On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
If its been more than 20 turns since an action was invested in a tree, that branch is removed and forever lost.
Fear of missing out will get us diversifying.
And if that still isn't enough, then clearly we just didn't care.
If its been more than 20 turns since an action was invested in a tree, that branch is removed and forever lost.
Fear of missing out will get us diversifying.
And if that still isn't enough, then clearly we just didn't care.
Nah. Just because the majority doesn't care right now, it doesn't mean that they never will.
And it seems bad to punish the players who are interested in those researches, but are not getting what they want due to being in the minority, by further removing their pet research tree.
It won't make the minority voters more engaged. It just puts a cost to not getting what they want, which would make people (understandably) salty.
If its been more than 20 turns since an action was invested in a tree, that branch is removed and forever lost.
Fear of missing out will get us diversifying.
And if that still isn't enough, then clearly we just didn't care.
I can not tell if this is a joke or not and that is 100% on me. I started writing a response and its kinda gotten bigger than i expected.
I don't know about other people but I do care about the research trees. It just has been really hard to find the spare actions to invest into researching them while working towards things we have been working on for multiple turns. I would love to be researching Happening of things and Secrets of light but to me i see that the thread is more the interest with research trees we have already invested (Movement of things) or stuff that super groundbreaking (ESP). There is also the idea that a rewards we get from researching stuff like that is going to more powerful than something from part 2 of a research tree.
With a system like that I don't feel like we would be getting people gracefully accepting that we can let a whole research path disappear. Instead I feel like we would have to start juggling all the research and investing 1 action every so often making sure they don't disappear. Would this also be applied to some research that is locked. I don't like the idea of removing a ton of content and runes that Soul might already in their notes because i am genuinely interested in what they have prepared.
One of the ideas I would like to see is that some research changes from [Difficult] to [Simple] and we gain more research actions to use on [Simple] research. I feel like [Simple] research has only been Autopsies which are only done really done with the hopes of getting free research progress or materials. The research action we get ever turn is always dedicated to autopsies because that is all we have and i would like that to change. I liked the idea of research that is [Difficult] being something that is an actual challenge to a Runelord our age while [Simple] research being something that not a real challenge but still going to take time.
As i mentioned previously I feel like the idea of a reward we can get from part 6 or 7 of a research tree is going to be more impactful than part 1 or 2. The choice to change the the early parts of a research tree to be [Simple] i feel like it would really help people getting invested in specific research and get futher along while unlocking new runes and lore. This would allow us to diversify alot of low level research and see if anything intrreasting pops up that might peak the threads intreast without having to fight over Snorri general ap. I would also like to see the convert regular rune action become [Simple] because it takes alot to convice the thread to spead Snorri ap on a regular rune unless you have a plan that its critical to do so.
Hopefully this would be ballanced out with futher into the research tree it would change to [Difficult] which would force use to research something else making sure we diversify.
Some of the research I would like to see become [Simple] would be stuff like:
Convert a Regular Rune
The Secrets of Storage Pt. 2
The Secrets of Light Pt. 2
The Fixing of Things Pt. 2
Diction Direction Pt. 2
huh I wrote alot more than I expected. hope people enjoy my thoughts on the subject.
Nah. Just because the majority doesn't care right now, it doesn't mean that they never will.
And it seems bad to punish the players who are interested in those researches, but are not getting what they want due to being in the minority, by further removing their pet research tree.
It won't make the minority voters more engaged. It just puts a cost to not getting what they want, which would make people (understandably) salty.
*shrug*
Forever's a long time, sure eventually we might get to it. But we keep getting more tech trees that tend to push low priority research even further down the backlog.
The actual cost of this change seems pretty marginal.
I wouldn't suggest it if it didn't seem like soulcake was fully intending to follow durin's philosophy
But since he is I'm not sure that theres going to be a end to a lot of the tech trees. When movement of things was introduced, I don't think anyone thought that it was going to be a waystone tech.
Even if things aren't removed forever, and secrets of light get added back in when understanding sub atomic particle behaviour becomes a prerequisite for Fixing of things pt 6 and Rune Metal pt 12.
As far as minority voters not being engaged, I think you're misdiagnosing the issue.
I think people don't disengage or become unable to engage because they can't get support for their niche issue, they do it because the vote tally becomes too large for them to parse. Or because plans become reduced to several plans that are the same thing but with slight minor changes.
I can not tell if this is a joke or not and that is 100% on me. I started writing a response and its kinda gotten bigger than i expected.
I don't know about other people but I do care about the research trees. It just has been really hard to find the spare actions to invest into researching them while working towards things we have been working on for multiple turns. I would love to be researching Happening of things and Secrets of light but to me i see that the thread is more the interest with research trees we have already invested (Movement of things) or stuff that super groundbreaking (ESP). There is also the idea that a rewards we get from researching stuff like that is going to more powerful than something from part 2 of a research tree.
With a system like that I don't feel like we would be getting people gracefully accepting that we can let a whole research path disappear. Instead I feel like we would have to start juggling all the research and investing 1 action every so often making sure they don't disappear. Would this also be applied to some research that is locked. I don't like the idea of removing a ton of content and runes that Soul might already in their notes because i am genuinely interested in what they have prepared.
One of the ideas I would like to see is that some research changes from [Difficult] to [Simple] and we gain more research actions to use on [Simple] research. I feel like [Simple] research has only been Autopsies which are only done really done with the hopes of getting free research progress or materials. The research action we get ever turn is always dedicated to autopsies because that is all we have and i would like that to change. I liked the idea of research that is [Difficult] being something that is an actual challenge to a Runelord our age while [Simple] research being something that not a real challenge but still going to take time.
As i mentioned previously I feel like the idea of a reward we can get from part 6 or 7 of a research tree is going to be more impactful than part 1 or 2. The choice to change the the early parts of a research tree to be [Simple] i feel like it would really help people getting invested in specific research and get futher along while unlocking new runes and lore. This would allow us to diversify alot of low level research and see if anything intrreasting pops up that might peak the threads intreast without having to fight over Snorri general ap. I would also like to see the convert regular rune action become [Simple] because it takes alot to convice the thread to spead Snorri ap on a regular rune unless you have a plan that its critical to do so.
Hopefully this would be ballanced out with futher into the research tree it would change to [Difficult] which would force use to research something else making sure we diversify.
Some of the research I would like to see become [Simple] would be stuff like:
Convert a Regular Rune
The Secrets of Storage Pt. 2
The Secrets of Light Pt. 2
The Fixing of Things Pt. 2
Diction Direction Pt. 2
huh I wrote alot more than I expected. hope people enjoy my thoughts on the subject.
It's 50/50 a joke.
I'm putting it out there as something to consider, and actually challenge if we are getting a better quest/story from having something like 42 research actions to chose from.
Even if you were to say, "Yeah actually we should prune the number of votes available." I don't see what I actually suggested as a polished well thought out solution to the problem, for reasons you listed mostly. I agree we'd probably see people dripping 1 action at a time, but 1 action at a time will eventually get things to break points where its action efficient to just finish it in one go. And also people don't really like breaking up large action groups because of the free actions. So to some degree forcing people to actually invest in these to say that they want them.
And if we can't manage that in things we're genuinely interested in over the period of 1/3rd of the quest, then I'd say that we're actually highlighting an issue that the tree has gotten too large and its no longer actually practical that we can research anything.
So in the spirit of data collection and information parity, there's been a lot of discussion in the Discord about problems/pain points with the current research system.
I can't collate everything said, but in general it seems that most of the people on Discord can agree that:
A. Research cost inflation is a problem that's been creeping up for a few years now.
B. Smaller research trees and [Simple] Research is being left by the wayside in favour of the bigger, more important trees and actions. Made worse by Problem A, and general AP constriction.
C. Planning cycle burn out + lack of engagement.
D. The rate I update exacerbating all of the above.
If anyone has critiques or thoughts they want to throw out there Im open to the feedback. A few things to keep in mind though:
A. Turns are staying 10 years.
B. Speeding through tech trees is not what I want.
C. Complication is the enemy of fun for me as the writer to bookkeep. I'm flexible but it should still interact with the other systems.
There's already been a few ideas.
- reducing overall action cost, but compensating in by increasing the number of stages in a tree and/or having narrative locks like whats there for Rune Metal 7. So other research, needing traits at a certain level, stuff like that. So you'd get stuff done quicker, but theres more down time between starting stages, with the idea it evens out in terms of pacing with what I had before so that you don't speedrun to endgame research.
- Parallel research sorta thing. Investing actions into [Difficult] Research adding occasional progress to [Simple] research as one way. Having [Simple] research have a base amount of progress spread across all of the options per turn was another.
- Some of the [Difficult] research being turned into [Simple] until they pass a certain stage down the tree. So like Pt.1 to 3 are [Simple] but Pt. 4 Onwards would be [Difficult]
Anyway, that's in the backburner and I'm actively looking at this when I get pooped by writing. :^)
For me, the big problem when it comes to making plans is the customization of rune creation part of the vote, and needing to use all the action points, but partly using them on the retainers, and the heir.
The artifact creation part though is the main killer for me willing to put in plans. As it feels like every turn has to have a artifact rune sequence studied, or this specific extra thing from that extra page needs to be included on this plan turn. Plans are complex in this quest.
I'd like to go back to simpler times, where the players only had rune research as a avenue of action point spnding, but then the playerbase and quest got bogged down by matrial research, and monofocusing on one priority without exploring other research routes. A new threat every turn.... Gotta keep focusing on the main priority right? Which is... gromril improvements? Or is it unlocking seeing magic? Or was it getting better equipment? No the main priority must have been building a Academy, right?
Edit: I think some of the research point investment required should be chopped down a little for rune research, as Snorri is really old and even if he had chosen to monofocus, a normal peer should have less action points than him to invest in rune research. Which would make other rune masters only able to maybe get to level 4 depth of a rune after a thousand years? I didn't do the math, but it feels like runemasters need more time than a natural dwarf lifespan to do anything impressive.
[ ] [Difficult] Trollslayer Pt. 1: Thane Ironarm has come to you with a simple request. An axe worthy of commemorating the momentous victory at the Dragon's Maw. He trusts you to make an axe worthy of the prospective title Trollslayer and is willing to wait for the product for however long it takes. After all, how can he not have faith in you after everything that's happened? First, you have to figure out what runes you want on this damn thing. [Cost: 1 action] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
- [ ] Choose: pick three runes you want on the weapon.
- [ ] Theme: write in a theme for the weapon. (I will roll to see if you find a new combo)
- [ ] GM: Leave it to the GM. (I will roll to see if you find a new combo) If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. If I am given the choice you won't have to worry about that. A good rule of thumb on if it will likely need ingredients is if it's a Master Rune or it's a rune you've developed and know it will need ingredients you don't have. Pt 2. will cost 1 more action + whatever ingredients, if any, you need FYI.
This was the first difficult request I think.
There were always non research stuff though, and most of the early game was that stuff rather than research.
You have (5 - 1) = 4 actions this turn:
General:
[ ] Find a new Workshop: Now that you're original site is the scene of a rather large Gromril find, you'll have to find a new place to set up shop. At least the funds you'll be receiving from the future Gromril mine helps ease the pain. [Cost: 1 action]
[ ] Odd Places 1/10: Look on Master Yorri's map and try and discover one of his marked locations. The locations will certainly be odd, but whether they'll be useful remains to be seen. [Cost: 1 action] Roll for usefulness.
[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 12 turns.
Requests:
[ ] [Simple]Rush Job: The discovery of a large seam of Gromril has left you with a surplus of requests to equip the miners of the hold with the proper gear to get at that motherlode as quickly as possible. [Cost: 2 actions]Productivity Like No Other will proc.
[ ] [Simple]Rune. Those. Halls!: A goodly amount of the future main hall has been excavated and are in desperate need of a good runic...eh be-rune-ing? It needs runes alright? [Cost: 4 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
Research: Your career and your honour demand you hone your craft, and it's usually done through poking at runes and seeing what works.
[ ] The Secrets of Light?: That moment with the shield and sunray, the light of your torch glinting off the crystal, both sparked something in your mind. An ember that refused to be burned out. You've done permutations to the standard Rune of Light and a few on Master Yorri's Rune of Reflection, but maybe there could be more?[Cost: (8-2)=6 Actions] Student of the Odd will proc
[ ] The Movement of things: The Rune of Waking or Animation as some would call it is a rare rune. How Master Yorri knows both the regular and Master Rune could be explained by either a harrowing adventure full of terror, beasties and treasure or by something as mundane as asking a friend, you could never be sure with the man. Still, this was a rune that, to your frustration, you haven't had much chance to tinker with. Maybe just a peak? [Cost: 8 actions] Student of the Odd will proc.
[-] The Rune Metal: The miners say all the Gromril's as pure as anything they've ever seen, purer even, but no word of brilliant silver or pure white streaks. Coming back to the cave days later to see for yourself and you can't say they're lying either. But yet… but yet you can't, almost refuse to get the image out of your head. Maybe it's nothing, but maybe it may not be. [Cost: ???-1 Actions] Student of the Odd will proc. Locked due to lack of a proper workshop.
This was the first difficult request I think.
There were always non research stuff though, and most of the early game was that stuff rather than research.
Equipment creation was available as a option, but it wasn't always used. I think there was a point requirement that locked it out, so it wasn't mandatory unless a comission was accepted. The early turns are a bit of a blur. Then everything got more complex by the latest turn. There's the rune sequence research, needing to go to the tables, and find what's what. Not just choosing the action investment for the turn. Doesn't help that I'm confusing things, so it makes things even harder to understand.
If you timed yourself to make a plan, would it take ten minutes, or three hours if you knew nothing?
I'd like to go back to simpler times, where the players only had rune research as a avenue of action point spnding, but then the playerbase and quest got bogged down by matrial research, and monofocusing on one priority without exploring other research routes. A new threat every turn.... Gotta keep focusing on the main priority right? Which is... gromril improvements? Or is it unlocking seeing magic? Or was it getting better equipment? No the main priority must have been building a Academy, right?
That's the thing. People are monofocusing so hard that they're blitzing the tech tree almost too quickly.
And short of some emergency popping up, like taking a massive loss from the Fimir, the majority will just vote for the most optimal way to get the most progress on one specific branch of the tech tree.
The minority who wants to do the other trees consistently gets outvoted so hard that they don't bother with making a plan. There are a bunch of tech trees we haven't even touched, and only got progress via incidental drip from other trees.
Happening of Things, Weight of Things, Secrets of Light and Secrets of Storage are all struggling along because they aren't as shiny as Windsight, Waystones and Movement.
And they also have to compete with understanding M.Thungni, which is a massive chonker, and the more recent Mysterious Mystery Sword/Barrel/Cauldron (which probably will dripp into Alchemy... which is another unfavored child).
Oh and the giga-dragon and all it's equipment, yet another self inflicted AP sink.
Equipment creation was available as a option, but it wasn't always used. I think there was a point requirement that locked it out, so it wasn't mandatory unless a comission was accepted. The early turns are a bit of a blur. Then everything got more complex by the latest turn. There's the rune sequence research, needing to go to the tables, and find what's what. Not just choosing the action investment for the turn. Doesn't help that I'm confusing things, so it makes things even harder to understand.
If you timed yourself to make a plan, would it take ten minutes, or three hours if you knew nothing?
[X] Plan: This far and no farther, was a little further back.
-[X] MARCH 1 Snorri 1 Karstah
-[X] [Difficult] Staffing Pt. 1: [Cost: 1 action] Due whenever. If a Rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional reagent materials here.
--[X] Accept. Use Azrilzhufgotten's write in for this. 1 Karstah
-[X] [Difficult] Staffing Pt. 2: [Cost: 1 action] Due whenever. If a Rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional reagent materials here.
--[X] Accept. Use Azrilzhufgotten's write in for this. 2 Karstah
-[X] [Difficult] Write In Pt. 1: [Cost: 1 action] The War Wagon: It is uncomfortable to admit, however this war has not gone as it should have. From an ambush on the supply train that marked the opening battle, to surface dwellers infiltrating the Underway in a way that the great incursion only managed through taken Karaks. The ideal dwarf war is fought from behind the walls and fortifications of a Karak, following that it is fought sieging someone elses fortifications. If the Fimir insist on denying you this, then you've got an idea for how to take the walls where they're needed. 1 Snorri
--[X] For the Hearthguard
--[X] Use BA, Zharrgal and reagents as Snorri considers best.
--[X] Khazad Strollan Khazak -The Hall walks to war.
---[X] Runes: Battle - Cascading Bolts - Charge Breaker
---[X] A mighty fortified wagon capable of forming a hard point in battle, a place to retreat in an ambush, a storehouse to provision a campaign and carry back trophies of victory, able to stall an enemy advancing in the underway simply because trying to walk past it will result in a constant hail of bolts from the inside. A somewhat mixed occurrence to dwarven sensibilities, on one hand anything new is a object of suspicion to dwarves. However it enables them to fight their preferred battles from fortifications even while on attack, and its sides are decorated with famous battles that might have been tragic last stands however were turned into victories by dwarven tenacity and Quallerrer volleys. Undeniably good qualities. On the third hand however, those wheels look a little strange, some concession had to be made to the weight of the cart and that it will be campaigning in some muddy terrains, and testing showed that this was the best way to spread the load.
--[X] Hunkar Hruki - Hauling Goat
---[X] Runes: MWaking - Might - Loadbearing
---[X] Although the wagon, could be dragged by a sufficiently large herd of goats, that is an ungainly solution and somewhat vulnerable to arrows. This Gronti addresses those failings. This massive statue is the second largest pure adamant construction you're aware of after the building that bears a no longer lonely rune. The wagon itself being disqualified due to the Wutroth involved in its construction. Its tabarding and the reins that allow it to draw the wagon are made of gromril chain and rope woven from the golden wool of goats already won from the Fmir.
--[X] Dammar Dronha - Avenging grudges with thunder.
---[X] Runes: MLightning Strikes - Chain Lightning - Echoblow
---[X] Your retainers being unable to stand alongside you in the ashstorm is a constant irritation for them, and although not a solution this is hopefully some balm. While the Reckoner and the Retaliator were meant to kill targets with a single well placed shot, the winds of the Ashstorm make it a near impossible shot even for the master engineers of the Hearthguard, instead the projectiles of this bolt thrower will act as conduits for the sheer power of the storms lightning. And if it misses by a few lengths, well eitherway the arcing lightning or the thunderclap will hit the target anyway. It is decorated with Donril and sapphires depicting great Brana falling on the various enemies, the Fimir feature prominently, and each of the Brana of the Hearthguard appear somewhere. Intended to be mounted atop the wagon, however it can be removed and deployed as a normal bolt thrower can.
-[X] [Difficult] Write In Pt. 2: [Cost: 1 action] The War Wagon: Over the course of this war although you . 3 Snorri + Grudge
-[X] Retainers & Orders
--[X] Expedition, Aiding Ravnsvake 2 Retainer
--[X] Expedition, Aiding Dorden 1 Retainer
--[X] Training Regime Pt. 2: [Cost: 2 retainer actions] Gain "Hearthwarden Warrior" Training Standard and Category, some existing classes will be absorbed into the new category. The last phase of Rudil's training program involves creating a unified set of skills that would be expected of a "Hearthwarden Warrior." Incorporating skills and traits in the same way that the Rangers had done. 15 Drakk Favor, 45 Ornsmotek Favor, 30 Krum Favor, 15 Grom Favor
--[X] Drakk Expertise [Cost: +1 retainer action and 15 Kraka Drakk Favour] Hearth Guard will retain High+ Attack, increase Attack if taken with Ornsmotek Expertise. Every Hearth Guard is a deadly fighter, but the talents and knowledge of Dawi chosen to be a Huskarl is another matter. Spreading that knowledge would invariably be of benefit.
--[X] Ornsmotek Expertise [Cost: +1 retainer action and 45 Kraka Ornsmotek Favour] Hearth Guard will retain High+ Attack, increase Attack if taken with Drakk Expertise. The second most powerful Throng, arguably the most embattled Hold in the Far North, their combat ability is a grudging peer of your Hold's.
--[X] Krum Expertise [Cost: +1 retainer action and 30 Kraka Krum Favour] Hearth Guard will retain Spelunking, will retain Spelunking ++ if taken with Grom Expertise. Few others delve deeper than the miners of Krum, fewer still survive as well as they do.
--[X] Grom Expertise [Cost: +1 retainer action and 15 Kraka Grom Favour] Hearth Guard will retain Spelunking, will retain Spelunking ++ if taken with Krum Expertise. Centuries of living in a Hold occupied by traitors, without outside resupply and limited food, knowledge earned in sorrow and passed down even still, too useful to forget out of grief.
--[X] Order: T4 Ancient Greedy Troll Heart
And if you specifically told me, I'm not allowed to update plans, then I'd
Go back to this post where I suggested a bunch of other war machine designs.
Err, so I said it felt like there were a lot of fun concept areas here and I'd like to offer what I came up with after a couple hours of brainstorming to put my money where my mouth is and to see if its a starting place for others.
These are mostly concepts and I'm not settled on runes in all places, which is what is happening if I offer a 4 rune combo.
There are a couple of concepts I wasn't able to get working sufficiently in my head to post them, a dictation weapon that uses Brana spotters to target itself and a command center type one that would give other seige engines buffs against the target. Still thinking about one for the Burudin challenge as I don't think we were certain if that was looking for rapid fire or incredible reliability. E: Alright I've got burudin choices depending for either interpretation however they do suffer from a lack of choice of relevant runes.
Grudge Throwers
MLightning Strikes - Chain Lightning - Echoblow
So the first design is one of two concepts I came up with to exploit the Ash storm and allow fire support for Snorri at a distance. Very similar logic to that we used in BA except theres also a lot of Lightning in the area anyway. Theres not a huge amount to it, its designed to be a very pure and direct Lightning but better combo. Echoblow is used to represent the Thunder after lightning, with Chain Lightning synergies. Chain Lightning itself joins onto MLightning Strikes very simply having an obvious elemental relationship and synergising by adding a AOE effect onto MLightnings high destructive power.
Breakshot - Flaying - Wracking Pain
So I mentioned war crime devices earlier? This ones intended to play off of our engineer of note, who keeps creating troll gut bombs. This provides a delivery mechanism thats better than just throwing them and uses the combo effect to amplify the AOE and increase the damage the acid can do.
If theres a downside here, its that the obvious runes I'd like to use for this combo or chemical weapons in general are often locked behind being unknown or future status. Which is why it doesn't use a MRune, I did consider MPurification for the liquid effect but it seemed like a strech...
MPurification - Rune of Burning - SpellEating
I'm not entirely certain this effect will work as I expect. The intention is that basically flings Napalm over things that are magic and it doesn't stop burning until they stop being magic.
The intention is to use SpellEating to turn MPurifications "burns ambient magic" into more of a targeted version against the enemy.
Bolt Throwers
MEagle-Eyed - Gales - Shearing Winds
The other concept to use the Ashstorm in our favour, because if theres one thing I know about storms it that they're windy.
This uses an offensive interpretation of gales, going from blowing enemy projectiles off course to winds blowing ours onto course. Following that theres a natural synergy with Shearing Winds adding cutting wind damage. And it uses Eagle Eyed to see through the storm to pick out targets perfectly.
My concern here, Gales on Engineering might remain a defensive rune that blows missile attacks away from the bolt thrower.
MRangerstrike - Featherweight - Kneecapping / Gazul
This design traces its roots back to the discussion about if we can exploit MRangerstrikes reactivation condition by moving it. And its as much in the design as the combo, its a unusually small Bolt thrower designed to be packed up and moved by a small team at very short notice. Rangerstrike and Featherweight are kinda just required by the concept which doesn't give a lot of flexibility in the combo choice. Kneecapping was considered over other accuracy/weakspot targeting effects due to its more brutal nature sounding like it would more synergise with an ambush based combo, however Gazul also seems like a good choice due to Gazul having relations to Ranger runes as well as ____-Killing runes making it a broadly safe choice.
Unlike most other designs this exploits the multi disciplinary nature of the Hearthguard by being something that can exploit Ranger tactics, anytime a Monster Warden or Raven Cloaked has wanted more firepower to kill a Thundertusk, this is the answer.
Battle / Cascading Bolts / Eagles - Charge Breaker
This is almost more of a banner masquerading as a war engine. While technically it is a Bolt Thrower, a War wagon - Wikipedia would be a better mental image. I'm looking at a couple of ideas here, first is that it actually feels kinda surprising that dwarves don't already have some way of brining fortifications to the battlefield, second is to make sure that when the Fmir try their ambushes or to attack the supply train, we have some preparation and a defensive hard point to give the supporting troops more time to hold out before reinforcements come.
Which is why Charge Breaker is the only rune I've settled on here, to dissuade attacks. Following that logic, I think battle would be my least favourite of the other choice runes as I prefer the imagery of a charge being broken by a near solid volley of crossbow bolts in response. While Grimnir is rarely a bad choice for this sort of thing, I passed over it because it feels like a offensively slanted rune for a defensively slanted combo.
Look I love Old Grumbler but the spatial compression tech isn't here yet and doesn't seem like it will be for a while. Consider this a precursor.
Preservation - thungni/smednir/repair
Stone/Repair - Morgrim - Smednir
Okay, lets call this my concept for Algrim's Challenge. When it talks about two years,
I am taking that to mean the duration is more important than the rate its shooting. This is a bit of an issue because we don't have great options for "Less item damage" and the whole "average Crossbow" is doing a lot of work as a runed crossbow isn't average by definition. So he might actually be looking for a banner that applies that effect to other regular crossbows? So this is very much a step towards the right direction rather than anything that would satisfy the challenge.
Preservation is one of the few runes we have that explicitly improves the armours durability rather than the user. Unless we're going to understand MSteel, which isn't a bad idea for this challenge, but has very low utility for other projects.
Thungi and Smednir both have themes of perfect flawless creations that last a long time and synergise nicely, in weapons however they seem to tend towards break effects as in Zhargall therefore we're looking to the third rune of the combo to keep them focused on not allowing the bolt thrower to fail, either Preservation or Repair.
Hopefully repair or a successor will fix hairline damage before its finished. However I don't know that I'd pick it at the cost of breaking up the Thungni/Smednir pair.
E: thanks to Bungie for the suggestions and improvements. The difference between the two new options are whether we want to wait for a non deadend rune to add self repair in a secondary compression (Compressed this - Better Repair - Forging). Or adding repair now and looking to make possibly smaller, but direct steps to the goal rather than attempting to implement single features at once with each compression.
Morgrim represents a more appropriate Ancestor god for both the requirements and an engineering combo than Thungni so thats why that swap happened. Preservation was changed to Stone, because Preservations effects are rather variable between forms so it was considered more reliable.
MLightningStrikes - Reloading - Fury
This started as a rapid fire design, but without converting MCurrents we don't really have a rapid fire MRune to use. On the other hand being able to leverage the extreme firepower of Lightning Strikes is a very pragmatic choice for a slower firing but more devastating combo isn't a bad choice.
Reloading and Fury are the default choices for rate of fire. Ferocity could potentially work but that feels like a third rate choice.
Battering Rams
Look at that I started with talking about engineering combos and now I'm talking weapon combos I think I might need @soulcake to clarify here as it feels to me that Rule of Form for the Battering Ram, the entire thing including cover for people swinging it would fall under Engineering however the Battering Ram, specifically only the swingy bit would be a Weapon form. Let me know if this is correct.
I don't think Rams are as traditional seige weapons as Grudge and Bolt Throwers, but I think that's mostly because they don't naturally fit within the scope of the Warhammer tabletop game as they aren't typically practical on the open battlefield, rather than because dwarves never thought about it. However I do think they have a use even if we only rarely use them against the Fimr just because adding the strategic choice that we can just walk up to their walls and knock them over forces them to plan for more things and can cut short their chance to attrition us.
Weapon Ideas
MSmiting - Striking - Echoblow
Designed to use the incredible forces of the earth, channelled through the natural weaknesses of the earth, with aftershocks continuing after the hammer has been drawn back to strike again. This is intended to replicate an earthquake, here, now and in the enemy walls. It feels like the sort of thing a subterranean species would think of when they think what ruins buildings.
MBreaking/MSmiting - Ram - Heft
Okay so, Ram isn't just a great pun, this is intended to create an unstoppable force that breaks anything in its path and see if anyone thinks they have an immovable object. Depending on our specific requirements we can use MSmiting if we want unstoppable force and MBreaking if we want anything in its path. Personally I feel Breaking is better if we want to lean into the thematics of a battering ram and Smiting is better if we want to lean into the newtonian mechanics of the equation.
Heft and Ram synergise by both increasing the momentum, Ram does it directly and Heft does it by changing the rams mass.
Engineering Ideas
MWaking - Might - Load Bearing
Okay so the plan with Might and Waking here is obvious, big Gronti uses big ram to big effect. Load bearing I added to extend the uses of this outside of battles to help it use its strength to turn it into a part of the supply train able to drag wagons like a beast of burden, lift and support other wagons that have broken axels or lost wheels, ect, ect.
MWaking/Grungni/River Banks - Gildercoat
The idea here is about finding ways to ensure the ram arrives at the wall while providing cover and defenses to dwarves under it/ following it. Gildercoat is obvious and an easy choice, Grungni and River banks both offer defence against ranged attacks and our choices really are do we want a traditional Ram with both of them, or do we want a Gronti Ram with only one.
E: I'd apologise for the double post but I don't think it counts after 3 hours. Instead I'll apologise for the length, lemme spoiler that.
Old Grumbler Yes, it's not that old. Yes, it doesn't actually grumble. But you go look that vicious thing in the eye and tell IT that's not it's name!
Our Hearth Guard Engineers are a talented lot, but they lack a platform to show off their stuff. Let's give them one.
So, the Mammoth Gronti I'm envisioning here is not primarily meant as a combat unit (although it's a mammoth, it'll do the job). Instead, it's meant to be a supply hauler and rescuee transport for the Hearth Guard. The wonderful thing about a Mammoth's body shape is that it allows us to add huge amounts of utility to the gronti that a bipedal gronti simply wouldn't have. But to talk about that, we'll need some dimenstions.
The largest reported mammoths in earth history were 14 feet tall at the shoulder. (Steppe mammoth - Wikipedia) A Steppe mammoth's rib cage is approximately 2 meters top to bottom (6.5ft) and 2.5 meters long (8.2ft) A mammoth's rib cage's width is approximately 3/10ths of its height ('Woolly Mammoth Skeleton' by Ben Houston - 3D Model), so roughly 4.2 feet wide.
A human body is generally 7 ½ heads tall, and the head and torso are 4 heads combined – making a person sitting on the floor ~53% of their height. Call it 55% to account for stockier dwarves. Shoulder width is two heads wide, or ~29% of their height(Drawing the Proportions of the Human Body) Dwarfs are usually no more than 4 feet tall (RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest) Fantasy) Therefore, a sitting dwarf could fit in a space 2.3 feet high, on an area of floor 1.15 feet square.
Given that we're building this gronti, we can size it up slightly to allow for convenient interior dimensions. Let's make it 16ft tall at the shoulder, with a torso 7.5 ft high, 9.5 ft long, and 5ft wide.
This would allow us to fit three decks of dwarf seating inside the torso, four dwarfs across and 8 dwarfs deep, for a total of 96 dwarfs safely transported inside the gronti.
Assuming dwarf casualties instead of able-bodied passengers (who would thus be lying down), we could add in a further three temporary decks, which could house a minimum of 8 casualties per deck for 48 stable casualties.
And of course you could mix and match deck sizes as necessary, and those decks could also be used to store cargo instead.
Our Steppe Mammoth's head would be 5 feet high, 3 feet long and 2.5 feet wide – big enough for a pilot and copilot.
It's lower legs could be used to store caches of crossbow bolts; its upper legs, Bolt Hurler bolts.
To provide access to these decks, three separate doors will open on the Mammoths flank, hinging downward like a truck's tailgate. Each gate will be hinged at the height of a different deck, and will feature an extending ladder to make up any remaining difference to the ground.
The mammoth's trunk will be longer than normal to assist in loading and unloading itself. Its tail will feature a spiked mace head at the tip for added defence.
As for runes, beyond the necessary Master Rune of Awakening, I'm opting for two straightforward runes increasing functionality.
The Rune of Might will allow the Gronti to both carry massive amounts of cargo on its person, but also drag trains of Qamutiks and sleighs, even further increasing its hauling capabilities.
The Rune of Stability will both assist in allowing the gronti to traverse mountainous terrain, and also make it capable of being a firing platform for a Bolt Hurler mounted on its back.
For the lead engineer, we'd make an amulet with the Runes of Direction, Quick Wits and Perception.
The Bolt Hurler? Well the thread can go nuts there.
The entire setup is designed as an engineer's playground. Think of how much productive fun they could have designing harnesses, interior infrastructure. Making plows, shovels and picks that can be used by its prehensile trunk. Maximizing hauling capacity, making sleds and sleighs to drag, bolting a siege engine on its back and riding it into battle.
Honestly, our Hearth Guard just won't feel complete to me without a shaggy, evil-eyed Mammoth Gronti powering through the snow.
Hopefully this is enough to give a clear picture of my vision, but if not, let me know and I'll try to clarify.
And I hope the point I'm trying to get across is coming through, plans are rarely developed from nothing. And the fact that I have these and know where to look to find designs that have already been debated and refined is definitely an advantage over someone who is new to the quest. And it still wouldn't be a fast process. However even if I had none of this, and we're specifically focused on creations:
- [ ] Theme: write in a theme for the weapon. (I will roll to see if you find a new combo)
- [ ] GM: Leave it to the GM. (I will roll to see if you find a new combo)
- [ ] Function: Give a function or effect for the item in question and the type of equipment. (I will do my best to fulfill the desired effect, if impossible or requiring materials I will alert you. I will roll to see if you find a new combo)
We still have three options available to ask soulcake to do this for us.
Hell this is what we did with Zharghall
-[X] [Difficult] Zharrgal, Golden/Worthy/Valuable Fire, Smith's Hammer, Pt 1: [Cost: 1 action] An idea has come to you, a beautiful thing of Craft. A smith's hammer, its head Adamant and blazing with runes, and its haft good Silver Wutroth reinforced with Adamant rings studded with sapphires and wrapped in Elder Shardwyrm hide for grip. It will draw power from deep beneath the roots of Kraka Drakk and bring it forth to bless your works, and smite your enemies. 1 Action
- [X] Theme: "To draw up and channel the power of your mountain into your forge and your enemies", Use whatever appropriate upgrade ingredients that we have.
I disagree, research is taking literally multiple dwarven life times. every turn is 10 years. We're at turn 56, it's been 560 years in quest since we began. People might well be mono-focusing research but blitzing is absolutely not the word I would use to describe our progress.
I disagree, research is taking literally multiple dwarven life times. every turn is 10 years. We're at turn 56, it's been 560 years in quest since we began. People might well be mono-focusing research but blitzing is absolutely not the word I would use to describe our progress.
When you consider how much progress Snorri has achieved, on previously thought to be intractable problems, you can see why I chose the word.
Gromril chain canonically remained an unsolved problem, as was the rule of three.
500 years is really not that long by elder Dwarf standards, and Snorri was working on other projects (Prosthetics and Khazagar) and regularly fighting in wars.
Didn't some of the Runelords grumble because Snorri released the MKII chainforger less than two centuries after the MKI? Saying that he should have waited and released the MK2 directly?
Didn't some of the Runelords grumble because Snorri released the MKII chainforger less than two centuries after the MKI? Saying that he should have waited and released the MK2 directly?
You are correct in spirit, however I think technically, other Runelords would have grumbled if it hadn't been associated with Khazagar. As it was they thought Snorri was just using a free sample so that interest would be generated when he released the real method with Khazagar. So they are assuming it was a long term marketing scheme rather than what they would otherwise thought.
What? Where was this posted? We offered before going on this field trip but I don't remember seeing the results. We just skipped straight to arriving at Izril. I assumed the reactions to the offer would happen when we got back.
What? Where was this posted? We offered before going on this field trip but I don't remember seeing the results. We just skipped straight to arriving at Izril. I assumed the reactions to the offer would happen when we got back.
Honestly, the double whammy of losing the far north and the east in the incursion compounded with the Ancestors leaving a couple centuries later must have already started the civ wide depression spiral even as the canonical golden age began. When the start of your golden age begins with losing a good third of your empire it's not a great start and not likely to be conducive to pushing the bounds of runesmithing or anything really.
I like it, only thing I could see needing a correction is that I've never seen and elf jaw line that wasn't sharp and high, unless she is much younger then I remember some of that baby fat needs to be trimed from the elf cheeks. But other then that great.
I like it, only thing I could see needing a correction is that I've never seen and elf jaw line that wasn't sharp and high, unless she is much younger then I remember some of that baby fat needs to be trimed from the elf cheeks. But other then that great.
I think I might need 
