RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

soulcake · Apr 21, 2020

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

soulcake · Apr 24, 2020

I was just asked something so I felt the need to clarify as well.

Once adamant has taken a Rune(s), it becomes magic resistant. I realize just saying it got harder wouldn't exactly cover that. Sorry again. Will put this in the update in case people dont see.

Garlak said:
@soulcake sorry to tag you Snorri should be 730 years old as of this turn rather than 720.

There was that idea about a cold-themed weapon based around the Master Rune of Currents floating around. I think it was something like Currents, Cleaving and... something. Either Striking or Speed or Skill I forget. Or could just go with Might again; Currents + Cleaving + Might.

thank you :^)

Alratan · Apr 24, 2020

Dark as Silver said:
Wait... stop that.
He hasn't given us a T5 because he's expecting that nobody is going to use that as an ingredient.
Thats a sign of trust as using that would kill him so he doesn't think they will.

And he didn't give us that. Nor are we the representative of all dwarves. He gave that to secure a treaty and possibly and alliance with the Dwarves. If that's not a T5 I don't know what is.

Urgh the stupid thing about this whole argument is that I'm generally in favour of making something great. I just don't trust the people who are advocating it to not invest a stupid amount.

He's given something at least as rare and valuable as a T5. We are, in fact, representative of all dwarves, because we're the representative example of a dwarf runelord he's dealing with. You may not like that we're representative, but we are, simply from the position we're in.

What gets me is the incredible greed here, and the desire to basically rip off the Storm King by giving him something much less valuable in return for a T5 ingredient, heedless of what we're sacrificing for it down the line. It just seems so petty and shortsighted, particularly for someone that is a legend as the Gift Giver.

Red Bovine said:
Also don't think that it's a good idea to use only bits of Adamant on the Sky Kings armor since don't really think that would be a vast improvement since it would only use a bit and the Adamant would in my opinion be better spent in projects that would benefit more directly from Adamant.

We know that adamant enhances runes cast on it, and that three bars worth is enough for the runes on the Sky King. We can make the rest from something like T4 strom dragonhide, which we can think about ordering now, as we're probably not going to make the armour for four turns. Three bars of adamant to make an allied demigod that much more likely to survive the incursion is not a bad deal at all.

TheDuke · Apr 24, 2020

Alratan said:
We are, in fact, representative of all dwarves, because we're the representative example of a dwarf runelord he's dealing with. You may not like that we're representative, but we are, simply from the position we're in.

I'm....pretty sure the future High King, and son of Grungni, who was there at the meeting with us, would be considered the representative of all dwarfs? Maybe? Possibly?

SuperSonicSound · Apr 24, 2020

I mean we're the representative of all rune smiths at least regardless of anything else and I think being generous is far from a bad idea given who we playing as, he's not the gift giver for nothing..

Alratan · Apr 24, 2020

TheDuke said:
I'm....pretty sure the future High King, and son of Grungni, who was there at the meeting with us, would be considered the representative of all dwarfs? Maybe? Possibly?

Being representative of dwarves and how they act is not the same thing as being the representative of the dwarven state. Same world, very different meaning.

So, no, the son of Grungi is not and can not be a representative example of dwarves and how their runelords behave, because by definition he's absolutely extraordinary and so am extreme outlier.

Our Snorri is representative of dwarf runelords to the King of the Skies because he hasn't met and isn't likely to meet any other runelords for a while. We're the person that the King is dealing with for his armour, the first such deal we know of him doing, and so we're the template example for how future such actins go. Are they done in a spirit of goodwill or mutual generosity, or one of greed and avarice.

EVA-Saiyajin · Apr 24, 2020

Alratan said:
Being representative of dwarves and how they act is not the same thing as being the representative of the dwarven state. Same world, very different meaning.

So, no, the son of Grungi is not and can not be a representative example of dwarves and how their runelords behave, because by definition he's absolutely extraordinary and so am extreme outlier.

Ok, now it's starting to seem like you're twist things up to make us seem more important than we really are.

Snorri Whitebeard is absolutely more representative of the Dwarven state than us. We're not a ruler, or a noble.

Alratan · Apr 24, 2020

EVA-Saiyajin said:
Ok, now it's starting to seem like you're twist things up to make us seem more important than we really are.

Snorri Whitebeard is absolutely more representative of the Dwarven state than us. We're not a ruler, or a noble.

Re-read the post again. I never said that our Snorri was the representative of the dwarven state. I directly said he was not, and instead he was representative, from the griffins perspective, of how dwarven runelords and by extension the dwarves do deals. They have a smaple size that's pretty much one, so by definition he's representative of that population..

Dark as Silver · Apr 24, 2020

Alratan said:
He's given something at least as rare and valuable as a T5. We are, in fact, representative of all dwarves, because we're the representative example of a dwarf runelord he's dealing with. You may not like that we're reperesentaive, but we are.

I think you're trying to use representative in a different context to everyone else in the thread. When we say representative we are talking as a legal representative with responsibilities and decision making power. When you say representative you mean an example of dwarf-kind.
And not even you are arguing that Dolgi owes the KOS some sweet gear in order to smooth the alliance so I can't help but feel you are doing this deliberately.

So to go over this again:

No the KOS hasn't given the dwarves anything. Its still his heart.
The dwarves can't do anything with it, because they don't own it. And making a nice hammer or something out of it would kill KOS.
The dwarves are holding it in trust as insurance against deal breaking.
This is a case of the KOS essentially being held hostage. The fact that the method that it is being done through happens to be a very high tier reagent is irrellevant unless we're planning to kill the king and make the heart into something.

He has especially not given us anything because the person he handed it to was the future High King who was empowered to act as a legal representative.
We have no legal responsibility to this Griffin, except that once (if) we accept his commission we will do it in good faith to the best of our abilities. Given that we now know the bottle neck in creating Adamant is recharging the runes in the smelter, we can't even commit three whole turns like the original proposal to making Adamant instead we need to build additional smelter and wait for the sixteen bars to be produced over however many turns.
Given that this Griffin is unlikely to see an Adamant suit of armour within a century (Especially if we make ourselves and/or the King a suit), during the upheaval of the magic rift thingies being opened when he'd probably like it soon. There is a strong case to be made that we aren't in good faith filling his request, we're just making something extravagant for the sake of it.
Remember KOS said that he wanted one based on Ebonbeaks armour, us merely overflowing on Pure Gomril will be exceeding his expectations.

Abhishekam · Apr 24, 2020

Look it's getting confusing between the two Snorris. Short answer the heart was not for us the heart has nothing to do with the Armor commission and nothing to do with us at all except tangentially where we come under the header of all Dwarfs opinion when Grungni makes a decision on the Griffin.

So forget the heart. It was rule of cool as far as we are concerned about it or affected by it.

Binge-Reader · Apr 24, 2020

We have so much commission work to do.... Ugh

Copperscale · Apr 24, 2020

Garlak said:
@soulcake sorry to tag you Snorri should be 730 years old as of this turn rather than 720.

There was that idea about a cold-themed weapon based around the Master Rune of Currents floating around. I think it was something like Currents, Cleaving and... something. Either Striking or Speed or Skill I forget. Or could just go with Might again; Currents + Cleaving + Might.

Rune of Parrying. though given the upcoming fight... Rune of Demonslaying is also a good bet.

Alratan · Apr 24, 2020

Dark as Silver said:
I think you're trying to use representative in a different context to everyone else in the thread. When we say representative we are talking as a legal representative with responsibilities and decision making power. When you say representative you mean an example of dwarf-kind.
And not even you are arguing that Dolgi owes the KOS some sweet gear in order to smooth the alliance so I can't help but feel you are doing this deliberately.

So to go over this again:

No the KOS hasn't given the dwarves anything. Its still his heart.
The dwarves can't do anything with it, because they don't own it. And making a nice hammer or something out of it would kill KOS.
The dwarves are holding it in trust as insurance against deal breaking.
This is a case of the KOS essentially being held hostage. The fact that the method that it is being done through happens to be a very high tier reagent is irrellevant unless we're planning to kill the king and make the heart into something.

He has especially not given us anything because the person he handed it to was the future High King who was empowered to act as a legal representative.
We have no legal responsibility to this Griffin, except that once (if) we accept his commission we will do it in good faith to the best of our abilities. Given that we now know the bottle neck in creating Adamant is recharging the runes in the smelter, we can't even commit three whole turns like the original proposal to making Adamant instead we need to build additional smelter and wait for the sixteen bars to be produced over however many turns.
Given that this Griffin is unlikely to see an Adamant suit of armour within a century (Especially if we make ourselves and/or the King a suit), during the upheaval of the magic rift thingies being opened when he'd probably like it soon. There is a strong case to be made that we aren't in good faith filling his request, we're just making something extravagant for the sake of it.
Remember KOS said that he wanted one based on Ebonbeaks armour, us merely overflowing on Pure Gomril will be exceeding his expectations.

The KoS has given the dwarves a kill switch over him. That's an incredible, monumental show of trust. Particularly given how incredibly valuable the heart is as an ingredient. Such trust should be reciprocated. We shouldn't take this as an opportunity to rip him off with a third rate piece of equipment. Our Snorri is the dwarf on the ground. Remember, a runelord isn't a merchant, dickering over coppers. They combine the responsibilities of craftsman, high priest, and some of those of king. Being a runelord is a position of great responsibility amongst the dwarves, and our Snorri is the dwarf on the ground who can help prove that the King of the Skies made the right choice to take this spectacular risk.

Legal responsibilities are utterly irrelevant to th situation and the mere fact that they're being brought up is a sign that people aren't looking at this in good faith. If you're dealing with someone in good faith then it shouldn't matter what the law says, because you'll do the right thing anyway.

I don't think anyone is talking about making a sixteen bar suit of armour for him, but a composite armour with three bars of gromril, which would require saving for three turns.

Red Bovine · Apr 24, 2020

soulcake said:
Once adamant has taken a Rune(s), it becomes magic resistant. I realize just saying it got harder wouldn't exactly cover that. Sorry again. Will put this in the update in case people dont see.

@soulcake Would you mind chiming in with the whole using Adamant makes everything better bit? Because the issue I have with that is that it seems like it would make every other material inferior and have people be way less creative. What with people likely going to try to put it in literally every thing.

I suggest something like using it in runes only improves magical resistance in a lot of cases and some materials are actually better depending on what you want. Example being that using a high level material that themed around lighting would be far better to use in a hypothetical epic tier artifact whose theme is lighting while using Adamant would actually weaken it in that regards. Say something along the lines of Adamant giving a 20 percent boost while a regent from the Sky King used in a lighting rune would twice the boost. This can also apply to some things that would benefit a lot more from Adamant than other materials depending on what it was.

Suggesting this to encourage people to be more creative and work on planning instead of trying to fit Adamant into literally everything which feels like it would take away it's uniqueness.

SuperSonicSound · Apr 24, 2020

EVA-Saiyajin said:
Snorri Whitebeard is absolutely more representative of the Dwarven state than us.

Firstly rune lords are nobles in status, secondly Alratan never stated Snorri is a representative of the dwarvish state. He was talking about our position as a rune lord and we absolutely are representative of, and tbh I think it's never wrong to play towards our characters central theme which is the gift giver. Being generous is not a mistake.

Dark as Silver · Apr 24, 2020

Alratan said:
I don't think anyone is talking about making a sixteen bar suit of armour for him, but a composite armour with three bars of gromril, which would require saving for three turns.

Thats fine. Your insane troll logic asides. But I guess we come back to here:

Dark as Silver said:
Urgh the stupid thing about this whole argument is that I'm generally in favour of making something great. I just don't trust the people who are advocating it to not invest a stupid amount.

Garlak · Apr 24, 2020

The King of the Sky hasn't given Klausson anything; he gave his heart to Whitebeard, for the purpose of showing sincerity. It is not ours to use. If Whitebeard feels the King of the Sky deserves a gift or deserves something in return, or some kind of response or act or whatever, he'll give it to him.

Plus, it's just weird that you had to specify that it's Runesmiths specifically that have to do something in return and oh look Klausson is here he should be the one to do it yes of course. Like... Yeah, sure, you technically said "Dwarf Runesmith representative" in your sentence but why the heck should that matter. No, you only used that specific category to make it sound like it was incumbent upon us to act because nobody else can. It was wordplay, basically. You decided to be specific and use a category that would include Klausson by default -- and exclude Whitebeard, the guy who was in charge of the meeting and received the heart and so on -- just so you could argue that we have to do this.

Also, I don't consider "not wanting to spend 3 Adamant bars, a Storm Dragon hide, and probably a bunch of actions" to be "incredible greed" and "desire to basically rip off." Especially for an action that said "Name a favor from the Sky King, and he'll do it for you within reason; in exchange, he wants some fancy armor" to begin with. Really man?

You'd probably have more luck arguing that we should do it for free, outright, then trying to twist together out of thin air a narrative that says "Aha, we have to make him an armor; we're obligated to do so!" and trying to shame us into doing it.

This entire stream of thought and argument is absurd...

Abhishekam · Apr 24, 2020

Red Bovine said:
@soulcake Would you mind chiming in with the whole using Adamant makes everything better bit? Because the issue I have with that is that it seems like it would make every other material inferior and have people be way less creative. What with people likely going to try to put it in literally every thing.

I suggest something like using it in runes only improves magical resistance in a lot of cases and some materials are actually better depending on what you want. Example being that using a high level material that themed around lighting would be far better to use in a hypothetical epic tier artifact whose theme is lighting while using Adamant would actually weaken it in that regards. Say something along the lines of Adamant giving a 20 percent boost while a regent from the Sky King used in a lighting rune would twice the boost. This can also apply to some things that would benefit a lot more from Adamant than other materials depending on what it was.

Suggesting this to encourage people to be more creative and work on planning instead of trying to fit Adamant into literally everything which feels like it would take away it's uniqueness.

The problem there is the reagent. Weve spent like 30 something actions so far making Adamant possible. Is it that surprising if I'd rather use it as a Rune boosting reagent when beneficial rather than build a stockpile so we can make one set of Armor of the stuff every half a decade. Or one adamant golem in 2 centuries?

I say use one bar for the Banner. 3/2 split the Dowry and Banner actions next turn and then make the Armor the turn after that.

It's there, its thematic, it's taken a lot of investment and it is appropriate. It's not cheating out of being creative.

Its spending 15 turns with that as the main research action and getting more milage out of the thing apart from singular resource sinks for the metal.

Alratan · Apr 24, 2020

Garlak said:
The King of the Sky hasn't given Klausson anything; he gave his heart to Whitebeard, for the purpose of showing sincerity. It is not ours to use. If Whitebeard feels the King of the Sky deserves a gift or deserves something in return, or some kind of response or act or whatever, he'll give it to him.

Plus, it's just weird that you had to specify that it's Runesmiths specifically that have to do something in return and oh look Klausson is here he should be the one to do it yes of course. Like... Yeah, sure, you technically said "Dwarf Runesmith representative" in your sentence but why the heck should that matter. No, you only used that specific category to make it sound like it was incumbent upon us to act because nobody else can. It was wordplay, basically. You decided to be specific and use a category that would include Klausson by default -- and exclude Whitebeard, the guy who was in charge of the meeting and received the heart and so on -- just so you could argue that we have to do this.

Also, I don't consider "not wanting to spend 3 Adamant bars, a Storm Dragon hide, and probably a bunch of actions" to be "incredible greed" and "desire to basically rip off." Especially for an action that said "Name a favor from the Sky King, and he'll do it for you within reason; in exchange, he wants some fancy armor" to begin with. Really man?

You'd probably have more luck arguing that we should do it for free, outright, then trying to twist together out of thin air a narrative that says "Aha, we have to make him an armor; we're obligated to do so!" and trying to shame us into doing it.

This entire stream of thought and argument is absurd...

People were talking about wanting to get a T5 ingredient off him in return for the armour.

Abd no, I used that category because the one thing we know that he currently wants is runic equipment.

And my argument has always been that the 'good optics', the good will of a demigod to help us with things in future, are worth going above and beyond, combined with the various ancillary benefits.

I find the argument that it's narratively fitting that we make a third rate piece of equipment for a demigod absurd. This is the kind of commission that should be the pinnacle of a runelord's art, not simply a scaled up version of the kind of gear that royal bodyguards are given.

Our Snorri is the Gift Giver. Lean into our legend and make it grow and become even more glorious.

Harried · Apr 24, 2020

SuperSonicSound said:
Firstly rune lords are nobles in status, secondly Alratan never stated Snorri is a representative of the dwarvish state. He was talking about our position as a rune lord and we absolutely are representative of, and tbh I think it's never wrong to play towards our characters central theme which is the gift giver. Being generous is not a mistake.

Recently effort has been invested by some into reinterpreting our gift giving act as not actually being generous, and that it was purely a matter of pride and swearing oaths while drunk.

EVA-Saiyajin · Apr 24, 2020

Speaking of which, with the now obvious factor of the King of the Sky being beyond "oversized mutated Griffon", I feel comfortable asking for a T5 ingredient. If we can adequately state in a vote a general desire "singularly unique, exceedingly potent" or some other variant, I trust him to win. He didn't say he'd do it alone after all, worst case scenario, just that it would die.

Just need to get the current commissions and such out of the way first.

Abhishekam · Apr 24, 2020

Alratan said:
People were talking about wanting to get a T5 ingredient off him in return for the armour.

Abd no, I used that category because the one thing we know that he currently wants is runic equipment.

And my argument has always been that the 'good optics', the good will of a demigod to help us with things in future, are worth going above and beyond, combined with the various ancillary benefits.

I find the argument that it's narativekly fitting that we make a third rate piece of equipment for a demigod absurd.

They wanted the T5 to use in the Armor. Wed dump as many actions and reagents into it anyway. But Soulcake said the Griffon King could reasonably provide a T5 ingredient as payment. So people wanted to ask him for one as payment and then turnaround to use it in the armor we make for him as a Giftgiving Flex.

The main debate on it is whether to use T3 Pure Gromril for the full armor boosted with Adamant for the Runes. Or wait a century or two to make the entire armor out of Adamant. That's as for from third rate equipment as anyone could get.

Alratan · Apr 24, 2020

Abhishek M said:
They wanted the T5 to use in the Armor. Wed dump as many actions and reagents into it anyway. But Soulcake said the Griffon King could reasonably provide a T5 ingredient as payment. So people wanted to ask him for one as pay ment and then use it in the armor we make for him as Giftgiving Flex.

The main debate on it is whether to use T3 Pure Gromril for the full armor boosted with Adamant for the Runes. Or wait a century or two to make the entire armor out of Adamant. That's as for from third rate overpriced goods as anyone could get.

We don't have to wait a century. Only three bars of adamant are required to have enough adamant for the runes., with the rest of the armour being made of something else (my preference is to try to get T4 Storm Dragon armour, as we can buy that with our semi-infinite wealth, and we can afford to wait, as we have lots of other commissions to do first while it's delivered)

People don't want to use the T5 ingredient to make the armour, they want to keep to just making him regular gromril armour and keep the T5 ingredient for our personal use, from what I've seen. That's what I'm arguing against right now.

Red Bovine · Apr 24, 2020

Abhishek M said:
The problem there is the reagent. Weve spent like 30 something actions so far making Adamant possible. Is it that surprising if I'd rather use it as a Rune boosting reagent when beneficial rather than build a stockpile so we can make one set of Armor of the stuff every half a decade. Or one adamant golem in 2 centuries?

I say use one bar for the Banner. 3/2 split the Dowry and Banner actions next turn and then make the Armor the turn after that.

It's there, its thematic, it's taken a lot of investment and it is appropriate. It's not cheating out of being creative.

Using a super rare material like Adamant as a regent instead of making actual equipment out of out it does in fact feel like people are again focusing on soulless power gaming and cheesing the system to have an infinite source of mats for runes when things like pure Gromril is only used in a few runes. Stockpiling Adamant for a few turns to make epic artifacts does make sense when you take into account that Adamant is supposed to be a big deal. That said it does feel pretty ridiculous that people are now going to want to use it in everything. I mean Gromril is good but you didn't have people want to literally put it in everything and there were some things that it wouldn't make sense like with Banners.

And I do think it cheats people out of being creative since literally the moment people thought that it could be used on every single rune to for boosts you had people immediately talk about putting in everything for a boost. Which again feels like power gaming and seems like it would strongly discourage people from trying to find and gather other materials that would be more thematic to high tier artifacts.

Like making stuff out of Gromril is a tremendous boost and what people planned to use it for. It being able to be used in every single rune just feels ridiculous and excessive. Some runes it giving bigger boosts I get, but not every single one or even most.

EVA-Saiyajin · Apr 24, 2020

Honestly, the creation is what's important. So long as it's being put to use and not being used by an enemy, I don't mind if the hypothetical T5 ingredient is used for the one who got it for us. I just want to be able to do it period. The Greedy Heart already taunts me with its one of a kind-ness.

SakSak · Apr 24, 2020

I feel like quoting myself from just a few days ago:

kay, so, here is my counterpoint to poeple who are afraid the armor is not going to be impressive enough unless made of full adamantite, and that we'd otherwise be making a third rate work.
...
Reminder: We made Trollslayer with 3 overflow actions. Description of the results "New contact, Otrek Ironarm King of Kraka Drakk: +10 standing, + 150 Favour, new totals: 10 Standing, 150 favours. King Otrek will never forget the enormous debt he owes you. A weapon worthy of the greatest songs and a Kingship for his line. He does not doubt you nor the power of Runes. "
That weapon is not made of adamant. Is this what we count as third rate work or an embarrassment these days?

Our gates, which we didn't even really truly overflow?
"THEN. Then you cap it off by building your gate.
Behind the originally planned set of doors, are your babies. Meters thick slabs of granite, plated in a quarter of a meter of Gromril with Runes, the same as on your cloak but writ large, burning brightly on its surface.
In a moment of privacy one night, you stand before the gate and shed a tear.
It's beautiful. "

Yes, much disappointment.

My point and personal opinion being, as a runelord and a dwarf, focusing only and exclusively on adamant as somehow the 'only metal of worth' and everything lesser being somehow shaming or not giving our all, is ludicrous. Runelords are not just metallurgists and smiths after all. They are Runelords. Above base materials, their art and craft is Runes. And as a runelord, I would find it highly insulting if someone told me that I can't possibly make an absolutely stunning masterpiece out of whatever damn material I choose.

Seriously, anyone making the argument that "unless we use X as base material, we will be providing a third rate work" has fundamentally misunderstood what it means to be a runelord.
No, we do not need to use full adamant plates or whatever to create Epic and Legendary artefacts. We have created both without adamant, and we can continue to do so in the future.

Peoiple are seriously forgetting that adamant is a super-metal that anyone who isn't a runelord probably doesn't even know the name of, and most dwarven kings have never seen. Most runelords probably have never seen adamant, except unless worn by an Ancestor God. This stuff is a secret society level whispered secret among highly respected 500+ year old runelords.

Are we seriously at the point in our hubris, where we are declaring 99.99999% percent of dwarven runecraft to be third rate garbage simply by virtue of it not being made of adamant?
Seriously, I say again: as a runelord, I would find it highly insulting if someone told me that I can't possibly make an absolutely stunning masterpiece out of whatever damn material I choose.

RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal

Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal

Unbound