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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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To be frank, when Snorri builds it with KKR, methinks that'll give it some benefits too. And I know that Snorri's own efforts and KKR are going to matter more than the differences in design because traits like Productivity and items apply in the building. This dragon is fundamentally about achieving a specific design goal - Karstah can achieve that goal on the design portion.

If some folks don't trust her capabilities to design a suitable Capstone, then unfortunately there's probably not much I can do to convince ya. You got the same info I do.
 
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Snorri will do a much better job (based on his traits alone) and I think the Dragon Golem that is going to be the the Capstone of Khazagar I think is quite important for Snorri to design it

I think you are right but also... do we really care that much about the dragon. Personally I'd rather put Snori's AP towards doing actions only he can take like the research. The dragon is at the end of the day a vanity project. So what if it will be 10% less killy than it could have been?


There is also the fact of heirship to consider. What message does it tell Karstah, and the Karaz Ankor as a whole, that we trust her enough to put the finishing touch, the "final", line of defense in what is ostensibly our legacy? We can always add stuff to it or redo it if we really want to. But Karstah knows what we know about how the Gronti Animation runes and Prosthesis runes connect and their underlying principles so she's got this.
 
Sorry if I missed it but is there any disadvantage to Snorri and Karstah both designing dragon together other than not being able to use actions for something else? Otherwise, I think it could be a nice further bonding moment alongside drak rearing.
 
Sorry, but that sounds like grasping straws...
The Runes of Prosthesis, and before them, Gronti runes work better if the person understands the underlying mechanics of movement. AKA Karstah, who is more familiar than Snorri with Dragon physiology would be able to create a more realistic/efficient/powerful Drakk Gronti.

Edit: She also has Thungi's Gronti from the trail to look to as the par excellence.
 
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[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about reactions to you running off with Karaz-Kazak-Rhun [Extensive, Evolving]
[X] [Social:] Brynna covertly attends a competition in Khazagar.
[X] [Social:] Fjolla showing her new smelter.
[X] Plan: The Dragon Kaiju Begins and Checking in on Draco Grandkids
 
The Runes of Prosthesis, and before them, Gronti runes work better if the person understands the underlying mechanics of movement. AKA Karstah, who is more familiar than Snorri with Dragon physiology would be able to create a more realistic/efficient/powerful Drakk Gronti.

It's just basic motor system anatomy though, you either know it or you don't. There is no need for a years long study of the subject
 
This, this sounds much better. And it would be good father-daughter moment for them.
One thing that hasn't been discussed since I don't think anyone else has brought up, but she can help us build it. And while it wasn't going to be relevant till at least turn 60, its become relevant now, since I am planning on committing all of her actions and Snorri's actions on actually building the Dragon when the time comes.

Like this: Dragon 6 Snorri + 4 Karstah type thing. Feels right. Its a teaching-learning moment and reinforces the idea we trust her.

And She Suggests It, She Designs It, She Helps Build It has a nice throughline and narrative arc of responsibility for her.
 
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And it would be good father-daughter moment for them.

Ngl I would be fine with taking things just a little bit slow, letting father-duo spend more time together and gather their thought. Something like two both Snorri Karstah actions to drak rearing and designing mega-dragon. A third action for Snorri to look into hammer. Tho honestly I'm not sure what to do with rest of the actions.

I would love to create a plan on this line of thought but I can't, I can only count up to three :(
 
Ok, here is the version of the two main plans with Snorri and Kartash designing the Gronti together

Edit: Apparently these plans are not valid...

[X] Plan: The Dragon Kaiju Begins (Together) and Checking in on Draco Grandkids
-[X] Snorri & Karstah
--[X] The Enduring War Rune 1 Snorri + 1 Karstah + 1 Retainer. Already covered, this is for action tracking purposes.
--[X] [Difficult] Extra-sensory Pt. 1 2 Snorri
--[X] [Simple] Slave Wyrm Autopsy 1 Simple
--[X] [Simple] The Secrets of Light Pt. 2 Simple
--[X] Drakk Rearing 1 Snorri + 1 Karstah
--[X] [Difficult] Design Skaudardrengi, The Singing Slayer, Emperor Dragon Gronti: An exemplary 45 meter Storm Wyrm forged from pure Adamant, with eyes of glowing Dronril shielded by metallic lids. Rest linked in this post.
---[X] Choose: Master Rune of Awakening (T4 Greedy Troll Heart) + Empowerment (T4 Dragon Ogre Shaggoth Heart) + Engineering Siphoning (T4 Greedy Troll Heart). 1 Karstah + 1 Snorri
--[X] [Difficult] Build Azrilzhufgotten, The Silver River Banner: 1 Karstah
--[X] [Difficult] Starlight: Due end of Turn 59.
---[X] Accept
-[X] Retainers & Orders
--[X] Expedition, Aiding Krum 1 Retainer + 1 Industry of the North
--[X] Expedition, Aiding Kraka Drakk 1 Retainer
--[X] Princely Hunting: T4 Radiant Pegasus
--[X] Royal Authority, Additional Order: T4 Barazgal 15 Kraka Grom Favor
--[X] Royal Authority, Additional Order: T4 Voidstone 15 Kraka Krum Favor

[X] Plan: Fires of Inspiration, Hammer and Drakks (Together Version)
-[X] Snorri & Karstah
--[X] Accept Starlight
--[X] Drakk Rearing [1 Heir]
--[X] [Difficult] Design Skaudardrengi, The Singing Slayer, Emperor Dragon Gronti [1 Heir]
---[X] An exemplary Storm Wyrm forged from pure Adamant, with eyes of glowing Dronril shielded by metallic lids. It is as large as the largest and oldest Wyrms at forty five meters from nose to tail and its scales shine with power. The story of Kraka Drakk and it's inhabitants is inscribed onto its wings in panoramic mural and gemstones. This artwork and its immense might are meant to be a tribute to the Hold that Snorri has lived in for almost half a millennia, to mark Khazagar as a legacy for Kraka Drakk. Thus its power is meant to defeat the greatest members of the Dumi. It is cleverly designed such that it weighs far less than expected for its size and offsets some of its significant ground pressure. Furthermore, its Horns, Wings, front left Claw, and three special chest scales for Armor runes, are all designed to have runes of their own in the future. A mechanism in its mouth will hold the item that creates its Breath Weapon. Finally, a cleverly concealed Adamant screw-plug longer than two dwarfs are tall is in its chest, held in place by a perfect fit and massive internal locking bars and mechanisms which are unlocked by secret commands given to the Gronti - and behind this plug in the core of its body lies its Heart Chamber. The animating Runes of the Gronti are inscribed into the walls of this Heart Chamber, while a slot for the future Heart itself lies empty. [Uses 192 Bars of Adamant. The theme of this: "A metal behemoth of the Storm Above and the Deep Below. Cladding itself in the Storm within, its thunder and might fueled by the endless vigor of the Deep."]
---[X] Choose: Master Rune of Awakening [T4 Greedy Troll Heart], Rune of Empowerment [T4 Dragon Ogre Shaggoth Heart], Rune of Siphoning (Engineering) [T4 Greedy Troll Heart].
--[X] [Simple] Flamedrinking Talismans Pt. 2 [1 Heir] + 1 AP
---[X] Combo, Flamedrinking: Rune of Thungni's Presence, Rune of Thungni, Rune of Forgeflame
--[X] Examine Karaz-Kazak-Rhun [1 AP]
--[X] [Simple] Slave Wyrm Autopsy [1 Research]
--[X] [Simple] The Secrets of Light Pt. 2 [2 Research]
--[X] [Difficult] Extrasensory Perception Pt. 1 [2 AP]
-[X] Retainers & Orders
--[X] Expedition, Aiding Krum [1 Retainer + Industry of the North]
--[X] Expedition, Aiding Kraka Drakk [1 Retainer]
--[X] Order: Elder Stonehorn's Horns
--[X] Queenly Authority Order: Barazgal [-15 Kraka Grom Favor]
 
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I think we need to learn to balance some stuff. Basically railing up Snorri's radicalism. We don't need to rush out to get our research done. We have a lot of shit to autopsy which I think already sat for few centuries. I won't mind if we cut some stuff back and actually get some things cleared from our vaults. We had chimera corpse for a long time and only few turns ago we actually fucking did an autopsy. There is of course the marching, we should create some Gronti to support the war especially with new insights and stuff we can use.
 
Fumbling with voting
[X] [Social:] Dreng on the mend
[X] [Social:] Brynna covertly attends a competition in Khazagar.
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about reactions to you running off with Karaz-Kazak-Rhun [Extensive, Evolving]
[X] March [Cost: 1 action] Gain possible loot, bonus to roll against Fimir. No actual interlude but combat rolls will still be made. The idiots decide they want to tear open a hole in reality do they? You razed three cities already, and you're not one to leave a job half finished
[X] Examine Karaz-Kazak-Rhun: [Cost: minimum 1 action] Gain semi random research and trait progress. By the hammer of Thungni, you now hold the hammer of Thungni! It is folly to believe you can ever truly understand it at your current level of skill. But there is still inspiration to be found, and maybe you also just want to admire something so beautiful as this hammer. Who's to stop you? You're its owner.
 
[X] Plan: The Dragon Kaiju Begins (Together) and Checking in on Draco Grandkids
[X] Plan: Fires of Inspiration, Hammer and Drakks (Together Version)

[X] [Social:] Dreng on the mend
[X] [Social:] Brynna covertly attends a competition in Khazagar.
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about reactions to you running off with Karaz-Kazak-Rhun [Extensive, Evolving]

The trails showed what we strong at and what we lack. We saw how Snorri treated Karstah and how he would treat his possible daughter if his wife lived. We are strong, but I think our foundations are mot the strongest, especially with Snorri's self-doubts. I can only imagine that many elderly Dwarfs feel like that but not show that to beardlings.
 
[X] Plan: Refining Our Eyes and the Dragon Kaiju Begins

[X] [Social:] Brynna covertly attends a competition in Khazagar.
[X] [Social:] Fjolla showing her new smelter.
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about reactions to you running off with Karaz-Kazak-Rhun [Extensive, Evolving]
 
[X] [Social:] Brynna covertly attends a competition in Khazagar.
[X] [Social:] Dwalin, shopping for reagents in the Grozurbaz with his son.

[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about reactions to you running off with Karaz-Kazak-Rhun [Extensive, Evolving]

[X] Plan: The Dragon Kaiju Begins (Together) and Checking in on Draco Grandkids
 
Ok, here is the version of the two main plans with Snorri and Kartash designing the Gronti together

[X] Plan: The Dragon Kaiju Begins (Together) and Checking in on Draco Grandkids
-[X] Snorri & Karstah
--[X] The Enduring War Rune 1 Snorri + 1 Karstah + 1 Retainer. Already covered, this is for action tracking purposes.
--[X] [Difficult] Extra-sensory Pt. 1 2 Snorri
--[X] [Simple] Slave Wyrm Autopsy 1 Simple
--[X] [Simple] The Secrets of Light Pt. 2 Simple
--[X] Drakk Rearing 1 Snorri + 1 Karstah
--[X] [Difficult] Design Skaudardrengi, The Singing Slayer, Emperor Dragon Gronti: An exemplary 45 meter Storm Wyrm forged from pure Adamant, with eyes of glowing Dronril shielded by metallic lids. Rest linked in this post.
---[X] Choose: Master Rune of Awakening (T4 Greedy Troll Heart) + Empowerment (T4 Dragon Ogre Shaggoth Heart) + Engineering Siphoning (T4 Greedy Troll Heart). 1 Karstah + 1 Snorri
--[X] [Difficult] Build Azrilzhufgotten, The Silver River Banner: 1 Karstah
--[X] [Difficult] Starlight: Due end of Turn 59.
---[X] Accept
-[X] Retainers & Orders
--[X] Expedition, Aiding Krum 1 Retainer + 1 Industry of the North
--[X] Expedition, Aiding Kraka Drakk 1 Retainer
--[X] Princely Hunting: T4 Radiant Pegasus
--[X] Royal Authority, Additional Order: T4 Barazgal 15 Kraka Grom Favor
--[X] Royal Authority, Additional Order: T4 Voidstone 15 Kraka Krum Favor

[X] Plan: Fires of Inspiration, Hammer and Drakks (Together Version)
-[X] Snorri & Karstah
--[X] Accept Starlight
--[X] Drakk Rearing [1 Heir]
--[X] [Difficult] Design Skaudardrengi, The Singing Slayer, Emperor Dragon Gronti [1 Heir]
---[X] An exemplary Storm Wyrm forged from pure Adamant, with eyes of glowing Dronril shielded by metallic lids. It is as large as the largest and oldest Wyrms at forty five meters from nose to tail and its scales shine with power. The story of Kraka Drakk and it's inhabitants is inscribed onto its wings in panoramic mural and gemstones. This artwork and its immense might are meant to be a tribute to the Hold that Snorri has lived in for almost half a millennia, to mark Khazagar as a legacy for Kraka Drakk. Thus its power is meant to defeat the greatest members of the Dumi. It is cleverly designed such that it weighs far less than expected for its size and offsets some of its significant ground pressure. Furthermore, its Horns, Wings, front left Claw, and three special chest scales for Armor runes, are all designed to have runes of their own in the future. A mechanism in its mouth will hold the item that creates its Breath Weapon. Finally, a cleverly concealed Adamant screw-plug longer than two dwarfs are tall is in its chest, held in place by a perfect fit and massive internal locking bars and mechanisms which are unlocked by secret commands given to the Gronti - and behind this plug in the core of its body lies its Heart Chamber. The animating Runes of the Gronti are inscribed into the walls of this Heart Chamber, while a slot for the future Heart itself lies empty. [Uses 192 Bars of Adamant. The theme of this: "A metal behemoth of the Storm Above and the Deep Below. Cladding itself in the Storm within, its thunder and might fueled by the endless vigor of the Deep."]
---[X] Choose: Master Rune of Awakening [T4 Greedy Troll Heart], Rune of Empowerment [T4 Dragon Ogre Shaggoth Heart], Rune of Siphoning (Engineering) [T4 Greedy Troll Heart].
--[X] [Simple] Flamedrinking Talismans Pt. 2 [1 Heir] + 1 AP
---[X] Combo, Flamedrinking: Rune of Thungni's Presence, Rune of Thungni, Rune of Forgeflame
--[X] Examine Karaz-Kazak-Rhun [1 AP]
--[X] [Simple] Slave Wyrm Autopsy [1 Research]
--[X] [Simple] The Secrets of Light Pt. 2 [2 Research]
--[X] [Difficult] Extrasensory Perception Pt. 1 [2 AP]
-[X] Retainers & Orders
--[X] Expedition, Aiding Krum [1 Retainer + Industry of the North]
--[X] Expedition, Aiding Kraka Drakk [1 Retainer]
--[X] Order: Elder Stonehorn's Horns
--[X] Queenly Authority Order: Barazgal [-15 Kraka Grom Favor]
your Fires of Inspiration variation put the Snorri AP on flame drinking, not the dragon.
 
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@Fanhunter696, not sure if you know this but that Convert Siphoning to Engineering is actually critical to designing the dragon at all.

Neither of these plans is valid mechanically.

Also Lagg just pointed something out to me on discord. @Gabriel_TFA we actually can't design things together. Design actions can only take one ap, anything else goes into building the item.
 
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I wonder if brynna is any good at disguise.

Snorri has a prosthetic eye, scars, and a silver streak in his beard.
Brynna has 2 prosthetic eyes, tattoos and a black streak among otherwise white hair.

Not exactly discrete figures.

Although it could be a sort of rite of passage thing for drakk. Snorri regularly goes around in disguise, so maybe it's becoming a thing.

Nin nin!
 
I wonder if brynna is any good at disguise.

Snorri has a prosthetic eye, scars, and a silver streak in his beard.
Brynna has 2 prosthetic eyes, tattoos and a black streak among otherwise white hair.

Not exactly discrete figures.

Although it could be a sort of rite of passage thing for drakk. Snorri regularly goes around in disguise, so maybe it's becoming a thing.

Nin nin!
everyone is constantly paranoid cause everyone is wearing hoods and anyone of them could be a rune lord or a rune smith or a rune apprentice or just a regular dwarf or even the king himself or maybe even 3 branas stacked together!
 
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about reactions to you running off with Karaz-Kazak-Rhun [Extensive, Evolving]
[X] [Social:] Brynna covertly attends a competition in Khazagar.
[X] [Social:] Fjolla showing her new smelter.
[X] Plan: Fires of Inspiration, Hammer and Drakks
 
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[X] [Social:] Brynna covertly attends a competition in Khazagar.
[X] [Social:] Dwalin, shopping for reagents in the Grozurbaz with his son.
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about reactions to you running off with Karaz-Kazak-Rhun [Extensive, Evolving]
 
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