor.
 
See, you have us so well trained that all you had to do was write the words, and I immediately pictured a Leila Hann stick-figure picture of a Breen wearing an "Interstellar Commonwealth" t-shirt.

"Hey there, girlfriend! So, like, I got this urgent communique from Thot Torz about this super huge alien capship that just, like, randomly followed her fleet home..."

 
I suspect that episode went rather different in this timeline. Most likely in this timeline archer gave them the cure, and things went catastrophically wrong somehow. Presumably the situation was also at least bit different because as is I really could not see how helping would have a negative impact.

off the top of my head, one way it could back fire would be they give them the cure then they find out that there pets are about to become sapient, this sparks a civil war that leaves the planet bare of life. Possibly with a kicker that there was a hidden faculty that might have contained a non infected viable population.
 
@SynchronizedWritersBlock, additional ship info and corrections:

Frigates:
Spiny Mouse ?-Now [350k t]
C2 S? H1 L2 P? D?
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-1]
Lizard ?-Now []
C3 S? H2 L3 P? D?
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-2]
There's an additional Licori frigate class with stats C3 S? H1 L2 P? D? O-1 E-2 T-2
AHS Longarm (Manan) - Combat 3.00/3, Shield 17.94/20, Hull 10.00/10 - Crew 1-2-2/1-2-2 - Enemies killed: 0 - Status:
Fired: 7, Fired On: 4, Hits Received: 2, Damage Dealt: 8.08

AHS Censor (Bene) - Combat 0.00/3, Shield 0.00/20, Hull 0.00/10 - Crew 1-2-1/1-2-2 - Enemies killed: 0 - Status: Disabled
Fired: 8, Fired On: 7, Hits Received: 6, Damage Dealt: 6.69
AHS Spite - Combat 0.00/3, Shield 0.00/20, Hull 2.71/10 - Crew 0-2-2/1-2-2 - Enemies killed: 0 - Status:
Fired: 16, Fired On: 24, Hits Received: 13, Damage Dealt: 7.33

AHS Fist - Combat 3.00/3, Shield 13.58/20, Hull 10.00/10 - Crew 1-2-2/1-2-2 - Enemies killed: 0 - Status:
Fired: 17, Fired On: 18, Hits Received: 8, Damage Dealt: 14.68
This class is inferior to the C3 H2 L3 heavy frigate, yet has the same crew costs. We also know that Lizard classes are being produced, so that C3 H2 L3 frigate can be deduced to be the Lizard class. That means that this inferior C3 H1 L2 design is either an older ship class, or that it's a prior version of the Lizard. The latter could imply that the Lizard is actually something like the Lizard-A.

Unnamed Scout Frigate ?-? [690k t, 24.90% ev, 99.03% rel]
C3 S5 H2 L3 P1 D4
Cost [70br, 60sr, 2.25 Years], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-2]
So I'm not sure if this counts, but not long after the vote, @anon_user slightly revised her design here to trim the build time down to just 2 years, at the downside of extremely slight reliability and evasion hits, and refitability room is arguably a wash (more power available, less weight room for some subsystems).

Apiata
Capital Ships:
Queenship
?-Now [2.1m t]
C4 S3 H3 L8 P7 D7
Cost [220br, 170sr, 4 Years], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Light Queenship ?-Now [1.8m t]
C4 S4 H2 L7 P6 D7
Cost [180br, 135sr, 3 Years], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Frigates:
Forager ?-Now [600k t]
C2 S6 H1 L2 P2 D3
Cost [60br, 52sr, 2 Years], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Stinger ?-Now [584k t]
C4 S2 H1 L4 P2 D4
Cost [60br, 60sr, 2 Years], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Old Swarmer ?-Now [300k t]
C2 S1 H1 L2 P2 D3
Cost [32br, 32sr, 2 Years], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
We have crew costs for all these class except the Old Swarmer.
Apiata crew reqs, btw:
Queenship 1/8/3
Little Queenship 1/5/2
Stinger 0/2/1
Forager 0/2/2

I bet it's possible to deduce the crew costs of most of Caitian and other non-Starfleet designs if we track build/resource/income histories over time (something I intended to do, but other priorities).

Frigates:
Patroller 2289-Now [371k t]
C2 S1 H1 L2 P2 D2
Cost [40br, 40sr, 2 Years], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Centaur-A [Listed in Starfleet]
Patroller-A 2315-Now [371k t]
C2 S3 H1 L2 P2 D2
Cost [40br, 40sr+, 2 Years], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Patroller-A has an additional L, so it's stat line is C2 S3 H1 L3 P2 D2. You should start listing the refit costs of all our known refits. In the Patroller-A's case, it's it's 15br 15sr 0.25yr:
[ ][BETA] Provide 40rp and 10pp for Betazed to crash-develop a rapid upgrade package for the Patroller. [+2 S, +1L, 15br/15sr, can be developed in 3 months, 3 months to upgrade]

We also know the resource and crew costs for new Patroller-A builds. Refit ship classes have never changed crew costs yet (Connie-B doesn't count), so Patroller likely has the same crew cost.
Probably not ideal for Starfleet? 40br/45sr, 1/2/1 crew, 2yr build time, counts as a frigate.

Honiani
Capital Ships (Explorer):
Cathedral ?-Now []
C5 S4 H? L? P? D4
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Basilica ?-Now []
C6 S5 H? L? P? D5
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Basilica of Lakhept ?-Now [4m t]
C8 S5 H? L? P? D5
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Cruisers:
Chapel ?-Now []
C4 S3 H? L? P? D3
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Reliquary ?-Now []
C4 S3 H? L? P? D3
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Frigates:
Parish ?-Now []
C2 S2 H? L? P? D2
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Monastary ?-Now []
C3 S3 H? L? P? D3
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
We have some info on Honiani ship tonnages:
Explorers:
Basilica of Lakhept - "Flagship", lol-enormous 4mt explorer
Basilica - Modern Explorer, around the level of an Excelsior, 2.5mt
Cathedral - Old Explorer, somewhat weaker, but not hugely, 2mt

Cruisers:
Reliquary - 1.2mt, slower new-gen cruiser
Chapel - old sub 1mt cruiser

Escort:
Monastery - Modern escort, Centaur-A generation
Parish - Old tough little ship

Ked Paddah
Capital Ships:
Aggadah ?-Now []
C6 S? H6 L6 P? D?
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Cruisers:
Egillah ?-Now []
C5 S? H5 L5 P? D?
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Frigates:
Almud
?-Now []
C3 S? H2 L2 P? D?
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Orah ?-Now []
C3 S? H4 L2 P? D?
Cost [Unknown], Crew [O-?, E-?, T-?]
Egillah is a capital ship - just the older version:
[Ked Paddah attack force: 2 Modern Capital, 2 Old Capital, 6 Modern Frigates, 2 Old Frigates - roughly half of available forces]

You flipped the heavy frigate Orah's H and L stats - it should be C3 S? H2 L4 P? D?

We also know the crew costs of all these classes.
[Aggadah] KPS Cautious - Combat 6.00/6, Shield 29.61/60, Hull 60.00/60 - Crew 6-6-5/6-6-5 - Enemies killed: 1 - Status:
Fired: 48, Fired On: 28, Hits Received: 26, Damage Dealt: 184.53

[Egillah] KPS Protective - Combat 1.55/5, Shield 0.28/50, Hull 15.53/50 - Crew 4-3-3/5-5-5 - Enemies killed: 1 - Status:
Fired: 24, Fired On: 34, Hits Received: 33, Damage Dealt: 48.26

[Orah] KPS Alert - Combat 0.00/3, Shield 0.00/40, Hull 0.00/20 - Crew 1-0-1/1-2-2 - Enemies killed: 0 - Status: Disabled
Fired: 2, Fired On: 3, Hits Received: 3, Damage Dealt: 0.00

[Almud] KPS Vigilant - Combat 0.74/3, Shield 0.59/20, Hull 4.91/20 - Crew 1-1-1/1-2-2 - Enemies killed: 0 - Status:
Fired: 12, Fired On: 9, Hits Received: 4, Damage Dealt: 3.80

I'll see if I can scrounge up some more info (and corrections) later...
 
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