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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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ArchAIngel said:
I dislike Apprentices for one simple reason.

If we do Rune Stuff, we are assured to get somewhere.

If we teach an Apprentice, they can just straight up die for no reasons we can control.

Assured benefit for us and the Karaz Ankor versus potential benefit.

I will not actively oppose them, say they're bad or boring, but they are inefficient, and in the end, I dislike that.
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Point of order, if we do rune research and no apprentices it's posibile for Snori to die taking all his shinny new runes to the grave as he never taught them to anyone. Mind the quest would be over then so that's an abstract sort of worry.
 
ArchAIngel said:
I dislike Apprentices for one simple reason.

If we do Rune Stuff, we are assured to get somewhere.

If we teach an Apprentice, they can just straight up die for no reasons we can control.
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If we do anything, we can straight up die for no reasons we can control. If we die after doing Rune Stuff only, out legacy to the Karaz Ankor is limited to our personal creations. If we teach apprentices, out legacy includes everything they made as well.
 
Red Bovine said:
Problem is that people are really not interested in waiting centuries or dozens of turns to finally get around to making the super Gronti that we have been talking about for ages. Especially when taking into account that we may run into other things that we may need to get done further prolonging things. Example being that we would be extremely unlikely to even save that much since people would probably want to use Adamant throughout the quest making it unrealistic that we would be able to save a large amount.

The other issue is making the thing Bloodthirster size, we only have a number of talisman slots and needing to eat up one slot just to prevent it from sinking into the ground just seems wasteful. And of course there is the issue of saving enough Adamant for something that big. There is a reason that people seem to prefer an average Ogre sized Gronti. Think the best you will get is instead of 'average' you can convince people to go with a 'lord' sized Ogre build which would be more in between average Ogre and Bloodthirster size.

Besides that people are really against projects with unreasonable time taken up. One example is people against spending more actions then necessary building up defenses and many really not liking the idea of spending several turns in a row reading about digging out a huge tunnels and making the same defenses over and over gain. I'm also pretty sure people really don't want to set a precedent of taking forever to use T5 materials since at this pace we may never end up using any of them.
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I really can't agree with their view point of not being able to wait, a lot of stuff that we want to accomplish is going to take a lot of time and effort, and we can't just rush things because we don't like that.
 
argenten said:
I see what you're saying and you do have a point looks sidelong at Dolgi. I kinda see apprentices as investment in force/effort multiplication. I mean, look at what Senna's been able to accomplish, yeah I know she's a rare talent but still, if Snorri hadn't trained her, the stuff wouldn't have happened. If we roll on runes we also have the chance of failing them and losing that effort to. So as long as we're having to depend on RNG we are risking wasted effort at some point ya know?
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Wasn't there a rollfor Thungi to take her on? I take it's another case of the thread thinking we alone can influence things with how much people are saying the Apprentices's impact would be gone if we hadn't taken them. They were great talents, they would have done great things regardless of who took them on.
 
Ferdiad said:
Wasn't there a rollfor Thungi to take her on? I take it's another case of the thread thinking we alone can influence things with how much people are saying the Apprentices's impact would be gone if we hadn't taken them. They were great talents, they would have done great things regardless of who took them on.
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Okay, fair nough on that, talent like her's would have been noticed eventually.
 
ArchAIngel said:
I dislike Apprentices for one simple reason.

If we do Rune Stuff, we are assured to get somewhere.

If we teach an Apprentice, they can just straight up die for no reasons we can control.

Assured benefit for us and the Karaz Ankor versus potential benefit.

I will not actively oppose them, say they're bad or boring, but they are inefficient, and in the end, I dislike that.
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Snorri's runic creations could well be lost or destroyed on a bad random event dice roll as well. Just because the apprentices' rolls are public and the others hidden doesn't mean that other things aren't rolled for.

Ferdiad said:
Wasn't there a rollfor Thungi to take her on? I take it's another case of the thread thinking we alone can influence things with how much people are saying the Apprentices's impact would be gone if we hadn't taken them. They were great talents, they would have done great things regardless of who took them on.
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The Last Runelord of the North

Snorri is in a particularly important position of influence. Other people can sometimes compensate for him if he doesn't step up, but that doesn't mean that what he does is irrelevant as people often seem to claim. He's High Priest of Thungi and Guildmaster of the Guild of Runesmiths. What he does and the precedent he sets matter far more than just him. It's from his example that other runesmiths likely take their cues on how they should behave, whether they should prioritise taking apprentices or hiding from the world in caves researching runes. Snorri is not the island that people seem to assume he is. He's a both religious and secular leader within the dwarven community of runesmiths.

And even on the personal scale, Snorri is very likely the most capable teacher of runecraft belonging to a northern hold. Other people might take in the apprentices that he would have otherwise taught, but they're unlikely to end up as capable as they would if he taught them.
 
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Also, half the reason the dwarves are fucked in canon is because they lost so much of their Rune Lore. We need to spread that shit as far and wide as we can to prevent that from happening.
 
turn all future apprentices into workshop assistances and start up Santa's Workshop. Every year the apprentices will replicate our feat and makes toys for every beardling and then we will go and deliver them

edit: trains their productivity, detail skills, and how to handle pressure.
 
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Personally I originally wanted to wait longer and get more stuff done before picking up some apprentices. The Yorri prods though were a big unaccounted for boost. So we've gotten a lot more done than I expected and now I don't mind moving onto the more constrained schedule earlier.
 
tri2 said:
turn all future apprentices into workshop assistances and start up Santa's Workshop. Every year the apprentices will replicate our feat and makes toys for every beardling and then we will go and deliver them

edit: trains their productivity, detail skills, and how to handle pressure.
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Clearly you failed Santa 101.

Santa doesn't have Dwarf helpers, he has Elves. We need to grab some Asur and trick them into indentured servitude. I mean, the Dwemer did it. :V
 
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Alratan said:
Snorri's runic creations could well be lost or destroyed on a bad random event dice roll as well. Just because the apprentices' rolls are public and the others hidden doesn't mean that other things aren't rolled for.



The Last Runelord of the North

Snorri is in a particularly important position of influence. Other people can sometimes compensate for him if he doesn't step up, but that doesn't mean that what he does is irrelevant as people often seem to claim. He's High Priest of Thungi and Guildmaster of the Guild of Runesmiths. What he does and the precedent he sets matter far more than just him. It's from his example that other runesmiths likely take their cues on how they should behave, whether they should prioritise taking apprentices or hiding from the world in caves researching runes. Snorri is not the island that people seem to assume he is. He's a both religious and secular leader within the dwarven community of runesmiths.

And even on the personal scale, Snorri is very likely the most capable teacher of runecraft belonging to a northern hold. Other people might take in the apprentices that he would have otherwise taught, but they're unlikely to end up as capable as they would if he taught them.
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Going to counter this by saying Snorri isn't the absolute center of everything going on. That's the issue with 'Protagonist syndrome', some players seriously overplaying our importance, thinking that we are the most competent person in the quest and that they need to do absolutely everything. Hell in one quest this is so bad it's outright called 'Avernite arrogance', assuming that most Warhammer fans likely know what quest I am talking about.

Thing is that people are perfectly willing to do things like help out the horde with a number of projects and even taking on new apprentices every once in a while. The issue that a lot of people have with is some people's obsession to try to control everything and an over inflated sense of importance in regards to our PC.

I mean the control issue is so bad that some people refused to listen in regards to all the reasons that we are unable to improve our defenses at the moment and just kept on obsessing over it to the point that it borders on crippling since there are a number of other ways to help our Hold yet some people will keep obsessing over that one thing. Which is pretty baffling when you take into account that people repeatedly kept pointing out how we had a literal god working on our defenses and saying that we were just not able to do better than said god. And yet people refused to address this, like they didn't like admitting that there are just people better than us at things.

This is one of the examples that I use to point to some players having an inflated sense of the importance of our PC. While most players are willing to admit and even accept that other people are not only competent but even just flat out better than stuff at us while others seem to keep insisting that we need to control everything with it seeming that it's because they believe that as the PC should be more competent than everyone. when realistically that's not how it works. It was bad enough that at some point someone outright insisted that we were more important than the king. Like wow.

Basically most people would prefer that we just trust things to other competent people, work what we are good at and just not try to do everything ourselves since we trust other people to do as good if not better jobs.
Deathwings said:
Also, half the reason the dwarves are fucked in canon is because they lost so much of their Rune Lore. We need to spread that shit as far and wide as we can to prevent that from happening.
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It's been repeatedly pointed out but it literally was spread out far and wide with Runesmiths actually being common. Again, the issue was that most of the population was wiped out during the time of Woes. Which makes sense since if you lost around 90 percent of your population that would likely include a huge chunk of people in a specific profession. Or to put it another way it if we were playing a post apocalyptic quest set in say the early 90s where most of the population was wiped out it wouldn't be surprising to hear that doctors and physicists became rare and thus leading to knowledge about said professions that was accumulated by humanity as a whole getting lost.
 
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Yes, it was not us who turned the alliance with the Skarrenraz Ankor into what it is today, it was King Otrek.

It was not us who dealt with the wandering marauding armies prior to Kholek's arrival and after Grimnir left, it was Otrek and Gloin.

It was not us who even STARTED the alliance with the Skarrenraz, it was ranger bro.

It was not us who defeatedthe attempts on the Underway to Kraka Drak, it was Gloin.

It was not us who saved the King of the Skies, it was Yorri.
 
Honestly, I enjoy reading about apprentices because characters enrich the narrative. It also gives Snorri a reason not to lock himself away in the workshop - and I feel those are the most boring turns because it means Snorri is playing off against no-one.
 
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Andmeuths said:
Honestly, I enjoy reading about apprentices because characters enrich the narrative. It also gives Snorri a reason not to lock himself away in the workshop - and I feel those are the most boring turns because it means Snorri is playing off against no-one.
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I would disagree that the turns without apprentices are boring because Soulcake writes well enough that Snorri getting into his projects is infectious for me, but I do agree that the segments with the apprentices are fun for me to read too because Snorri is both a good teacher...and a bit of a Brian Blessed in terms of how much he can ham it up.
 
BelligerentGnu said:
People.....

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Personally I'm not really mad, more exasperated and I'm pretty sure the same applies to other people complaining about some of the other people taking this way too seriously. I mean you have a bunch of people who expected this quest to mostly be about researching rune magic and making awesome epic stuff and having fun only to continually to see people constantly try to make this quest heavily about politics and influencing history along with a number of people doing things like pushing to spend multiple turns building a tunnel in a row even when people keep pointing out how impractical that would be.

Like, most people here came to make awesome epic artifacts and having fun. A lot of people are not into the idea of doing things like literally spending multiple turns in a row building a tunnel/reading about tunnel building or getting heavily involved in politics when that isn't our job or why people wanted to play a quest like this. It honestly just starts to go from playing a game to feeling like chores and work. That kind of thing is why things like powergaming/min-maxing are really hated among questers.
 
i wonder if snorri actually did adopt some elven orphans, would the war of vengeance make the other dwarves force snorri to kick them out or kill them? just hypothetically speaking.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Yes, it was not us who turned the alliance with the Skarrenraz Ankor into what it is today, it was King Otrek.

It was not us who dealt with the wandering marauding armies prior to Kholek's arrival and after Grimnir left, it was Otrek and Gloin.

It was not us who even STARTED the alliance with the Skarrenraz, it was ranger bro.

It was not us who defeatedthe attempts on the Underway to Kraka Drak, it was Gloin.

It was not us who saved the King of the Skies, it was Yorri.
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It was however, us which set the example which led to our hold being ridiculously heavily equipped in runic gear and runic defenses, because the runesmiths follow our lead and our lead was to make runic gear for lots of dwarves and built lots of runic defenses.

That others can accomplish things does not in any way refute that when it comes to Runesmith things, we are it. The example that Northern Runesmiths imitate.
 
The thing about apprentices is, if you keep going long enough you have grand-apprentices and then great-grand-apprentices and then so on. Keep taking apprentices long enough and eventually you'll be able to fill a hall with apprentices whose masters enjoy surprising them them various attention-grabbing methods. But if helps if you keep the pipeline going.
 
veekie said:
It was however, us which set the example which led to our hold being ridiculously heavily equipped in runic gear and runic defenses, because the runesmiths follow our lead and our lead was to make runic gear for lots of dwarves and built lots of runic defenses.

That others can accomplish things does not in any way refute that when it comes to Runesmith things, we are it. The example that Northern Runesmiths imitate.
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This!

Also note that as we're a very good teacher us teaching more apprentices passes that down.
 
veekie said:
It was however, us which set the example which led to our hold being ridiculously heavily equipped in runic gear and runic defenses, because the runesmiths follow our lead and our lead was to make runic gear for lots of dwarves and built lots of runic defenses.

That others can accomplish things does not in any way refute that when it comes to Runesmith things, we are it. The example that Northern Runesmiths imitate.
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Didn't we actively organise that and wrangle the runesmiths to cooperate? It wasn't a simple "they followed our example" as I recall.

Briefvoice said:
The thing about apprentices is, if you keep going long enough you have grand-apprentices and then great-grand-apprentices and then so on. Keep taking apprentices long enough and eventually you'll be able to fill a hall with apprentices whose masters enjoy surprising them them various attention-grabbing methods. But if helps if you keep the pipeline going.
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And some people don't care about that.
 
Fezzes said:
Didn't we actively organise that and wrangle the runesmiths to cooperate? It wasn't a simple "they followed our example" as I recall.
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Yup and that kind of wrangle was nigh unheard of. Rune Smith's aren't naturally or historical known for mass organization our acts of what most would consider normal guildmaster wrangling is weird by our profession standards.

Rune Smith's are REALLY independent most of the time.
 
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