Remove ads

RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
Weirdo said:
That's actually a good question, what traits will our apprentices get from us? Will they get different traits? As is there are cases to be made for both productivity (we are having them get real good at making stuff first, and making lots of stuff will come from that, in addition to the influence of learning from someone who runes real fast would have on their runing speed) or Student of the Odd (if traits work like a dynasty trait, so we are giving them the trait that working under Yorri gave us, or the influence of working under a master who does all the weird research of Gromnil) or, less likely, mind for Gromnil (doubtful because they're already halfway through their apprentice hood when we got this, but possible considering they are probably working around more gromnil than nearly any other apprentice just because we got so much up here)

I agree, though I don't know how we wouldn't be able to knock the whole thing out at once, depending on if only Student of odd triggers Mind for Gromnil, in which case we can put 8 actions on it, or if both can trigger one another, in which case we have 9 I think, or if the traits can trigger off of themselves, in which case we have 10
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Soulcake already basically commented that we'd be getting five actions for every three we put in, so we'd max out at 6. Which is as much as what the Rune Metal pt 2 was.
 
BungieONI said:
Soulcake already basically commented that we'd be getting five actions for every three we put in, so we'd max out at 6. Which is as much as what the Rune Metal pt 2 was.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We'd max out at 8 in that case, I think, I'll map out my math in writing though because I did it all in my head

Any number followed by an r is one of the 4 actions we have to put in, rather than referring to the number of actions we get out

So, first, we put 2r actions in to it which then triggers SoO which adds an action, which then triggers MoG, which adds another for a total of 4, then we add another 1r action, so 3r in now, which triggers nothing so we have 5 actions in the thing now, (meaning that, going back to my previous comment, the first option was correct) so then we add another action, so all 4r actions are in, which triggers SoO which then triggers MoG, for a final total of 8 actions coming from 4r base actions.

SoO= Student of Odd.
MoG=Mind of Gromnil

I hope that above was understandable, so you can point out if I got anything wrong :D
 
Weirdo said:
We'd max out at 8 in that case, I think, I'll map out my math in writing though because I did it all in my head

Any number followed by an r is one of the 4 actions we have to put in, rather than referring to the number of actions we get out

So, first, we put 2r actions in to it which then triggers SoO which adds an action, which then triggers MoG, which adds another for a total of 4, then we add another 1r action, so 3r in now, which triggers nothing so we have 5 actions in the thing now, (meaning that, going back to my previous comment, the first option was correct) so then we add another action, so all 4r actions are in, which triggers SoO which then triggers MoG, for a final total of 8 actions coming from 4r base actions.

SoO= Student of Odd.
MoG=Mind of Gromnil

I hope that above was understandable, so you can point out if I got anything wrong :D
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hmm that's not right I don't think, just for the sake of limiting complexity. Student of the Odd and Mind for Metal both proc off of three actions, so the simplest means via bookkeeping is that they both "read" the same "set" of three actions, and then we get a total of two bonus actions putting us at five. Then our fourth action starts a new "set" and we total out at six actions.
 
BungieONI said:
Hmm that's not right I don't think, just for the sake of limiting complexity. Student of the Odd and Mind for Metal both proc off of three actions, so the simplest means via bookkeeping is that they both "read" the same "set" of three actions, and then we get a total of two bonus actions putting us at five. Then our fourth action starts a new "set" and we total out at six actions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah, that's where I went wrong, I thought Student of Odd triggered off of 2 actions rather than 3, my bad, in which case unless they can trigger off of themselves (in which case we'd have 8 actions) you are right
 
BungieONI said:
Hmm that's not right I don't think, just for the sake of limiting complexity. Student of the Odd and Mind for Metal both proc off of three actions, so the simplest means via bookkeeping is that they both "read" the same "set" of three actions, and then we get a total of two bonus actions putting us at five. Then our fourth action starts a new "set" and we total out at six actions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So if we put in an starting 4 actions and it becomes 6 do they both proc again?
 
fictionfan said:
So if we put in an starting 4 actions and it becomes 6 do they both proc again?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It shouldn't hopefully, that'd be impractical to keep track of and with the wrong number of base actions could lead to an extreme ballooning of actions.

If we stuck five actions into something for example, that'd be three base, then the two procs to land us at five actions, our fourth action is set down to put us at six actions and then our fifth action would put us at seven. Then if Student of the Odd and Mind of Metal proc'd off their own bonus actions and our fourth base action (the sixth action) we'd be pushed to nine actions. Then the seventh would push it to ten, and Student of the Odd and Mind of Metal would proc for a third (Procing off the ninth action) time leaving us at twelve actions, which procs it again.
 
Last edited:
Basically stacking "bonus action" things if they can proc off themselves can get very stupid very quickly if they aren't watched like hawks.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
I think it's unlikely. That kind of compounding feels a bit too powerful.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
fictionfan said:
Well it does represent us doing about nothing else those 10 years.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Indeed, I feel it a decent representation of how much a Runelord focused in his speciality can get done, the only thing outside of this one thing we'd be doing is teaching our apprentices
BungieONI said:
It shouldn't hopefully, that'd be impractical to keep track of and with the wrong number of base actions could lead to an extreme ballooning of actions.

If we stuck five actions into something for example, that'd be three base, then the two procs to land us at five actions, our fourth action is set down to put us at six actions and then our fifth action would put us at seven. Then if Student of the Odd and Mind of Metal proc'd off their own bonus actions and our fourth base action (the sixth action) we'd be pushed to nine actions. Then the seventh would push it to ten, and Student of the Odd and Mind of Metal would proc for a third time leaving us at twelve actions, which procs it again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As noted however, we'd be doing literally nothing else throughout that entire time working on something which we know a lot about, so, while a lot, so long as base actions remain scarce I doubt we'd have the reason to go all in like this on many actions, especially when any crises start
BungieONI said:
Basically stacking "bonus action" things if they can proc off themselves can get very stupid very quickly if they aren't watched like hawks.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Even if they can only trigger off of the other's bonus action with 5 actions that would be 9 total, which wouldn't happen often because we do things other than research Gromnil, yes it's powerful, but it's powerful within its own specific area of expertise which I feel balances it either with them triggering off of themselves or only off of one another

I dunno, I just think that even if they do trigger off of one another, it's a significant enough time investment required that it wouldn't happen often, and one trait is specific enough that it will probably only apply to one or two different possible actions for us to do
 
Weirdo said:
Indeed, I feel it a decent representation of how much a Runelord focused in his speciality can get done, the only thing outside of this one thing we'd be doing is teaching our apprentices
As noted however, we'd be doing literally nothing else throughout that entire time working on something which we know a lot about, so, while a lot, so long as base actions remain scarce I doubt we'd have the reason to go all in like this on many actions, especially when any crises start
Even if they can only trigger off of the other's bonus action with 5 actions that would be 9 total, which wouldn't happen often because we do things other than research Gromnil, yes it's powerful, but it's powerful within its own specific area of expertise which I feel balances it either with them triggering off of themselves or only off of one another

I dunno, I just think that even if they do trigger off of one another, it's a significant enough time investment required that it wouldn't happen often, and one trait is specific enough that it will probably only apply to one or two different possible actions for us to do
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Personally, I am like hard stop no on this sort of stacking silliness because it completely distorts actual difficulty. And like *rubs face* getting Fourteen Actions, out of five base actions is nearly TRIPLE our action count and that is completely insane because of the perverse incentives it encourages to knuckle down on every single thing we can. And further, not take apprentices because they're an active detriment at reaching this silliness.

Self-referential bonuses are in general, extremely bad for bookkeeping and keeping things from escalating through the roof.

E: For example. We can nearly One Turn the study and modification of the Master Rune of Gromril, if both Student of the Odd and Mind of Metal apply. We'd have two actions left to plink into it on the following turn. And in the context of lore modifying a Master Rune in a two decades is absurd.

E2: Even further from that, we could blitzkrieg the Rune Metal research tree to make these bonuses even worse if it gives more.
 
Last edited:
Weirdo said:
We'd max out at 8 in that case, I think, I'll map out my math in writing though because I did it all in my head

Any number followed by an r is one of the 4 actions we have to put in, rather than referring to the number of actions we get out

So, first, we put 2r actions in to it which then triggers SoO which adds an action, which then triggers MoG, which adds another for a total of 4, then we add another 1r action, so 3r in now, which triggers nothing so we have 5 actions in the thing now, (meaning that, going back to my previous comment, the first option was correct) so then we add another action, so all 4r actions are in, which triggers SoO which then triggers MoG, for a final total of 8 actions coming from 4r base actions.

SoO= Student of Odd.
MoG=Mind of Gromnil

I hope that above was understandable, so you can point out if I got anything wrong :D
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
1 = 1
2 = 2+1(SoO) = 3
3 = 3+1(SoO) +1 (MoG) = 5
4 = 4+2 (SoO) + 1(MoG) = 7
5 = 5 +2 (SoO) + 1 (MoG) = 8
6 = 6 +3 (SoO) +2 (MoG) = 11
 
BungieONI said:
E: For example. We can nearly One Turn the study and modification of the Master Rune of Gromril, if both Student of the Odd and Mind of Metal apply. We'd have one action left to plink into it on the following turn. And in the context of lore modifying a Master Rune in a decade is absurd.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Fair enough, but is about 20 years all that much better? That's what it is without stacking bonii, if we had 5 actions to throw into it that is, still only the equivalent of about 24 years I think even with only 4 (if 5 actions is 10 years and the creation and modification of the gromnil rune is 14 actions (haven't checked back, just looking at what you said) then that's 6 actions in one turn, 10 years, another 6 next turn, 20 years, then another 2 next turn, 24 years, with all 5 actions just add 1 to each 6 and that's the thing done in 20 years)

You are correct though, put in context that's a lot of actions within its speciality, so triggering off of itself is a bit much, but would triggering off of one another be as bad? That's 9 actions on it rather than 7, meaning 16 years modifying the Rune rather than 20 using the gromnil rune as an example
BungieONI said:
And in the context of lore modifying a Master Rune in a two decades is absurd.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If it were a minor modification what would be appropriate in terms of lore? Also, that's is the current state of affairs without any self triggering or triggering off of one another bonuses
 
Last edited:
Weirdo said:
Fair enough, but is about 20 years all that much better? That's what it is without stacking bonii, if we had 5 actions to throw into it that is, still only the equivalent of about 24 years I think even with only 4 (if 5 turns is 10 years and the creation and modification of the gromnil rune is 14 actions (haven't checked back, just looking at what you said) then that's 6 actions in one turn, 10 years, another 6 next turn, 20 years, then another 2 next turn, 24 years, with all 5 actions just add 1 to each 6 and that's the thing done in 20 years)

You are correct though, put in context that's a lot of actions within its speciality, so triggering off of itself is a bit much, but would triggering off of one another be as bad? That's 9 actions on it rather than 7, meaning 16 years modifying the Rune rather than 20 using the gromnil rune as an example
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So to put it bluntly I don't dig self referential mechanics at all, but to answer your question. Modifying a Master Rune takes 16 actions. If we have it so that Student of the Odd and Mind of Metal can proc off of their own bonus actions then we get additional procs at 6, 9, and 12, pushing us to a final action count of fourteen. This means that then we can dump fourteen actions, hypothetically, into the Master Rune of Gromril. Then dump two more base actions into it on the following turn to finish it, taking twenty years. This is flatly, kind of nuts and gets worse if the Rune Metal tree can improve upon the Mind of Metal or provide other similar traits. As it stands Mind of Metal makes The Rune Metal research easier already, and blitzkrieging that too hard is a distorting force on our progression. (If these bonuses are self-referential and we apply them to the Rune Metal, fourteen actions a turn means we can like go nuts through the next two parts all at once or something close to that)

As it stands if there's no self-referential bonus stacking from both of them then modifying the Master Rune of Gromril would, assuming we had no apprentices, take one turn to create seven actions, another turn to create another seven to put us at fourteen actions total, and then a third turn to create another two. Doing something else as well if we want since we only need two actions to do this. That's sensible to me, because three decades is enough time for an entire new generation to spring up into beardling status and be ready for their apprenticeships and Master Runes are generational sorts of affairs.

However, this kind of full dedication for two decades (and two more actions in the third decade) is both impractical, hard to manage without extremely good reason from the thread, and not really viable in a crisis and thus not really doable for most of what we can expect from the state of play what with the First War on the horizon and its aftermath. More likely is to do what we did with Rune Metal and spread it out in two to three action chunks, extending the research time to more like Five Actions, then Ten, then Fifteen on turn three, then the last action on turn 4, if we spend three actions every turn on it and modifying a master rune in two-fifths of a century is much more reasonable according to my grasp of how dwarfs do things. There's some wiggle that needs to be applied, but its sensible wiggle for a specialist in his specialty.
 
Last edited:
Recursive bonus stacking breaks systems really quickly. Best for traits to only proc off 'real' actions or it'd balloon and escalate out of control.
 
wrecksalot said:
I am pretty hype for Rune Metal part 3, it should hopefully give us even better Gromril to make Trollslayer out of.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm making a guess that it can give us Adamant, the second stable state of solid refined Gromril. Which would be, pretty big. Because that sounds like a Tier 4 material and Snorri hasn't really heard of it before.
 
Weirdo said:
You saying it's the second rather than refined or final... does that mean there's a third?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In some of the lore I recall Gromril has a third refined solid state called Laihtero. Laihtero is supposed to be a crystallized form of Law/Order, very similar to the domain of the Chaos Gods of Law, Solkan, Arianka (Tzeentch sticks her in a coffin of the stuff under Praag, and her sword was made out of it), and Alluminas. Solkan and Alluminas are not great at all. Regardless there's also a bit of lore which says that only the Ancestor Gods could possibly be able to refine the stuff.

The canonicity of Laihtero is up in the air, especially for this quest, but I'm hopeful for Adamant.
 
So is a lot of my knowledge of it up in the air frankly, because there's a lot of contradictory information about the refinement of Gromril out there. Its a hash honestly.
 
BungieONI said:
I'm making a guess that it can give us Adamant, the second stable state of solid refined Gromril. Which would be, pretty big. Because that sounds like a Tier 4 material and Snorri hasn't really heard of it before.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, I know Adamant is a thing, but judging from the results of part 2 we are still able to improve the quality of our Gromril work even if part 3 isn't the one that unlocks Adamant.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top