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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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[X] [Stone:] Right
Hearthguard combat capability is straight up a rune problem not a skill issue. The Huskarls, rangers, and subspecialty warriors like Valkyrie Guard are either better than Snorri as a combatant or close to it despite being centuries younger because that's their job. Remember Drong's combat stats matched Snorri's by dint of just being that good (and old). The brotherhood banner is designed to spread that skill to all of them and tbh it'll benefit Snorri himself as well to gain some of the Huskarl's skill in a fight.

Lethality is also a rune problem. Give them MWorld that Was and the MWandering banner and even elites like that dragon riders are going to get dogpiled instantly while hero units like the Meargh will get tarpitted. They can add their combat bonus to Snorri like the Dirach choir does for the Mearghs and could very well have made the difference with Ulgu Meargh.

We already know that bodyguards will straight up help even supercombatants in this system, arguing they don't is blind foolishness. We've seen it directly, granted, eroded down by our ash storm, but you know what also erodes hostile bodyguard units?

A bunch of very old dwarves in runed gromril hitting them with axes.

Ancestors, people, we even got a whole scene in the Slaanesh Meargh's fortress of them and Vragni's Apprentices being the most elite non-hero units that the Dawi can field. They're not a pack of bumbling beardlings.
WHile I do agree with the benefits you've provided, I disagree on the value it has compared to just upgrading Snorri. In part because the HG is relatively squishy due to lack of Super Regen and because our main consideration is action economy as we've actively designed the HG to provide and cover for areas that we don't handle.

Like @Cecylene said we use our HG a lot in areas around us without actively following us into combat so we can achieve multiple objectives at the same time. It's unlikely in that use case that a AOE buff around us is effective .

But let's assume that we want our HG to fight alongside us and we don't get LEFT so we need to research and recreate the effect ourselves. How many and which projects do we sacrifice to enable that ability? Do we sacrifice a few turns of our Space and Repair research, or our super Killy Axe, or .....

Additionally for our HG to reliably fight alongside us, they need to be able to keep up with our new doctrine of Airdrop Snorri. Which is another action sink.

THat is not to say it is without merit, but the HG is competing fiercely against other things like Force Multiplying Snorri or recreating/improving anti daemon runes.
 
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WHile I do agree with the benefits you've provided, I disagree on the value it has compared to just upgrading Snorri. In part because the HG is relatively squishy due to lack of Super Regen and because our main consideration is action economy as we've actively designed the HG to provide and cover for areas that we don't handle.

Like @Cecylene said we use our HG a lot in areas around us without actively following us into combat so we can achieve multiple objectives at the same time. It's unlikely in that use case that a AOE buff around us is effective .

But let's assume that we want our HG to fight alongside us and we don't get LEFT so we need to research and recreate the effect ourselves. How many and which projects do we sacrifice to enable that ability? Do we sacrifice a few turns of our Space and Repair research, or our super Killy Axe, or .....

Additionally for our HG to reliably fight alongside us, they need to be able to keep up with our new doctrine of Airdrop Snorri. Which is another action sink.

THat is not to say it is without merit, but the HG is competing fiercely against other things like Force Multiplying Snorri or recreating/improving anti daemon runes.
So the Hearthguard being squishy is a direct result of us not putting very much effort into them being not-squishy. Like, my point is that using "they are squishy" as justification to not build something that would make them not squishy is feeding into the same logic that got us here in the first place.

And, stepping aside from the "fight with Snorri" idea entirely for a moment, we don't actually want them to be squishy for another pretty significant reason. Missions are getting harder, which means they are more likely to die. And they are going to keep getting harder. The war (any war really) is also going to impact them, regardless of if they fight with Snorri in the storm or not.

And we don't need Left to fix this.

To fix this for the Hearthguard takes some compression, conversion, and building one item - that item also lets them survive in the storm by using a combo involving Banner Mountainsoul. That was tbh, the main design goal, and because of the regeneration and durability involved it also fixes this squishiness issue.

Going back to the fight with Snorri thing, do I want them to fight with him after we build a storm-survival banner? No. But that is also a solvable problem.

And the convenient thing is that we don't have to distract Snorri because we can just use Karstah. My plan next turn for example has us building the Azrilzhufgotten Banner we just designed very recently using Karstah, and that'll be a very nice boost for the Hearthguard.

They also do not need to keep up with Airdrop Snorri, because like other people have mentioned there's other things for them to do where upgrades will help them significantly, or for moments in a field battle where airdropping him is not viable. Or we decide to take other options of Snorri deployment and here's the thing - we've done it a few times, but its not an actual doctrine that we will use Every Time.
 
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So the Hearthguard being squishy is a direct result of us not putting very much effort into them being not-squishy. Like, my point is that using "they are squishy" as justification to not build something that would make them not squishy is feeding into the same logic that got us here in the first place.

And, stepping aside from the "fight with Snorri" idea entirely for a moment, we don't actually want them to be squishy for another pretty significant reason. Missions are getting harder, which means they are more likely to die. And they are going to keep getting harder. The war (any war really) is also going to impact them, regardless of if they fight with Snorri in the storm or not.

And we don't need Left to fix this.

To fix this for the Hearthguard takes some compression, conversion, and building one item - that item also lets them survive in the storm by using a combo involving Banner Mountainsoul. That was tbh, the main design goal, and because of the regeneration and durability involved it also fixes this squishiness issue.

Going back to the fight with Snorri thing, do I want them to fight with him after we build a storm-survival banner? No. But that is also a solvable problem.

And the convenient thing is that we don't have to distract Snorri because we can just use Karstah. My plan next turn for example has us building the Azrilzhufgotten Banner we just designed very recently using Karstah, and that'll be a very nice boost for the Hearthguard.

They also do not need to keep up with Airdrop Snorri, because like other people have mentioned there's other things for them to do where upgrades will help them significantly, or for moments in a field battle where airdropping him is not viable. Or we decide to take other options of Snorri deployment and here's the thing - we've done it a few times, but its not an actual doctrine that we will use Every Time.
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I think I missed something . Isn't the point of comparison using the LEFT STONE rune to make our HG Tough and relative to that enhanced durability everything else is squishy.
 
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I think I missed something . Isn't the point of comparison using the LEFT STONE rune to make our HG Tough and relative to that enhanced durability everything else is squishy.
Ahhhh, no, I'm not making that point of comparison. I'm responding to what I interpreted your logic to be, which is a logic I've seen repeated multiple times in every instance where the Hearthguard's equipment gets brought up as a topic.

We have other methods (that don't require being nearby of Snorri) in the pipeline that Karstah can help with (and thus not interfering with existing plans) was the point being made I think?
That's definitely part of the point being made. Another part was just that Left Stone isn't necessary even if its Really Really Good.
 
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Ahhhh, no, I'm not making that point of comparison. I'm responding to what I interpreted your logic to be, which is a logic I've seen repeated multiple times in every instance where the Hearthguard's equipment gets brought up as a topic.
Fair enough. To be clear I do think that upgrading our HG to keep them relevant is important.

What I disagree with is dedicating our limited opportunities for super runeworks to the HG so they can become a core part of our personal combat. Largely as their versatility in handling optional objectives is fantastic and doesn't require using up our limited action economy.

That said I do support dedicating super runeworks to make our HG more useful , it's just that if Combat is the only criteria I think there's more qualitative advantage in improving Snorri.
 
Fair enough. To be clear I do think that upgrading our HG to keep them relevant is important.

What I disagree with is dedicating our limited opportunities for super runeworks to the HG so they can become a core part of our personal combat. Largely as their versatility in handling optional objectives is fantastic and doesn't require using up our limited action economy.

That said I do support dedicating super runeworks to make our HG more useful , it's just that if Combat is the only criteria I think there's more qualitative advantage in improving Snorri.
Yeah - and too be clear when the banners were considered, a lot more than combat was had in mind for the people coming up with them. The Storm-Survival banner, because it has durability increase and super regen, for example is useful to the civilians a Hearthguard deployment might be assisting. Or in assisting the Hearthguard in getting somewhere extremely hazardous such as an unstable mineshaft filling up with toxic gas from horrible gribblies or a punctured gas pocket. Basically any job that is "Survive in an extremely hazardous environment/where powerful Regen and durability is required"

My point thus is that I think we can get them up to assisting in personal combat while also working on the mission profile we usually send them on.

And if combat is just the only criteria, I agree with you, upgrading Snorri probably has more advantage.
 
Hmm, odd musing: Of the Ancestors and their known children, only Snorri and Morgrim are widely used names. The other six are not used elsewhere.
I wonder why.

Huge shoes to fill, probably.
But why not also Snorri and Morgrim? Maybe they were common names before the ancestors rise, and remained so, while the others were less common, and so no one uses them?
 
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Hmm, odd musing: Of the Ancestors and their known children, only Snorri and Morgrim are widely used names. The other six are not used elsewhere.
I wonder why.

Huge shoes to fill, probably.
But why not also Snorri and Morgrim? Maybe they were common names before the ancestors rise, and remained so, while the others were less common, and so no one uses them?
Could very well be the Huge Shoes to fill.

I personally believe the reason for "Thungi" not being more used among runesmiths is because they are all from the same family/clan and hence they probably started as a normal, small family were they strive to only have one of each name so no confusion can take place and then time continued and folk started dying so names started to get reused, but never Thungi's because he never died.
 
You do not trust them.

Not our traditions. Not our people. Not your colleagues. Not your family. Not even
yourself.

Why should you? They all failed when you needed them most.

So you grasp, blindly, desperately, to ensure what befell you does not happen to anyone else.

You will smother them all to satisfy yourself.

It will damn the Guild, it will damn the Karaz Ankor, when the day comes that you push too far everything shatters in your hands. And I want to tell it to you plainly, because either you don't know, or more concerningly, you do and you do not
care.

You know these are not the words of Alric Thungnisson, that the Rune uses him only as a mouthpiece for another's thoughts and fears. No, these are not his…

"But mine," you murmur, finally taking control of the illusion fully as you fold the letter up and put it to the side.

I can sort of understand where this is coming from, but it feels weak to me.

To live is to enforce your will upon the world and the people around you. Someone wants to grow food, they sow the fields. They raise cattle. Same for a warrior, those training to fight to unleash violence to shield and destroy.

I see no reason why this should be a cause for self doubt, unless Snorri is just so closeminded he's not ever been aware of any impetus behind his own actions, or if the Rune is somehow twisting some deep unconscious thoughts to the fore and making him give them inappropriate weight.
 
So the Hearthguard being squishy is a direct result of us not putting very much effort into them being not-squishy. Like, my point is that using "they are squishy" as justification to not build something that would make them not squishy is feeding into the same logic that got us here in the first place.

I think the issue is less that the Hearthguard are squishy, although they are, it's that even if they're less squishy they still don't have the damage output to be more than a very temporary obstacle in the face of the kind of foes Snorri faces.

And upgrading their lethality to be able to throw down with the kind of foes that Snorri would need assistance against is likely to be a massive investment, meaning Master Runes each, which is just infeasible.

I also have say I'm a bit sceptical that a banner can grant a hundred dwarves protection equal to armour bearing a Master Rune containing combo.
 
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