Honestly, I'd be willing to sacrifice a year's progress on four techs for the boost the the Betazoid fleet for the duration of this war, given just how bad the results of the Licori pulling a T'Mir on us would be.
It's a permanent upgrade. The result is actually a pretty decent ship for 400kt. Especially for a crash refit. It's not that unreasonable a cost to get a frontier member world something meaningfully better than freaking Soyuzes.
 
Hm.

@OneirosTheWriter

One politically palatable alternative to helping the Betazoids out this way MIGHT be for us to commit extra frigates to Task Force Four and the defense of Betazed specifically. Maybe we could have an option for that (say, involving us spending some pp and requiring us to spend five of our war mobilization points to drum up a force of hitherto unassigned frigates/cruisers to thicken our patrols).

Something like:

"Write-in: Select 5 war mobilization points worth of ships to reinforce patrols in and around Betazed."

It's a permanent upgrade. The result is actually a pretty decent ship for 400kt. Especially for a crash refit. It's not that unreasonable a cost to get a frontier member world something meaningfully better than freaking Soyuzes.
I quite agree.

I'm just trying to think outside the box here. The Betazoids are totally right to be very worried about the security of their planet. Some of us have actually been specifically exasperated with them because they weren't worrying enough. Even if we decide that we can't provide the massive engineering and design 'surge' (modeling the RP expense) required to do this redesign on a crash basis...

We should certainly be willing to do SOMETHING to fulfill the underlying need. Namely, securing Betazoid space.
 
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If we don't provide the support at least the Betazoids will be unhappy. Really unhappy. As in "the Federation drags us into an unnecessary war and Starfleet doesn't help" unhappy.
I am fine with that. Just want people to be aware of where we stand currently. We have two captains logs for this quarter and all of next quarter for additional RP but we are going to be tight and may have to deactivate a team or two depending on how much RP we gain (or we could have one of those crazy quarters and gain 50 RP rendering the issue moot)

[X] [WS] Plan Engineers
[X][BETA] Provide 40rp and 10pp for Betazed to crash-develop a rapid upgrade package for the Patroller. [+2 S, +1L, 15br/15sr, can be developed in 3 months, 3 months to upgrade]
 
I'm not sure the refit actually increases their security. We expect the war to last a year or less, of which one month has already passed. Ships they decide to refit immediately will spend 3 months in refit and 5 months or less active with the higher stats. They probably don't want to refit all of their ships at the same time, so probably they will have a constant number of refits going on throughout the year. So it's essentially 3 months with X ships less (probably X = 2), 3 months with X ships less, but also X ships at higher stats (when the first wave finishes) and 2 months with X fewer ships and 2X ships at higher stats (when the second wave finishes). That's not obviously a win.

As for long term, they only need Starfleet's help to rush the refit, they can still research it at a slower pace if we refuse.
 
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I'm not sure the refit actually increases their security. We expect the war to last a year or less, of which one month has already passed. Ships they decide to refit immediately will spend 3 months in refit and 5 months or less active with the higher stats. They probably don't want to refit all of their ships at the same time, so probably they will have a constant number of refits going on throughout the year. So it's essentially 3 months with X ships less (probably X = 2), 3 months with X ships less, but also X ships at higher stats (when the first wave finishes) and 2 months with X fewer ships and 2X ships at higher stats (when the second wave finishes). That's not obviously a win.

As for long term, they only need Starfleet's help to rush the refit, they can still research it at a slower pace if we refuse.
That doesn't address the political dimension of the request.
 
I wonder if we could ask for a Gaeni Tech-Frigate for Task Force 4. The high science and shields is basically exactly what the Betazoids want.
 
There are numerous reasons this might not happen, both political and practical.
Well, they know their current ships are not up to date, and will probably want to do something about that eventually. They might delay for a few years and they might decide to go for more general purpose refit (which would probably be the better long term choice anyway), or to retire their patrollers and replace them with an entirely different design, but they almost certainly aren't going to want to still rely on the current patrollers in 10 years.
 
I'm not sure the refit actually increases their security. We expect the war to last a year or less, of which one month has already passed. Ships they decide to refit immediately will spend 3 months in refit and 5 months or less active with the higher stats. They probably don't want to refit all of their ships at the same time, so probably they will have a constant number of refits going on throughout the year. So it's essentially 3 months with X ships less (probably X = 2), 3 months with X ships less, but also X ships at higher stats (when the first wave finishes) and 2 months with X fewer ships and 2X ships at higher stats (when the second wave finishes). That's not obviously a win.

As for long term, they only need Starfleet's help to rush the refit, they can still research it at a slower pace if we refuse.
The Betazoids may be pessimistic about the likely duration of the war. Indeed, that would help to explain why their war support is so low in the first place. If they don't share the general optimism about how easy this will be, or foresee having to spend many years carefully patrolling their own borders to catch any rogue mentats in shuttlecraft with a grudge and a trilithium bomb... That might be a factor in their analysis.

I wonder if we could ask for a Gaeni Tech-Frigate for Task Force 4. The high science and shields is basically exactly what the Betazoids want.
It would be a good gesture. But one frigate, however capable, would hardly be a replacement for the long-term benefit of major sensor and shield refits on half a dozen Betazoid ships. Furthermore, all existing tech-frigates are already serving in the war, either aggressively or in direct defense of Gaen. Taking Gaeni ships to secure Betazed would be a very good example of 'robbing Peter to pay Paul.'

I would rather pull together multiple ships from various member worlds not so directly involved in the war- e.g. the Earthlings, Tellarites and Andorians. Maybe the Caitians can spare a modern Swarmer or two. I'd hesitate to draw on ships from the Amarki (whose science ratings aren't very good), the Rigellians (who have already given much and who have similar direct self-defense needs as the Betazoids, if to a lesser degree). I'd prefer not to call on the Apiata and Indorians (who are very far away, and who are the most likely to be placed under urgent military threat by Cardassia).
 
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I'm not sure the refit actually increases their security. We expect the war to last a year or less, of which one month has already passed. Ships they decide to refit immediately will spend 3 months in refit and 5 months or less active with the higher stats. They probably don't want to refit all of their ships at the same time, so probably they will have a constant number of refits going on throughout the year. So it's essentially 3 months with X ships less (probably X = 2), 3 months with X ships less, but also X ships at higher stats (when the first wave finishes) and 2 months with X fewer ships and 2X ships at higher stats (when the second wave finishes). That's not obviously a win.

As for long term, they only need Starfleet's help to rush the refit, they can still research it at a slower pace if we refuse.

I think it is becoming quite clear that a year is a very optimistic timetable for this war and besides that I think the political situation makes it nearly imperative that we support them here otherwise I fear what will happen if they have to endure some losses.

[x][BETA] Provide 40rp and 10pp for Betazed to crash-develop a rapid upgrade package for the Patroller. [+2 S, +1L, 15br/15sr, can be developed in 3 months, 3 months to upgrade]
 
[X][BETA] Provide 40rp and 10pp for Betazed to crash-develop a rapid upgrade package for the Patroller. [+2 S, +1L, 15br/15sr, can be developed in 3 months, 3 months to upgrade]
I sort of want to see this go through largely because I personally like the idea of a microship frigate, so I'd like to see something like this around.
What would be the costs (in resources, crew, and build times) for new-build refit patrollers, incidentally, @OneirosTheWriter?
 
[X][BETA] Provide 40rp and 10pp for Betazed to crash-develop a rapid upgrade package for the Patroller. [+2 S, +1L, 15br/15sr, can be developed in 3 months, 3 months to upgrade]
 
[X][BETA] Provide 40rp and 10pp for Betazed to crash-develop a rapid upgrade package for the Patroller. [+2 S, +1L, 15br/15sr, can be developed in 3 months, 3 months to upgrade]
I sort of want to see this go through largely because I personally like the idea of a microship frigate, so I'd like to see something like this around.
What would be the costs (in resources, crew, and build times) for new-build refit patrollers, incidentally, @OneirosTheWriter?
Probably not ideal for Starfleet? 40br/45sr, 1/2/1 crew, 2yr build time, counts as a frigate.
 
[X][BETA] Provide 40rp and 10pp for Betazed to crash-develop a rapid upgrade package for the Patroller. [+2 S, +1L, 15br/15sr, can be developed in 3 months, 3 months to upgrade]
 
Did, did you just give them Primary Beams? You monster!

;)
Hah. ;)

I won't pretend I didn't think of Boskonian primaries while writing it, but... Honest answer, nothing so serious. The 'burning out' aspect is meant more in the sense of 'If you keep this up for twenty minutes you won't have a zapper cannon anymore,' not 'turn your gun into a one-shot bomb-pumped laser'

Basically, the best they can come up with given bastard psychic enemies who keep predicting and sidestepping their every move is to fire broad-front pulses that are, say, a few hundred meters wide. That's (at the range in question) big enough that the Betazoids can't just sidle out of the way in time, even if they know the shot is coming. But then they have the problem of getting something that diffuse to actually do any damage, even against a broad target like "the Harmony's shield bubble." So they have to ramp up the power output to the point where they cannot possibly keep this up long enough to actually wear down said shield bubble. And even if they did manage to bring the shields down that way, they'd have very little chance of doing more than superficial damage to the Harmony's hull.

At least in the specific context of this fight, it's just too damn hard to use direct-fire weapons designed for pinpoint targeting against an enemy who can sense, in real time, how you intend to aim those weapons, before you pull the trigger.

No, captain Boiys was really placing his hope on the deflector dish gambit that the mentats in Engineering were working on. Which would totally have worked if not for Betazoid scry-and-die hacks. Whatever it was. :p

Tell that to Riker!, actually how hard is it to manufacture a transporter accident and gain 2x Kahurangi for diplomacy?
Eddie Leslie:

"Son, let me tell you a secret about transporter accidents. In my experience, about two times out of three you fuck it up and get the captain's evil opposite. Now, you may be curious to know what Sue Kahurangi's evil opposite is like. I'm not."

The thing to remember is, from our point of view, Mirror, Mirror is the story of Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura being stranded aboard the evil opposite of their own spaceship and having to improvise a way home while trying to impersonate their own evil opposites.

From the point of view of everyone on the Enterprise EXCEPT Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura, it's the story of how they accidentally beamed aboard the evil opposites of four of the ship's senior officers. And of how Chekov and a couple of redshirts caught on to the danger but got their asses kicked, followed by Spock and Sulu putting their heads together and heroically restraining the impostors.

Way I figure it, with Leslie's luck he was one of the redshirts Mirror Kirk beat up in the mirrored version of this scene.
 
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Basically, the best they can come up with given bastard psychic enemies who keep predicting and sidestepping their every move is to fire broad-front pulses that are, say, a few hundred meters wide. That's (at the range in question) big enough that the Betazoids can't just sidle out of the way in time, even if they know the shot is coming.

...honestly that's still probably not enough. It's less a range issue (although even here the range is going to be still pretty huge) and more that Trek ships are just that fast.
 
I imagine a computer system would be immune to psychic detection sufficiently that it would nullify a Betazoid advantage.
 
Yeah, I specifically mentioned that.

This doesn't have to be canon, but if it is, basically it gave Harmony a huge advantage against the otherwise nominally equal Bold to the point where the Bold never really had a chance of winning a fight. The catch is, it would explicitly never have worked nearly as well against any computer-using species, while the downside (Betazoid telepaths being almost incapacitated by the psychic feedback of killing that many people) would still be hurting them almost as much.

Nor will it ever work nearly this well against the Licori again because delta-ray mind shielding is a thing... although that will at least muffle the death screams so that the Betazoids can fight at less of a disadvantage.

...honestly that's still probably not enough. It's less a range issue (although even here the range is going to be still pretty huge) and more that Trek ships are just that fast.
In my version of the fight, Harmony closed to practically point-blank range,* because Betazoid telepathy has range limits.* At the given range, they were dodging attacks by extremely small margins, a tactic that worked mainly because of just how easily they could read what their opponents were going to do next.

Against a normal opponent the advantage would be neutralized by the Betazoids' intense reluctance to keep shooting after their enemy's shields go down, and the amount of shield damage they take closing to effective 'psychic war' range in the first place (which is what explains why Harmony even got knocked down to around 50% shields in the first place).

But at range close enough for the relevant Betazoid officers to mind-read that well, it's not practical to sidestep attacks by a margin of more than, oh, a few hundred meters. Thus, 'shotgun blast of zappem particles' or whatever the Licori use actually is a viable way to deal with a ship that has 'lol dodge your aimpoint while you're still deciding to pull the trigger' hacks.
_________________________

*[ They'd like to be able to fight from long enough range that they can't feel people dying aboard the enemy ship- but that would put them outside of effective weapons range, because psychic death screams carry a lot farther than the precise details of 'steer here aim there.' Betazoids aren't just pacifists because they're nice, they're pacifists because killing hurts, and they go into every battle knowing it hurts. And a big chunk of that -5 war support we got hit with is probably the result of other Betazoids tuning into the minds of the crew of the Harmony and getting hit full blast with Veteran of the Psychic Wars ]*
 
Hah. ;)

I won't pretend I didn't think of Boskonian primaries while writing it, but... Honest answer, nothing so serious. The 'burning out' aspect is meant more in the sense of 'If you keep this up for twenty minutes you won't have a zapper cannon anymore,' not 'turn your gun into a one-shot bomb-pumped laser'

Basically, the best they can come up with given bastard psychic enemies who keep predicting and sidestepping their every move is to fire broad-front pulses that are, say, a few hundred meters wide. That's (at the range in question) big enough that the Betazoids can't just sidle out of the way in time, even if they know the shot is coming. But then they have the problem of getting something that diffuse to actually do any damage, even against a broad target like "the Harmony's shield bubble." So they have to ramp up the power output to the point where they cannot possibly keep this up long enough to actually wear down said shield bubble. And even if they did manage to bring the shields down that way, they'd have very little chance of doing more than superficial damage to the Harmony's hull.


At least in the specific context of this fight, it's just too damn hard to use direct-fire weapons designed for pinpoint targeting against an enemy who can sense, in real time, how you intend to aim those weapons, before you pull the trigger.

No, captain Boiys was really placing his hope on the deflector dish gambit that the mentats in Engineering were working on. Which would totally have worked if not for Betazoid scry-and-die hacks. Whatever it was. :p

Eddie Leslie:

"Son, let me tell you a secret about transporter accidents. In my experience, about two times out of three you fuck it up and get the captain's evil opposite. Now, you may be curious to know what Sue Kahurangi's evil opposite is like. I'm not."

The thing to remember is, from our point of view, Mirror, Mirror is the story of Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura being stranded aboard the evil opposite of their own spaceship and having to improvise a way home while trying to impersonate their own evil opposites.

From the point of view of everyone on the Enterprise EXCEPT Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura, it's the story of how they accidentally beamed aboard the evil opposites of four of the ship's senior officers. And of how Chekov and a couple of redshirts caught on to the danger but got their asses kicked, followed by Spock and Sulu putting their heads together and heroically restraining the impostors.

Way I figure it, with Leslie's luck he was one of the redshirts Mirror Kirk beat up in the mirrored version of this scene.

Now im sure Grand Admiral Vitalia Kahurangi, First Space Lord, Duchess-Marshall of the Kronus March, Knight Commander of the Order of the Twin Suns, the Butcher of Sydraxia, and victor of the Battle of Cardassia Prime; is a perfectly nice person.
 
Yeah, I specifically mentioned that.

This doesn't have to be canon, but if it is, basically it gave Harmony a huge advantage against the otherwise nominally equal Bold to the point where the Bold never really had a chance of winning a fight. The catch is, it would explicitly never have worked nearly as well against any computer-using species, while the downside (Betazoid telepaths being almost incapacitated by the psychic feedback of killing that many people) would still be hurting them almost as much.

Nor will it ever work nearly this well against the Licori again because delta-ray mind shielding is a thing... although that will at least muffle the death screams so that the Betazoids can fight at less of a disadvantage.

In my version of the fight, Harmony closed to practically point-blank range,* because Betazoid telepathy has range limits.* At the given range, they were dodging attacks by extremely small margins, a tactic that worked mainly because of just how easily they could read what their opponents were going to do next.

Against a normal opponent the advantage would be neutralized by the Betazoids' intense reluctance to keep shooting after their enemy's shields go down, and the amount of shield damage they take closing to effective 'psychic war' range in the first place (which is what explains why Harmony even got knocked down to around 50% shields in the first place).

But at range close enough for the relevant Betazoid officers to mind-read that well, it's not practical to sidestep attacks by a margin of more than, oh, a few hundred meters. Thus, 'shotgun blast of zappem particles' or whatever the Licori use actually is a viable way to deal with a ship that has 'lol dodge your aimpoint while you're still deciding to pull the trigger' hacks.
_________________________

*[ They'd like to be able to fight from long enough range that they can't feel people dying aboard the enemy ship- but that would put them outside of effective weapons range, because psychic death screams carry a lot farther than the precise details of 'steer here aim there.' Betazoids aren't just pacifists because they're nice, they're pacifists because killing hurts, and they go into every battle knowing it hurts. And a big chunk of that -5 war support we got hit with is probably the result of other Betazoids tuning into the minds of the crew of the Harmony and getting hit full blast with Veteran of the Psychic Wars ]*

The Konen scare me.
 
That was one of my secondary objectives in writing this omake, yes.

Now im sure Grand Admiral Vitalia Kahurangi, First Space Lord, Duchess-Marshall of the Kronus March, Knight Commander of the Order of the Twin Suns, the Butcher of Sydraxia, and victor of the Battle of Cardassia Prime; is a perfectly nice person.
Leslie:

"I'm going to be blunt with you guys. If we get Evil Kahurangi out of a transporter, I am staying the hell out of the resulting mess. Last time I got involved in evil opposite shenanigans, the anti-Kirk spent about fifteen seconds stress-testing the corridor walls with my head. And I was pretty lucky to last fifteen seconds; I think he may have been an even meaner son-of-a-gun in hand to hand than the real one."
 
So the Betazed have the Liir problem - actually killing people at vaguely practical ranges is horribly traumatic?

And that omake was giving me Gundam flashbacks because the only real difference between what the Betazeds did in and what a shipload of Newtypes would do is that the Newtypes are using flat-out precog and so don't need to close.
 
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