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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Snorri whitebeard was high king during the war of the beard, and as he is heir apparent, its likely that elves will show up soon.
Er, what? Snorri Whitebeard died quite a bit before the War of Vengeance. Hell, he died before Malekith even enacted his regicide plan.

The High King during the War of Vengeance was Gotrek Starbreaker.
 
I awake, and I come to answer questions.

A question for the qm, how long do Dawi live?

As others have said, you personally won't need to worry about dying from old age, Runelords die when they run out of stuff to do and you have active Runelords who were personally taught by Thungni. In the golden age, for a variety of reasons, its not uncommon for dwarfs to get to 600-650.
Seconded. Snorri whitebeard was high king during the war of the beard, and as he is heir apparent, its likely that elves will show up soon.
Quick correction, Gotrek Starbreaker was high king. No comment on when you'll see elves.
@soulcake, out of curiosity, about where do we sit among Runelords when it comes to age and knowledge?
You're a solid 6/10. Not the oldest, not the coolest, but cooler than a goodly half. Your deed and the compounding effect of distant relation bumped you up a good point. Remember, personal students of Thungni and some of the greatest Runelords your people will ever see are still active.
. Further we know the limits of runecraft as the canonical dwarves studied it. To top that off as a runelord our dear stout saint nick already has the majority of this knowledge apart form that of specialists. So what is most important is the acquisition of more and new knowledge. More than that that we know the future of Karaz Ankor, we know the limits and inherent faults of Dwarven culture. We know the things that caused it to become stagnant, which were embedded in it from the very beginning by the ancestor gods themselves.
A minor thing, but the ancestors didn't put things into place that are meant to stagnate the Karaz Ankor. It's only a poor combination of Dwarfen desire to go slow and steady paired with crippling loss and reactionary shift towards maintaining traditions that were now in danger of becoming lost that resulted from it that caused the downward spiral of canon.
 
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A minor thing, but the ancestors didn't put things into place that are meant to stagnate the Karaz Ankor. It's only a poor combination of Dwarfen desire to go slow and steady paired with crippling loss and reactionary shift towards maintaining traditions that were now in danger of becoming lost that resulted from it that caused the downward spiral of canon.

I knew I should have been more descriptive here. So I will explain myself further and provide a link to the articles which make me think some of Karaz Ankor's problems started this far back.

When I said inherent, I meant that the idea of perfecting what you have rather than learning something new is something the ancestors taught the earliest dwarfs, even when to do so is impractical. While these are teachings from the end times it is important to remember dwarves have long memories so these are likely to be things that at one point the ancestors did teach the Dwarves in some form the things listed below. It really wasn't a problem in their day because the world hadn't been drowned in Chaos, Necromancy and Dark Elf nonsense for 8000 years. I'm not saying they are the reason the Dwarves are facing such trouble in the time of the empire, I just mean that the seeds of that trouble were laid here and we could stamp it out before it occurs.

Examples

Grimnir saying
Grimnir link
  • Always attack when ordered (even if it is suicidal)
  • Slay as many enemies as possible even though wars are not necessarily won by killing more enemies in battle.

Morgrim saying
Morgrim link
  • Craftsmanship must be kept to the highest level. Shoddy work is unforgivable and dishonourable. Better is the enemy of good enough, quality is important but not at the expense of practicality in battlefield conditions. Yes that is kind of quality but I mean the sort of slapdash repair that real army engineers have to make, such as it will take 20 minutes to get back to home base and this repair will last 2 hours but after that the whole engine will have to be rebuilt. A human would do that a Dwarf would not.
  • Uncontrolled or dangerous innovations must not be undertaken, particularly not to the detriment of craftsmanship. Yes it is best to avoid being like the skaven but some risks are worth taking.
  • All knowledge is sacred and must be preserved, even at the cost of novel ideas … Does this one really need to explained?

Thungni saying
Thungni link
  • Never reveal the secrets of magic runecraft to any other than a fellow runesmith or one's own carefully chosen apprentice. Even though it would have been really great if engineers could understand runes.
  • Never allow a rune-weapon to fall into the hands of any Dwarf enemy, even if it must be lost or destroyed. Even though as long as they are uncorrupted they are recoverable.
  • Never allow any non-Dwarf who has somehow acquired some knowledge of runic magic to pass on their knowledge. This especially applies to humans who style themselves as "rune masters. Even though learning new points of view on an issue enhances the original.
 
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I got my headcanon confused with actual canon. Snorri whitebeard was just friends with Malekith.
Headcanon goes that he is also the white dwarf, returned to punish Malekith's oathbreaking
 
EDIT: TLDR at the bottom.

Examples are, Grimnir saying Grimnir
  • Always attack when ordered (even if it is suicidal)
  • Slay as many enemies as possible even though wars are not necessarily won by killing more enemies in battle.
You'll note that the strictures are meant for warriors and clerics. The reasoning being, dwarfs believe that as one gets older they become better. As superiors are older than their subordinates they are therefore better, and so the smartest option is to follow your superior's orders. You're right about the consequences of following those strictures to their logical endpoint, but the nature of dwarf society, in theory, is meant to act as a check and balance against it.

A soldier's duty is to do what they are ordered to and to inflict more casualties upon the enemy than they take whenever possible. The strategic level of command, the long term planning and goals of the overall campaign is the realm of the Dwarf Lords and Thanes who should be leading the army with all those in mind. When you consider Grimnir was likely leading the dwarfs in displays of strategic brilliance as of yet unheard of the following scriptures make even more sense. You're superiors know better than you, so if something doesn't look right, its probably because you don't know better.

Again, Grimnirs scriptures do rely on dwarf society functioning to make a lick of sense, because a Lord shouldn't be doing suicidal charges into enemy fortresses as heavily armed as a kar- oh wait, shit, that fortress was our home, and now grobi infest it and rage overtakes reason now charge, charge and die for the Ancestors, CHARGE!

(I do agree with you tho, I'm just of the opinion that Grimnir's strictures are meant to work in the confines of dwarf society running as it should/supposed to be)


Morgrim Morgrim
  • Craftsmanship must be kept to the highest level. Shoddy work is unforgivable and dishonourable. Better is the enemy of good enough
  • Uncontrolled or dangerous innovations must not be undertaken, particularly not to the detriment of craftsmanship. yes it is best to avoid being like the skaven but some risks are worth taking.
  • All knowledge is sacred and must be preserved, even at the cost of novel ideas … Does this one really need to explained?
Again, its a question of interpretation, one the radicals and conservatives of the guild have been going at for thousands of years. Even in the time of Morgrim himself, who is conspicuously silent on the matter.
Thungni saying Thungni

  • Never reveal the secrets of magic runecraft to any other than a fellow runesmith or one's own carefully chosen apprentice. Even though it would have been really great if engineers could understand runes.
  • Never allow a rune-weapon to fall into the hands of any Dwarf enemy, even if it must be lost or destroyed. Even though as long as they are uncorrupted they are recoverable.
  • Never allow any non-Dwarf who has somehow acquired some knowledge of runic magic to pass on their knowledge. This especially applies to humans who style themselves as "rune masters. Even though learning new points of view on an issue enhances the original.
From the viewpoint of a dwarf, these tenants make sense.
In the engineer's case, he should be able to find a runesmith to engrave the runes requested, and a runesmith should be willing to oblige him, an exchange is made and a war machine is made all the better. Why wouldn't a runesmith do this, it's not like they follow the rule of Pride that ardently?
Why let a rune weapon fall into enemy hands when a Runesmith can recreate it, the loss of an heirloom is a tragedy but to lose the secrets of our craft or even chance it could invite catastrophe. it's not like we lost the only person who knew how to make that rune a few years ago and they left no heir or something. that's crazy.
The elves helped create several of the magic-based runes, so while not totally sharing secrets, cross-collaboration did exist.

Again, you're right, a lot of these scriptures become stupid when society has suffered to such an extent that your best commanders are dead, you're facing new and more dangerous enemies every year that's growing more and more resistant to/countering your tech or the guild of runesmiths has suffered such an absolute collapse in terms of dwarfpower, and knowledge as to be a shadow of its own shadow...

Anywho those commandments were made in a time when society wasn't falling apart and had become so ingrained that dwarfen psychosis took over and refused to let them go when it was probably better to do so. Who knows, if the ancestors were there during the time of woes, they may have done away with half of those commandments, and they'd probably be the only ones who feasibly could, being you know, the ones that "put" them there in the first place. Theologically speaking anyways, practically, no dwarf gainsays the literal god of your people.

TLDR: Dwarfen stupidity does not mean the Ancestor Gods were stupid. Not like they were there to fix things when the rules became an active detriment. Really my only peeve is blaming the ancestors for this when it's clearly the youth that are the cause, for not understanding their commandments better :V
 
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*cough* sorry for misleading some people who maybe thought that was an update.

Ill call the vote in half an hour.
 
Apprentice Vote
Winning Vote
[X]Apprentice: for your apprentice(s) to put away.
[X]Home: Kraka Drakk.

Gain:
Apprentices:
Free labour, Young dwarfs eager and willing to learn at your feet, paying for your time and their learning by doing odd jobs and small tasks you cant be arsed to do use to teach them the ways of your profession. A sacred task, necessary for dwarfen society to function.
Kraka Drakk: The Dragon Hold, a home in construction, yet to be carved into the mountain just yet. The land untamed, the resources untapped and the settlers unafraid. Many of the tasks will be related to infrastructure runes, enchanting tools and wards against the higher propensity of terrifying creatures as well as the forces Dum. No grobi though, or well, not as many as down south, hopefully it stays that way.
*DING DING* Deed Synergy! A Hold of the Indebted: You note that a large portion of the young families that are part of the settlement have come with their children, the thing of note however is that many of the children are playing with toys you remember making. The Enchanted Dancing Goat, the Grumbling Stone Doll, the Miniature Gob Lobber with little stuffed grobi for ammunition, and many more. Many of the hold's colonists are young dwarfs who remember their debts, and hearing you were heading north, chose to follow and settle down. What better way to repay you than make sure the hold you settle down in is a successful one?
*DING DING* Master Synergy! Master Yorri's book of odd places: A tome Master yorri penned, recording many of the oddest places he's visited over his many treks for inspiration as a journeyman. Several pages speak of odd places in the area you're in right now as well as a small letter that reads:

Snorri,

Bold of you to come north, I haven't been there since I was a journeyman off looking for new and exciting ways to cook troll and be inspired to make new runes. I remember leaving a few caches and markers about, nothing too large or ostentatious, but if you ever find yourself wanting to visit some of the places I wrote about in that there book I sent you, they'll help you out. Never did get much of a chance to explore them as much as I wanted to, but maybe they'll help you out.

Yours,
Yorri.

P.S. Season your pan more, it's shameful how poorly you keep your utensils, and I certainly taught you better. Can't fry troll steak on a pan that unseasoned.


...
Turning your head to glance at your charges for a moment, you take a moment and partake in the age-old sport Dwarfen Elders love to do.

Gazing at the Garazi(young ones) ominously and grumbling nonsensically.

Like all things dwarfs partake in, this age-old tradition is an art form passed down from elder to Garazi(young ones) the only way dwarfs know how to.

First-hand experience.

As your masters taught you, the art in the grumble is to make sure they know you're complaining about something, but be vague enough that they can't really be sure what it is you're complaining about, and of course, it can't be something they can actively fix. Can't have a good grumble if the problem gets fixed you see. Faced with this dilemma, any good young dwarf will work all the harder on what they can do to appease their elders, you should know since it worked on you back in those heady days of youth.

Your beard was so much shorter then.

The Apprentice, the young bright-eyed wisp of a dwarf whose future was to succeed (HA) their elders once the oldest of you succumbed to the ravages of time, further refining their art until they too became a crotchety old dwarf wondering why the youth were so foolish. For most clans, the apprentice was often the relative of their master or the child/grandchild of a very close friend, their chosen craft often the trade of their clan or at least very closely related to it. Every child of that clan followed this age-old practice, carrying on the traditional craft of the clan or some trade-related to it for as long as dwarfs have existed.

Not so with the runesmiths; each and every runesmith's apprentice, while related by blood due to the nature of rune magic, was chosen for their ability and ability alone. Many a runesmith's son or daughter more often than not became a smith or engineer than they followed in their parent's profession. Your father, Gazul guard him, was a smith all his life, but by chance, the blood ran true and you were found with the sacred ability out of all of your siblings. So while these beardlings were related to you, that relation was more often through Thungni than it was your own immediate family. Especially so in your case.

[ ]Number: 1.
The apprentice will take up 1 of your actions every turn for at least 8 turns, after which you may decide if they're ready to progress to a journeyman or they require a bit more time learning. After 3 turns an apprentice's specialties become apparent, the bonus will grow until it matures at the minimum turn. The Apprentice will have 2 specialties, one from your two specialties and roll for the second from the overall pool.

[X]Number: 2.
Two of these little beardlings will still only take up 1 of your actions, but will instead take a minimum of 12 turns instead of 8, many of the lessons will be the same, but the extra time is for more personalized teaching depending on the apprentices' personal deficiencies(no master will ever say an apprentice has talents or specialties, only areas they aren't good in, at least to their apprentice). Both will receive their specialties at turn 3 and mature after the minimum threshold.

The apprentices themselves. Well right now none of them were much to sniff at, beardlings fresh from Kumenouht. But it's likely as you train them, they'll find something they'd be marginally better at failing than others.

Ah, those heady days of youth.

Looking at your apprentice(s)

[ ]Apprentice: Yokin Cobalteyes
Yokin is a youth of some 30 winters, named for his admittedly piercing blue eyes. A precocious fellow, Yokin spent most of his youth preparing to take up the art of Masonry as his father did before you saw him. Looking back at the lineage, his great-great-great-grandmother, who would be of an age with your cousin's grandmother, married into his great-great-great-grandfather's clan as part of a dual marriage ceremony. There's talent here for sure, quiet, methodical, meticulous from what you can tell, which is a lot thank you very much. Good traits to have in any runesmith.

[X]Apprentice: Dolgi Embermane
A shy young lad you met before moving to Kraka Drakk, Dolgi is rather anxious about meeting new people, but there's a quiet earnestness about him that makes most Longbeards grumble just that tiny bit quieter about him. Can't fault the lad for not trying hard enough, he's just saddled with his youth they would say(not in earshot of him of course). you can see him growing up to be a fine dwarf if you can coax the lad out of his shell a tad more. It boggles the mind that he was apparently shier before his grandmother got to him. Still, for all his quiet demeanour you won't lose him in a crowd or snowstorm, the boy's hair is the brightest shade of ruby you've seen in a good 200 years.

[X]Apprentice: Fjolla Igunsdottir
A Firebrand like no other. Fjolla is but a child in your eyes, but a prodigy not seen since the Twenty Loops potentially. At only 25, it's very very rare for a dwarf so young to leave home, but after conferring with her clan's elders there can be no doubt. To not cultivate this young lass' talents would be a great shame. Another reason, maybe the biggest reason at all, that her parents allowed it at all is because you're the girl's great-granduncle through your brother Hroki, and they trust you implicitly to keep her safe. Well, they're right about one thing, a dwarf fights all the harder when their family is behind them. That, and not wanting to go into the Underearth when it was your time, only to get yelled at by Hroki's spirit when you got there is just one in a list of many.

[Yorri'd]Apprentice: Joll Todriksson
Joll reminds you of your own master. Odd, but there's an underlying method to his oddity. Were you anyone else, you'd say Joll was fit to be a ranger with all his skill (for a beardling) at keeping quiet. But you aren't just anyone, you were a runelord and a student of one of the oddest runesmiths walking about the whole Karaz Ankor. If you don't take him you're sure Master Yorri would, the man's told you so himself. You can't say for sure who'd do a better job at teaching the lad, on one hand, Master Yorri would understand him instantly, on the other hand, he'd likely make the boy a runesmith even odder than himself. Bah.

you see that the flush on their cheeks was now just as much from embarrassment as it was the cold biting air of the far north.

Your mind wanders as your body deftly avoids the hustling and bustling of hardworking dwarfs going about the task of getting the hold settled so that the lot of you could get under some good solid stone. Taking a bit of amusement from hearing them stumble about behind you, doing their best to mimic your technique. Your thoughts are interrupted by a flash of light from the sun glinting off a shield and into your eye. Of course, you don't stumble or curse, showing weakness in front of an apprentice was a beardling's mistake, but you do look up into that great blue expanse and narrow your eyes at that big ball of fire hanging high over your head.

You glare mightily at the sun, snorting at it angrily. So angrily in fact, that the beardlings in a good five-metre radius stiffened up out of reflex before running about their tasks all the harder. Meanwhile, the few elders that were present nodded in your direction before beginning to grumble as well. This too was a time-honoured tradition, because the only thing more effective than one grumbling elder was a whole group of grumbling elders. Let it never be said that dwarfs can't make something useful out of a bad situation, you glance back down as you walk ever closer to the second largest building in the camp, the bar of course, grumbling about the sun the whole time.

You much preferred the moon anyway.

A good source for grumbling about though, as no dwarf can dim the sun you see.

AN: No matter the location you would've gotten a synergy from any of the masters and deeds, I will say that you did get one of the more interesting ones. Anywho after this, the turn vote starts proper and I start rolling. As always C&C any errors, since I definitely missed something. Sometimes I wonder if yall would've gone full Santa if I didn't say anything about my Christmas inspiration, then again, a lot of it was pretty overt.
 
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[X]Number: 2.
[X]Apprentice: Dolgi Embermane
[X]Apprentice: Fjolla Stokkisdottir

Let Yorri have Joll, we need more "odd" runesmiths in the Karaz Ankor.
 
[X]Number: 2.
[X]Apprentice: Fjolla Stokkisdottir
[X]Apprentice: Dolgi Embermane

I'm voting for the prodigy and the hard worker, hopefully they can bring out the best in each other.
 
[X]Number: 2.
[X]Apprentice: Yokin Cobalteyes
[X]Apprentice: Fjolla Stokkisdottir

These two together seem like they might play off each other nicely. Fjolla's a firebrand, so there's something or other she's likely to agitate about and it's probably not going to be very traditional, meanwhile Yokin sounds like a very detailed oriented kind of guy who likes a patient approach. Seeing what comes of the two of them both vying for our approval and attention would be very interesting.
 
[X]Number: 2.
[x]Apprentice: Fjolla Stokkisdottir
[x]Apprentice: Yokin Cobalteyes

Family for the first. The last choice will be picked up by our master.
 
[X]Number: 2.
[X]Apprentice: Fjolla Stokkisdottir
[X]Apprentice: Joll Todriksson
 
EDIT: TLDR at the bottom.


You'll note that the strictures are meant for warriors and clerics. The reasoning being, dwarfs believe that as one gets older they become better. As superiors are older than their subordinates they are therefore better, and so the smartest option is to follow your superior's orders. You're right about the consequences of following those strictures to their logical endpoint, but the nature of dwarf society, in theory, is meant to act as a check and balance against it.

A soldier's duty is to do what they are ordered to and to inflict more casualties upon the enemy than they take whenever possible. The strategic level of command, the long term planning and goals of the overall campaign is the realm of the Dwarf Lords and Thanes who should be leading the army with all those in mind. When you consider Grimnir was likely leading the dwarfs in displays of strategic brilliance as of yet unheard of the following scriptures make even more sense. You're superiors know better than you, so if something doesn't look right, its probably because you don't know better.

Again, Grimnirs scriptures do rely on dwarf society functioning to make a lick of sense, because a Lord shouldn't be doing suicidal charges into enemy fortresses as heavily armed as a kar- oh wait, shit, that fortress was our home, and now grobi infest it and rage overtakes reason now charge, charge and die for the Ancestors, CHARGE!

(I do agree with you tho, I'm just of the opinion that Grimnir's strictures are meant to work in the confines of dwarf society running as it should/supposed to be)



Again, its a question of interpretation, one the radicals and conservatives of the guild have been going at for thousands of years. Even in the time of Morgrim himself, who is conspicuously silent on the matter.

From the viewpoint of a dwarf, these tenants make sense.
In the engineer's case, he should be able to find a runesmith to engrave the runes requested, and a runesmith should be willing to oblige him, an exchange is made and a war machine is made all the better. Why wouldn't a runesmith do this, it's not like they follow the rule of Pride that ardently?
Why let a rune weapon fall into enemy hands when a Runesmith can recreate it, the loss of an heirloom is a tragedy but to lose the secrets of our craft or even chance it could invite catastrophe. it's not like we lost the only person who knew how to make that rune a few years ago and they left no heir or something. that's crazy.
The elves helped create several of the magic-based runes, so while not totally sharing secrets, cross-collaboration did exist.

Again, you're right, a lot of these scriptures become stupid when society has suffered to such an extent that your best commanders are dead, you're facing new and more dangerous enemies every year that's growing more and more resistant to/countering your tech or the guild of runesmiths has suffered such an absolute collapse in terms of dwarfpower, and knowledge as to be a shadow of its own shadow...

Anywho those commandments were made in a time when society wasn't falling apart and had become so ingrained that dwarfen psychosis took over and refused to let them go when it was probably better to do so. Who knows, if the ancestors were there during the time of woes, they may have done away with half of those commandments, and they'd probably be the only ones who feasibly could, being you know, the ones that "put" them there in the first place. Theologically speaking anyways, practically, no dwarf gainsays the literal god of your people.

TLDR: Dwarfen stupidity does not mean the Ancestor Gods were stupid. Not like they were there to fix things when the rules became an active detriment. Really my only peeve is blaming the ancestors for this when it's clearly the youth that are the cause, for not understanding their commandments better :V

I suppose the take away is that any absolutist view of a doctrine leads to failure and moderation is required. Just as equally if we proceed without moderation we could become something truly monstrous. I mean really terrible things like making an alloy out of Gromril and warpstone or something else awful. Still I don't think it would be a bad thing to found our own home with more of a inventive mindset.

Also

[X]Number: 2.
[X]Apprentice: Fjolla Stokkisdottir
[X]Apprentice: Joll Todriksson
 
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