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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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feature creep serves none.

the dragon is sufficient as it was designed, any changes that result in requiring more ap will do little good, one must always remember the rule of thumb for quests: for many things, saying something can be done later is synonymous with saying it won't be done.

one needs to wrangle a good few people into it afterall. and every time you delay something that doesn't have a deadline, the more opportunities to delay it appear.

remember the foolishness of old breaker.
 
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Dark Baobab said:
We could start Snorri Odd Challenges
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It would be an interesting idea to start a system of Khazagar challanges.
Sort of like the Burudin challanges, but posted to the students at Khazagar and somewhat less ambitious, promising to teach some good runes to whomever manages to solve them. Perhaps it would get some real cooperative research among the beardlings going.
Or a way to outsource some material research, with the understanding that the finding would be published in the library.

Some suggested challanges:

-- A way to see through 7 m of solid stone.
-- A way of fast and secure communication from outlying watch posts back to the hold.
-- (Present some of our Albion loot and challenge them to find its secrets.)

Edit: I have moar! Though i know not how many of these would be actual challanges and how many have know solutions. I figure it would be quite simple for any decent Runelord.

-- A gronti with decent flight capability. (Thank you @Dark Baobab
-- A rune, or set of runes, able to capture a still image and later display it.
--- A way to store and recall these images.
-- A rune able to quickly count how many discrete items are in a pile.
-- A rune to command goats.
-- A rune that allows you to breathe under water.
-- A way to record and recall sounds.
 
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elui said:
Even thought we're not that close, IMO it would make sense to postpone the equipments, because the equipments would take time to create, it's 5 equipments and at min. we would spend 3 AP for each of them so 15 in total (1 AP for part 1 + 2AP for part 2) and if we use 3 AP for part 2 it would be 20 in total so at least 4 turns of only that.

Even if we wouldn't use the T5 gromril, the knowledge we would have to create them would improve the qualities of the equipments we make due to the very nature of what we need to learn.


Lonely rune can make a combo if an object is fully in adamant.


It's likely the case but it's already precise in the post"(supposing it won't take too long to have the mat)"
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What'll improve the quality of the Dragon's equipment in a relevant way? Improving the Soul of the Earth trait and Mind for Constructs trait. And those are going to get improved by actually building the Body and finishing up Movement of Things: The Soul (which will get into the Master Rune of Awakening and the animating intelligence itself). You may think your idea is sensible, but it is not. Working on akazit is not tied to either of those two traits, so any improvement is going to be not significant.

People are already straining against the deadlines this dragon imposes. Delaying it for Akazit till the point we can make Glimril is a marginal benefit (if any) for significant timeloss, assuming we don't use Glimril in the Dragon. And it is impractical to attempt to do so because the stuff is not going to be easy to manufacture.

And if you just want part 2 done, congrats its getting done automatically due to Windsight, so this entire conversation is kinda irrelevant.
 
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elui said:
Lonely rune can make a combo if an object is fully in adamant.

It's likely the case but it's already precise in the post"(supposing it won't take too long to have the mat)"
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Erm.. half right, Adamant allows 2 runes. Two rune combo's can exist however they are extremely rare. It could take us a lot of attempts to make that combo so it really is delaying it by a significant amount of time, especially considering the rule of pride means we only get two practice attempts.

And the problem with it being precise in the post is that we cannot know it won't take too long until we've already delayed stuff and its a very unsure assumption. I don't think I can accept that as an assumption.
Supposing the moon is made of cheese, how large a spaceship would I need to make to setup a profitable cheese mine?
 
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ShiningBright said:
Also Zon-Dum can't be inscribed on adamant, otherwise we would try to combo it with Siphoning
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Yes but also no. I think you've mixed some things up.
Zon Dum requires a gemstone in its construction that prevents it from being fully Adamant in construction. (And by extension being able to hold a lonely rune +1)
There is nothing preventing it being inscribed on an Adamant item as a single rune as long as that gem is there.
Soulcake has WoG speculated that if we can find of create a gemstone with similar properties to Adamant that we ought to be able to use that and maintain the effectively pure adamant construction.

For the purposes of the wider conversation you're correct, and I should have remembered that rather than getting sidetracked about technicalities. It would require us to add researching this new material into the todo list.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Yes but also no. I think you've mixed some things up.
Zon Dum requires a gemstone in its construction that prevents it from being fully Adamant in construction. (And by extension being able to hold a lonely rune +1)
There is nothing preventing it being inscribed on an Adamant item as a single rune as long as that gem is there.
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This is a very minor quibble but I know what I said, and the wording is "must be inscribed on" not "must be inscribed on an item with"
Master Rune of Zon-Dum said:
It must be inscribed on a Gemstone set into a piece of armour. After a brief charging period, the gemstone unleashes a beam of extreme heat powerful enough to melt Pure Gromril after a few seconds of exposure. The beam's duration is inversely related to its strength.
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We originally got the armor version, which is why it is worded that way, don't mind it
 
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BungieONI said:
What'll improve the quality of the Dragon's equipment in a relevant way? Improving the Soul of the Earth trait and Mind for Constructs trait. And those are going to get improved by actually building the Body and finishing up Movement of Things: The Soul (which will get into the Master Rune of Awakening and the animating intelligence itself). You may think your idea is sensible, but it is not. Working on akazit is not tied to either of those two traits, so any improvement is going to be not significant.
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But finish building the body is obvious ? we won't create equipment for something that don't exist...
Working on Akazit is not tied to these two traits but it's tied to master of the odd like Extra sensory and Monolith Mastery which I hope you concur are tied to how Rune work.

BungieONI said:
People are already straining against the deadlines this dragon imposes. Delaying it for Akazit till the point we can make Glimril is a marginal benefit (if any) for significant timeloss, assuming we don't use Glimril in the Dragon. And it is impractical to attempt to do so because the stuff is not going to be easy to manufacture.
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Assuming we don't use Glimril for dragon equipments (not the dragon itself) we would still have a better understanding of how rune work because we'll create a T5 Gromril that break the rule of three.

BungieONI said:
And if you just want part 2 done, congrats its getting done automatically due to Windsight, so this entire conversation is kinda irrelevant.
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I don't understand what you're talking about. I was talking about the time for create equipments.
 
I am mildly sympathetic to the idea that researching Akazit or whatever may substantively improve Skaudardrengi but not enough to risk it taking even longer.
 
ShiningBright said:
This is a very minor quibble but I know what I said, and the wording is "must be inscribed on" not "must be inscribed on an item with"

We originally got the armor version, which is why it is worded that way, don't mind it
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I think we're talking about slightly different things?
I'm talking about getting the mechanical buff for Adamant making runes better. And you're talking about the literal narrative description of the item?
 
elui said:
But finish building the body is obvious ? we won't create equipment for something that don't exist...
Working on Akazit is not tied to these two traits but it's tied to master of the odd like Extra sensory and Monolith Mastery which I hope you concur are tied to how Rune work.


Assuming we don't use Glimril for dragon equipments (not the dragon itself) we would still have a better understanding of how rune work because we'll create a T5 Gromril that break the rule of three.


I don't understand what you're talking about. I was talking about the time for create equipments.
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My point is that the benefits from finishing the body (Improved Soul of the Earth and Mind for Constructs) heavily outweigh the potential benefits from Akazit since they are concretely related directly to Skaudardrengi and its equipment. They are also both traits which either specify improvement of quality or strongly imply it.

I concur about Master of the Odd. Master of the Odd is also a trait about insight into rune research, making Snorri faster and better at understanding Odd concepts as well as generating unusual runes others wouldn't create. And it does not specify or imply any kind of quality increase.

Yeah, we'll know more about how runes work after Akazit, regardless of Master of The Odd. But to be as clear as possible, I don't think the insights Akazit will provide: How to prepare Adamant for Essence infusion, how Glimril might break the rule of three, and what runesmith essence is, are worth the time and opportunity cost of postponing any equipment till we learn those things.

Postponing means not using Skaudardrengi in the Fimir War - immediate no. Your idea fails on this step. Why does it mean not using the Dragon? Because it won't have finished wings. It will look unfinished without the wings, and will be a dragon clearly meant to fly that is unable to fly, which is all embarrassing and easily avoidable. Beyond me many other people want to use it in the war so your idea has little support.

You talked about the time for creating equipments here:
elui said:
Even thought we're not that close, IMO it would make sense to postpone the equipments, because the equipments would take time to create, it's 5 equipments and at min. we would spend 3 AP for each of them so 15 in total (1 AP for part 1 + 2AP for part 2) and if we use 3 AP for part 2 it would be 20 in total so at least 4 turns of only that.
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You laid out your timeline, and I misread it. Frankly due to how you've written it I am having a hard time understanding what you mean.

What I thought you said was "we can do all five pieces of equipment and Akazit Part 2" in four turns, which is why I responded the way I did - because Akazit Part 2 is being done automatically.
 
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BungieONI said:
Postponing means not using Skaudardrengi in the Fimir War - immediate no. Your idea fails on this step. Why does it mean not using the Dragon? Because it won't have finished wings. It will look unfinished without the wings, and will be a dragon clearly meant to fly that is unable to fly, which is all embarrassing and easily avoidable. Beyond me many other people want to use it in the war so your idea has little support.
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I tought Skaudardrengi was for defence because it's Khazagar capstone.
 
elui said:
I tought Skaudardrengi was for defence because it's Khazagar capstone.
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It is for multiple things. One design goal is defense of Khazagar, but another design goal is being able to use it in war, and most of the people talking about Skaud very much like the idea of destroying Fimir Cities with it.

We have also realized that we'd be able to use it as a way to transport Snorri around the Karaz Ankor, but that's a lesser priority compared to the other two, and wasn't a capability we intentionally designed into it. Just happenstance.
 
There's like 3 places you can feature creep skaud that won't take forever and are reasonable arguments. Compress deep gate and use that rune for the heart, compress relentless pursuit and use that instead of the combo, and wait on the runed claws until the sword research is done since that's probably the last part of Skaud that'll be made.

My new featurecreep idea is to understand and simplify ZonDum (2ap, we'd get armor and talisman variants), and make a combo with ZonDum/forgeflame/siphoning, compress that and stick it on Skaud. Mostly as an experiment to see if we can simplify it down and keep the power level by removing any and all safety features since the rune is 90% safeties, 10% actual lazer, and then crank it back up as a stronger master/lonely rune without the gem requirement by again ignoring any and all safety requirements.
 
More like Work of Massive Distraction. I just want it done so we can chase other things rather than having this albatross weighing down our AP. Maybe less hearth guard would have died if we had spared a bit more time to their training?
 
LaggPlaguedDuke said:
There's like 3 places you can feature creep skaud that won't take forever and are reasonable arguments. Compress deep gate and use that rune for the heart, compress relentless pursuit and use that instead of the combo, and wait on the runed claws until the sword research is done since that's probably the last part of Skaud that'll be made.

My new featurecreep idea is to understand and simplify ZonDum (2ap, we'd get armor and talisman variants), and make a combo with ZonDum/forgeflame/siphoning, compress that and stick it on Skaud. Mostly as an experiment to see if we can simplify it down and keep the power level by removing any and all safety features since the rune is 90% safeties, 10% actual lazer, and then crank it back up as a stronger master/lonely rune without the gem requirement by again ignoring any and all safety requirements.
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We can replace the gear after we make it given how much Adamant we'll be making, and frankly the only one of those I can see is Deep Gate solely because of how god damn absurd Deep Gate is. Otherwise, let's get this big project I've been hyped forever for going.

Though I do like the idea of prodding the sword for the sake of more Metal XP given how once we creep through exactly enough Azakit to get to the next stage of Rune Metal, well. That's what I'll be pushing for.

Dragon very good. We should do a lot more long term projects like this. Considering the next one might be the Mountainsoul Banner post-panoply.
 
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