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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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All this talk about a giant Dragon-sized Gronti has conjured a most silly idea.

In the Far Future when Sigmar has saved the High King, Alric is going to start going crazy about his 12 magic swords and Snorri is going to kick down the doors and shout "Forget magic swords! Sigmar! Find me twelve Umgi with attitude!" And reveal 12 pilotable Gronti that combine into something the size of an Emperor titan.

DO NOT TEMPT THE THREAD. I can guarantee someone would try to argue this, and would probably get at least a few people on board.
It is too late for that @ThatOneGuy050! It is too late! Gronti Mechs?! WE MUST HAVE THIS! Convince some radical Engineer to try recreating Gronti through their more mundane means and animate it through Runes! THE IRON KIN MUST RISE!!!!!
 
I mean, consider that we literally voted to maximize our investment into a construction bay specially for mega-project Gronti. We're kinda settled into that being a thing we'll do again at some point. Mecha isn't that wild of another step.
 
With our future projected adamant production rates, another large adamant gronti is definitely feasible but it's definitely better to arm up the Hearthguard first. They definitely are under equipped to deal with the bs they're having to fight lately.
 
With our future projected adamant production rates, another large adamant gronti is definitely feasible but it's definitely better to arm up the Hearthguard first. They definitely are under equipped to deal with the bs they're having to fight lately.
Another large adamant gronti would be a big force multiplier for the Hearthguard. Having adamant armour would have made no real difference against the slave dragon.

And adamant is wasted on non-Master Runed gear. We're better off selling or giving it away to trained runesmiths who can make master turns who can make more productive use of it than putting regular runes on a mass scale.
 
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potential mega project, a literal walking karak, a emperor class titan kind of thing, main super structure of adamant, vital frames and components of gromril, and a karak of steel built on top, a dawi's answer to future black arks
 
With our future projected adamant production rates, another large adamant gronti is definitely feasible but it's definitely better to arm up the Hearthguard first. They definitely are under equipped to deal with the bs they're having to fight lately.
And with Mountainsoul so easy to compress now, a Banner with that's way near the top of anything we could potentially build for them.

E: We would also need to convert the rune of Ironskin from talismanic to banner as well, but that's fine. An extra ap somewhere in there.
 
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Thinking of what would help the Hearthguard:

A way to deal with Super-combatants. As seen by the fights against both the Greater Slave Wyrm and the Shagow Meargh, the Hearthguard don't really have an answer for foes of that scale or calibre. This is where something like an adamant gronti would help. Probably a dwarf shaped one with a skill transfer item to leverage the Hearthguard's own skills.

Better intelligence gathering capabilities. Particularly demonstrated against the Shadow Meargh, but also relevant against the Greater Slave Wyrn. Something like the canon Rune of Fate would be invaluable - being given visions the night before a fight of the most likely way they would die would have made the Shadow Meargh much less of a threat. As lots of what the Hearthguard have to deal with are unknown threats, this would be particularly useful. As a non-master rune it's probably something that could be deployed to the Hearthguard on mass scale as part of different trios of runes.

Something to accelerate cross-training. Probably dependent on improving Mind of Things to get an even better version of the MEoBrotherhood.

Just being harder to kill doesn't actually solve the major problem. Something that the greater Shard Wyrm or Shadow Meargh would just do such an overwhelming amount of damage that they could just kill then through it.

Edit: on the topic of being harder to kill though:

Thinking some more about the Shadow Meargh in particular, what would we need to do to equip the Hearthguard to survive it.

Simple runed adamant articulated plate armour wouldn't be enough. Prehensile and sharp shadow constructs can go through eye holes or breathing holes. We'd need sealed runic adamant (power) armour.

And then, what would that need?

1) A way to transmit senses, so something like trying to make a helmet in the form of a hollow, slightly scaled up dwarf's head, inscribing it with the Rune of Forged 'Limb' to control the pseudo-muscles in the head and a Rune that allows breathing without air, and attaching appropriate sensory organs for a pair each of Runes of Forged Eye and Runes of Forged Ear, plus a Rune of Forged Nose. We know third eyes and arms work, so this should. That's six bars of adamant.
2) A fully sealed suit of armour. That would probably require the Rune of Waking and some metal shifting rune that merged the plates of the armour into one single piece of metal when activated.

Thinking of this, are we missing a trick here. Kazagar has the option:

[ ] Write-In, Host a Special Tournament:

Can we use this to crowdsource basic design work? Can we for example; set up a tournament like this:

[ ] Write-In, Host a Special Tournament:
-[] Complete Covering: the competition is to create an item or panoply of items that forms a suit of metal armour which fully seals a dwarf inside from the outside world with no gaps, while still allowing them to fully see, hear, touch and smell the outside world (in that priority order), with a stretch goal being enhancing the dwarf inside in other ways.

We can then see how the competitors approach the challenge and what combinations of runes and items they use to try and do so. If any look particularly good, we can then use them as a foundation for our own designs.

There are some other competitions Incan see value in, to try to get younger dwarves to try to develop regular runes or combos of regular runes that are valuable but we don't have time to work on.

Basically, like the Challenges of the Burudin at a much lower level.
 
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I was originally thinking about this for armour rather than gronti, but because runed adamant is indestructible, can we make what are basically balloon animal gronti from adamant foil?

We'd need to make something like the chain forger using runed adamant rollers to make the foil and then other devices, possibly other adamant gronti to bend the foil into shape.

The same principle applies to weapons. You could make a near impossibly sharp axe or sword blade from cut/stamped out pieces of adamant foil which you then runed. The off-cuts could then be fed back into the roller. You'd need to combine this with runes that make the weight of the weapon irrelevant, but they exist.

Runed Adamant Foil armour might be the real win for the Hearthguard though. Not only would it require vastly less adamant, but if it was well made articulated plate it would combine flexibility with being incredibly light. This would mean rangers could wear it without it impacting their mobility, and more regular troops could wear it without any encumbrance at all.

This might be something we can prototype as a Difficult Request Write-In. Although a hand made version would probably take a lot of manual effort to make to make the adamant foil by hand, that would hopefully inspire Snorri to consider how to do it at scale with a device.

This could open up all sorts of interesting Monumental scale projects, like sea ship hulls or blimps or other flying vessels made from runed adamant foil. This would be an interesting area for collaboration with the elves. There are lots of very interesting engineering you can do with a material that's indestructible even in very thin sections. For the Structural applications, I'm not just talking about coating gates or walls in the stuff, but about the kinds of architecture you can make when a piece of folded foil can be used as an unbreakable incompressible strut, buttress, or pillar.
 
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Probably a dwarf shaped one with a skill transfer item to leverage the Hearthguard's own skills.
Why make it a skill transfer item when you can make pilotable gronti mecha?
I mean, consider that we literally voted to maximize our investment into a construction bay specially for mega-project Gronti. We're kinda settled into that being a thing we'll do again at some point. Mecha isn't that wild of another step.
Let's become the Ancestor God of Mecha Combat.
 
And with Mountainsoul so easy to compress now, a Banner with that's way near the top of anything we could potentially build for them.

E: We would also need to convert the rune of Ironskin from talismanic to banner as well, but that's fine. An extra ap somewhere in there.
Wait really? Nooooooo. You hate to see it. Snorri knows the rune of breathing as a weapon rune but not ironskin as a banner?

I'm going to blame Yorri for this one.
 
Why make it a skill transfer item when you can make pilotable gronti mecha?

Firstly because we don't know how to make piloted gronti, and secondly because a pilot is a weak spot to target for things that can bypass obstacles. Runed adamant is indestructible, the dwarf inside it is significantly squishier, and probably had a bigger attack surface for attacks on things like their mind, soul and life force.

Stealthy Gazul Adamant Gronti so the dwarves have their own culturally okay assassin tiered hero unit of prodigious size.

Invisibility might be a later Secrets of Light development.
 
Not even invisibility, just a giant Gronti being much more quiet than it has any right to be and leaving few traces of its passing around somehow with scaled weapons to match.
 
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Not even invisibility, just a giant Gronti being much more quiet than it has any right to be and leaving few traces of its passing around somehow with scaled weapons to match.

Arguably, if we want assassin gronti we'd be better off making our own version of knife missiles from adamant hawks with sharpened wings that are master runed blades.

Make those gronti invisible, and they'd be an absolute menace to high value targets on the battlefield.
 
Not even invisibility, just a giant Gronti being much more quiet than it has any right to be and leaving few traces of its passing around somehow with scaled weapons to match.

M. Empowered Awakening+Rune of Surprise+Rune of Hush Gronti?

M.Empowered Awakening as juiced Awakening, Hush to improve silence and general stealth capacity, and Surprise for improved Alpha Strike Capabilities?
 
Sounds about right. With a giant sword and a siege weapon tiered crossbow that'd require a full team of dwarves to operate without the Gronti to make it a dedicated anti giant monster unit to really sell the Gazul aspects.
 
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Sounds about right. With a giant sword and a siege weapon tiered crossbow that'd require a full team of dwarves to operate without the Gronti.
Admittedly I'm kind of tempted to Pull a Grunni and make it like, a big ass spider with poison dagger fangs or something, but fair's fair, I'm more into the stealth aspect than weird animal monster thing aspect
 
or just that charging rune that lets you move faster and become a unstoppable object?
we basically got a giant juggernaught, indestructible body, combine it with unstoppable momentum
 
Yeah, honestly there's a lot of good things we can put into this to make it work. There's just a lot of other stuff that takes priority so this isn't going to see the light of day unless one of the math wizards can make a good pitch to even put it on the docket.

At least we'll have plenty of time to distill a design that would be acceptable for the thread at large to even consider.

Though having tireless sneaky Ancestor Gronti that rescues Dwarven lives where needed is a pretty good aesthetic at least.
 
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I am honestly all for a sealed suit of adamant power armor, or even just non-power armor that's fully sealed with runes for dealing with environmental threats like poisons, acid, massive dust clouds. Would be great if our Hearthguard could get within a block of Snorri while he's going full steam without eating a cubic meter of dust immediately just from being near him. Not even for his protection per se, but the fact that afaik we kinda half to fight super far from anyone we care about if we wanna really go full bore is unfortunate imo.
 
I am honestly all for a sealed suit of adamant power armor, or even just non-power armor that's fully sealed with runes for dealing with environmental threats like poisons, acid, massive dust clouds. Would be great if our Hearthguard could get within a block of Snorri while he's going full steam without eating a cubic meter of dust immediately just from being near him. Not even for his protection per se, but the fact that afaik we kinda half to fight super far from anyone we care about if we wanna really go full bore is unfortunate imo.
That's what the mountainsouled banner is for. Surviving the storm is the main purpose for the banner.
 
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