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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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People have been murmuring about Adamant ever Snorri's finding of the great Gromril mine, near the start of the quest. Then there was about a dozen turns of slowly working on the Rune Metal series before we finally saw it. The shiny silvery metal has been hyped up in story, and in thread, and the mystical and personal nature of the journey it took to get there was cool; it's not just something that was a "wait on a 10 turn countdown", it was made personal and cool.

People then getting super excited about Adamant once we finally have it and enthusiastically going "Ooh can we make this? Or that? Or this? Ooh, I want to make everything out of Adamant!" with it is not some kind of power gaming sin. Neither is people going "Wait, this amazing metal boosts Runes? I want to use it even more!" It's... I lack words to express myself.

So I'll just say that: people are excited about Snorri making things, about uncovering things, and about using the coolest of materials, and about doing cool things.

That's... that's just enthusiasm and excitement... That is the opposite of "soulless." We're a bunch of kids getting presents for Christmas, and chattering about what we'll make of it.
 
Garlak said:
So I'll just say that: people are excited about Snorri making things, about uncovering things, and about using the coolest of materials, and about doing cool things.

That's... that's just enthusiasm and excitement... That is the opposite of "soulless." We're a bunch of kids getting presents for Christmas, and chattering about what we'll make of it.
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Quite so and is in fact a fertile ground for creativity because enthusiasm means people making suggestions and getting involved.

SakSak said:
I feel like quoting myself from just a few days ago:



Seriously, anyone making the argument that "unless we use X as base material, we will be providing a third rate work" has fundamentally misunderstood what it means to be a runelord.
No, we do not need to use full adamant plates or whatever to create Epic and Legendary artefacts. We have created both without adamant, and we can continue to do so in the future.

Peoiple are seriously forgetting that adamant is a super-metal that anyone who isn't a runelord probably doesn't even know the name of, and most dwarven kings have never seen. Most runelords probably have never seen adamant, except unless worn by an Ancestor God. This stuff is a secret society level whispered secret among highly respected 500+ year old runelords.

Are we seriously at the point in our hubris, where we are declaring 99.99999% percent of dwarven runecraft to be third rate garbage simply by virtue of it not being made of adamant?
Seriously, I say again: as a runelord, I would find it highly insulting if someone told me that I can't possibly make an absolutely stunning masterpiece out of whatever damn material I choose.
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Yeah this as well. As a very appropriate example, what kicked Trollslayer over to T4 was the runes we put on it.
 
Garlak said:
People have been murmuring about Adamant ever Snorri's finding of the great Gromril mine, near the start of the quest. Then there was about a dozen turns of slowly working on the Rune Metal series before we finally saw it. The shiny silvery metal has been hyped up in story, and in thread, and the mystical and personal nature of the journey it took to get there was cool; it's not just something that was a "wait on a 10 turn countdown", it was made personal and cool.

People then getting super excited about Adamant once we finally have it and enthusiastically going "Ooh can we make this? Or that? Or this? Ooh, I want to make everything out of Adamant!" with it is not some kind of power gaming sin. Neither is people going "Wait, this amazing metal boosts Runes? I want to use it even more!" It's... I lack words to express myself.

So I'll just say that: people are excited about Snorri making things, about uncovering things, and about using the coolest of materials, and about doing cool things.

That's... that's just enthusiasm and excitement... That is the opposite of "soulless." We're a bunch of kids getting presents for Christmas, and chattering about what we'll make of it.
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Personally I find this quite fine and exciting. This sort of stuff is what breeds new ideas and makes quests exciting!
As long as it is not paired with the argument "anything and everything we make from here on out absolutely must be made of adamant, or we will be letting our pride and talent down and providing third rate equipment like some beardling hack. You don't want to be a third rate beardling hack do you? So join team Full Adamant Everything Forever!"
 
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BungieONI said:
Yeah this as well. As a very appropriate example, what kicked Trollslayer over to T4 was the runes we put on it.
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I'm half-convinced that it was the personal connection that contributed too. Scratch that, it's not half, it's fully convinced.

It wasn't just that we made a Rune combo. It was the fact that Snorri was there and fought the trolls himself too; it was part of his history, now. Snorri was making an item to commemorate something he was also part of. And because the Rune combo was one that harkened and referenced both Gromril itself, and even the demise of the Troll.

It was everything about Trollslayer that made it special.
 
I mean, there was also the little fact that we overflowed the required actions by something like 6 times, to the degree where Soulcake said he'd implement caps on how much requests can be overflowed a little afterwards.
 
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Garlak said:
People have been murmuring about Adamant ever Snorri's finding of the great Gromril mine, near the start of the quest. Then there was about a dozen turns of slowly working on the Rune Metal series before we finally saw it. The shiny silvery metal has been hyped up in story, and in thread, and the mystical and personal nature of the journey it took to get there was cool; it's not just something that was a "wait on a 10 turn countdown", it was made personal and cool.

People then getting super excited about Adamant once we finally have it and enthusiastically going "Ooh can we make this? Or that? Or this? Ooh, I want to make everything out of Adamant!" with it is not some kind of power gaming sin. Neither is people going "Wait, this amazing metal boosts Runes? I want to use it even more!" It's... I lack words to express myself.

So I'll just say that: people are excited about Snorri making things, about uncovering things, and about using the coolest of materials, and about doing cool things.

That's... that's just enthusiasm and excitement... That is the opposite of "soulless." We're a bunch of kids getting presents for Christmas, and chattering about what we'll make of it.
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I view enthusiasm for actually making things out of the super valuable material of legend completely different then people suddenly going 'let's use it to boost our runes!' as just boring and soulless since it feels like more about the whole power gaming issue that this quest has in a lot cases. We have people constantly trying to cheese the system and heavily focusing on numbers over narrative. Which can get really annoying in quest. I mean here we have a super valuable material and we can make damn near anything out of it and we have people immediately try to push to use it on every rune just for a general boost/a bigger number.

An issue I have with Adamant is that it seems people are treating it as the end all of all materials and completely forgetting that we do have other materials and would want to avoid people having an over reliance on Adamant for everything.
BungieONI said:
Part of this, that is probably never going to go away, is that Adamant is the most readily available T4 we have. Everything else takes upwards of 3+ turns to arrive, and that doesn't work for a lot of projects that need doing now, and ready sources of other T4s are thin on the ground.

Weapons not being improved by Adamant is a silly idea though. It directly improves the runes on that weapon. Take our Axe, Master Rune of Currents, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Daemonslaying. That would be directly better if it was on Adamant. Adamant is also harder than Gromril while being lighter and is basically unbreakable to a point surpassing Gromril. These are important qualities for a weapon.
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Actually the turn thing isn't actually that big a deal when you take into account that we also do do research and some projects take multiple actions to do. I mean currently I can see our future roster full with research and planning on the actual crafting. 3 Turns isn't actually that big a deal when taking that into account and we can speed that up with favors that exist to be spent.

In regards to the weapon thing I did point out that some weapons seem like they would work a lot better made out of Adamant, not that they wouldn't be improved. Example being something like a weapon rune using Master of purification runes and daemon slaying to create a seriously powerful anti daemon weapon since the Adamant would seem like it would synergize a lot better relative most 'normal' weapons that can be made for it.
 
That runic combo seems perfect for a banner meant to represent a hold that is a bulwark against the magics and demons coming from the North. Having a core formation of the hold's throng having a banner with that runic combo attached will be extremely dangerous against the demonic forces, which is wonderful given the age we are in.
 
Red Bovine said:
@soulcake Would you mind chiming in with the whole using Adamant makes everything better bit? Because the issue I have with that is that it seems like it would make every other material inferior and have people be way less creative. What with people likely going to try to put it in literally every thing.

I suggest something like using it in runes only improves magical resistance in a lot of cases and some materials are actually better depending on what you want. Example being that using a high level material that themed around lighting would be far better to use in a hypothetical epic tier artifact whose theme is lighting while using Adamant would actually weaken it in that regards. Say something along the lines of Adamant giving a 20 percent boost while a regent from the Sky King used in a lighting rune would twice the boost. This can also apply to some things that would benefit a lot more from Adamant than other materials depending on what it was.

Suggesting this to encourage people to be more creative and work on planning instead of trying to fit Adamant into literally everything which feels like it would take away it's uniqueness.
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I can't exactly stop people from spending the adamant how they want. It's up to you guys to decide how to best allocate the material you were given, but don't think you need it to make a t4 item or make or break the effect of a specific runic combo. This is a Runelord quest, not a material sciences quest.

Material was never meant to matter as much when deciding the tier of the item, at least when I envisioned this quest. I think that, if I had done this with Gromril, like in the event you didn't have an effectively infinite source in terms of mechanics, this same argument would appear. Where you have a limited supply of this material you know will make your runes better if you slap it on everything but also know there's a set of stuff that requires it to even get started. Mechanically, the material you use will not change the tier of the finished product barring extreme edge cases where you're on the cusp of entering the next tier. Will it help? Certainly. But the meat and potatoes of getting a powerful artifact is and always will be the Runes you slap on that sucker and the effort you dump into it. Like for instance, the dragonhide in the cloaks you're making? Heat and Cold resistance and tougher overall, but the majority of what makes them the tier ??? items they are, will be the Pyrestrike and Hailmantle combos you discovered not the fact that you used T3 Dragonhide. If you'd slapped on adamant the combo would be mechanically and narratively stronger, yes, but thats just for game effect not so much the tier of the item if that makes sense. The school of thought that can arise from this is spreading the buff of adamant out to as much as possible or concentrating it to create even better items. Because if it isn't clear, a pure adamant item will have more of an effect on the Runes applied than the bare minimum. But that's a decision the thread has to decide.

Im not sure if that made coherent sense, but I guess all I'll say is that the eldest member of the Burudin could still make the same if not higher tier item with nothing but wood and steel than you could with adamant and silver wutroth. Because these are old and masterful fellas, many of whom are the literal living children and grandchildren of Thungni.
 
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Red Bovine said:
I view enthusiasm for actually making things out of the super valuable material of legend completely different then people suddenly going 'let's use it to boost our runes!' as just boring and soulless since it feels like more about the whole power gaming issue that this quest has in a lot cases. We have people constantly trying to cheese the system and heavily focusing on numbers over narrative. Which can get really annoying in quest. I mean here we have a super valuable material and we can make damn near anything out of it and we have people immediately try to push to use it on every rune just for a general boost/a bigger number.
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First: we don't even have that many numbers in this quest to be 'soullessly powergaming' about!

Most of what number-talk we do have, goes into talking about how to schedule and use our whopping 5 action points each turn and trying to balance out what we'll do the next turn or the turn after that.
I mean here we have a super valuable material and we can make damn near anything out of it and we have people immediately try to push to use it on every rune just for a general boost/a bigger number.
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That's not powergaming, that's just sensible! o_O

We have a precious resource. We learned that it's an amplifier for our craft. We want to use it to boost our craft. What next? Would it be powergaming to want to use the Firestones for things that need to be kept warm or that need fire too?

Not to mention that there's people who want to be economical about the usage of Adamant, using small amounts of it as boosters, and people who want to build up tons of Adamant and make huge works from it like the Griffon's armor or a Gronti. So there are people who want to try to have to use it to get the biggest bang for their buck; and there are people who wants to load up on Adamant and make huge stuff out of it.

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Thor's Twin said:
That runic combo seems perfect for a banner meant to represent a hold that is a bulwark against the magics and demons coming from the North. Having a core formation of the hold's throng having a banner with that runic combo attached will be extremely dangerous against the demonic forces, which is wonderful given the age we are in.
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And now I want to make a matching banner that swaps the Grungni and Valaya master runes.

I.e. Master Rune of Valaya + Grungni + Spellbreaking

The nice thing about the Master Rune of Valaya? It takes Troll's Blood to make. We're next door to Troll Country. We don't even need to order Troll parts. :)
 
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Best case scenario is that the Banner Combo responds to non "materialized" magic (spells, for example), because it would be excellent for Kraka Drak in general because magic blows so strongly here, and in particular because of what just happened with the Incursion. Something to be valuable regardless of the opponent beyond this conflict if we don't die
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Best case scenario is that the Banner Combo responds to non "materialized" magic (spells, for example), because it would be excellent for Kraka Drak in general because magic blows so strongly here, and in particular because of what just happened with the Incursion. Something to be valuable regardless of the opponent beyond this conflict if we don't die
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Hmmm. I could definitely see it doing that.

Hmmmmmm. We might want to consider putting that Combo on a future talisman Eva, because even though its a Master Rune, its an Ancestor Master Rune and those can go wherever going by stuff previously said. It honestly reminds me of the Conversion combo but bigger and better. I think someone might have raised this idea already actually.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
The Ancestors Protect

Combo, Ancestral Aegis: [Master Rune of Grungni, Rune of Valaya, Rune of Spellbreaking] [Magic cast at the formation bearing this banner will be diffused, broken down and used to power a swirling field of Runic energy and wind that can withstand even the most ruinous of blows from sources mundane and magical, and burns the daemonic.] Valaya and Grungni, hearth and armour maker, protectors of Dwarfkind now and forever, gird us now and bring your fury upon the foe!
[Tier 4] Bar of Adamant x3, +1 Bar every Turn

We can make armor for ourselves now, as a living billboard.
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Woke up a bit ago
you want me to put this in the potential combo sheet?
Normally I wouldn't ask, but this is fleshed out enough that i'm pretty sure it's a finished idea
 
Red Bovine said:
In regards to the weapon thing I did point out that some weapons seem like they would work a lot better made out of Adamant, not that they wouldn't be improved. Example being something like a weapon rune using Master of purification runes and daemon slaying to create a seriously powerful anti daemon weapon since the Adamant would seem like it would synergize a lot better relative most 'normal' weapons that can be made for it.
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Oh we agree then, awesome. In the post I quoted you said it was better as a protective material and that you could think of very few weapons that would be seriously improved by using Adamant.

In terms of the time thing, yeah that is actually a pretty good point.
 
Is it possible to just make a Pillar of Gromril reinforced by adamant and rune it with Things that would channel Winds of magic and focus it towards cleansing the area of Chaotic corruption and kill demons also rune it with something that would ward of demons of course such a thing would be overpowered if used all the time but it can only be used ones every decade or more if used more than twice in a decade it might overflow and blow up.
kinda like area of effect but its effect range is an entire field or more.
"so is it possible?, if it is what do you need to make it?."
 
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Keeper of Dreams said:
Is it possible to just make a Pillar of Gromril reinforced by adamant and rune it with Things that would channel Winds of magic and focus it towards cleansing the area of Chaotic corruption and kill demons also rune it with something that would ward of demons of course such a thing would be overpowered if used all the time but it can only be used ones every decade or more if used more than twice in a decade it might overflow and blow up.
"so is it possible?, if it is what do you need to make it?."
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A big pillar of Pure Gromril that sinks Chaos energies?

I... hmm, I don't see why not. The Master Rune of Purification might work for that but you'd need to vent the heat that rune produces somewhere.
 
Keeper of Dreams said:
Is it possible to just make a Pillar of Gromril reinforced by adamant and rune it with Things that would channel Winds of magic and focus it towards cleansing the area of Chaotic corruption and kill demons also rune it with something that would ward of demons of course such a thing would be overpowered if used all the time but it can only be used ones every decade or more if used more than twice in a decade it might overflow and blow up.
kinda like area of effect but its effect range is an entire field or more.
"so is it possible?, if it is what do you need to make it?."
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Just a heads up, you are describing Waystones. We probably won't know how to make these until the Elves.
 
BungieONI said:
A big pillar of Pure Gromril that sinks Chaos energies?

I... hmm, I don't see why not. The Master Rune of Purification might work for that but you'd need to vent the heat that rune produces somewhere.
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Use it as a weapon
maybe make it smaller and more portable, out of either regular gromril or something less rare, engrave the runes on it, stick it a catapult, which I assume we have, and then launch it at the daemons we're gonna fight.
The runes are both gonna fuck with their chaos stuff, and basically bake them alive, since something with that much work to do is gonna emanate a fuck ton of heat
 
Speaking of numbers, I went looking, but couldn't find any hard numbers on how many bars of Adamant we'd need to do some specific things with the Gronti.

We're told that it would take 3 Bars to get the minimal enhancing effect of Adamant for a rune set in a mixed materials Ogre-Sized Gronti. How much of the Gronti that represents is unclear though.

Suppose that we made a Gronti with a solid inner skelton-like core made of Adamant as a foundation and filled out the rest with Pure Gromril.

I figure that's a kind of middle ground between "just enough for runes" and "completely Adamant"

So, @soulcake
1) How many Bars for an Ogre-Sized Gronti with an Adamant Skeleton?
2) How many Bars for a fullly Adamant Ogre-Sized Gronti?
3) How many Bars for an Adamant-enhanced rune set on a Bloodthirster-Sized Gronti?
4) How many Bars for a Bloodthirster-Sized Gronti with an Adamant Skeleton?
And just for completeness, I must ask:
5) How many Bars for a fully Adamant Bloodthirster-Sized Gronti?
 
RiyeLink said:
Just a heads up, you are describing Waystones. We probably won't know how to make these until the Elves.
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Yeah pretty much. We might be able to approximate something but Waystones in and of themselves we don't really know how to create.

Kaboomatic said:
Use it as a weapon
maybe make it smaller and more portable, out of either regular gromril or something less rare, engrave the runes on it, stick it a catapult, which I assume we have, and then launch it at the daemons we're gonna fight.
The runes are both gonna fuck with their chaos stuff, and basically bake them alive, since something with that much work to do is gonna emanate a fuck ton of heat
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Yeah, course the main issue with using it on ammunition is Voidstone being needed for the Master Rune which makes it impractical to make a good amount of ammunition inscribed with the Rune.

Using it for an axe or hammer though is totally in the cards and has been raised before as a possibility.
 
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The cloaks and the pendant were due turn 18 right? So next turn we need to put aside damn near every other shiny and pump those out. If I've got my timing right.
 
BungieONI said:
Yeah, course the main issue with using it on ammunition is Voidstone being needed for the Master Rune which makes it impractical to make a good amount of ammunition inscribed with the Rune.
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yeah, which is why I said to make it out of regular gromril/maybe even something less potent
Adamant and pure gromril make sense for a stationary, Karak protecting, object
they don't make sense for ammunition, which, by its nature, is a consumable
 
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