On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
Obviously, in Table Top rules, things like incarnate gods get nerfed so they're more balanced in play. We do have examples of what an incarnate warrior god looks like, as we have Orion.
Obviously, in Table Top rules, things like incarnate gods get nerfed so they're more balanced in play. We do have examples of what an incarnate warrior god looks like, as we have Orion.
On the other hand, surely they'll find more than a few trolls whilst looking for Chaos-shits, so the Northern Holds will no doubt be safer from them as well.
That and it seems like he wouldn't want people to be overly reliant on him and the Ancestor gods and would prefer to not deal with every single problem that other dwarfs can handle on their own.
I'm trying to think of a Scenario to make having such a powerful character fun to play against. But any opposition will simply melt the moment he hits it.
He does exactly what he should. Murderblender everything.
But not having anything that can put a dent into him is not super interesting or fun, in a game.
In theory, you could keep him busy, and try to do as much damage as you can, but any demon rank and file will simply disappear due to instability at the end of the combat round, and anything big (and i mean Greater deamons/Emperor dragons) will just tear like so much wet tissue. This is Grimnir, so, that's par for the course.
But in a TT game it doesn't work, as fun is an important factor.
Though it's nice to see the forces of Chaos run from something too hard for them.
I'm trying to think of a Scenario to make having such a powerful character fun to play against. But any opposition will simply melt the moment he hits it.
He does exactly what he should. Murderblender everything.
But not having anything that can put a dent into him is not super interesting or fun, in a game.
In theory, you could keep him busy, and try to do as much damage as you can, but any demon rank and file will simply disappear due to instability at the end of the combat round, and anything big (and i mean Greater deamons/Emperor dragons) will just tear like so much wet tissue. This is Grimnir, so, that's par for the course.
But in a TT game it doesn't work, as fun is an important factor.
Though it's nice to see the forces of Chaos run from something too hard for them.
I'm working on separating it into two profiles, with the Slayereseque stuff on the second one, not the first, but not having the armor, cloak, and three Axes.
That and it seems like he wouldn't want people to be overly reliant on him and the Ancestor gods and would prefer to not deal with every single problem that other dwarfs can handle on their own.
I'm trying to think of a Scenario to make having such a powerful character fun to play against. But any opposition will simply melt the moment he hits it.
He does exactly what he should. Murderblender everything.
But not having anything that can put a dent into him is not super interesting or fun, in a game.
In theory, you could keep him busy, and try to do as much damage as you can, but any demon rank and file will simply disappear due to instability at the end of the combat round, and anything big (and i mean Greater deamons/Emperor dragons) will just tear like so much wet tissue. This is Grimnir, so, that's par for the course.
But in a TT game it doesn't work, as fun is an important factor.
Though it's nice to see the forces of Chaos run from something too hard for them.
I'm working on separating it into two profiles, with the Slayereseque stuff on the second one, not the first, but not having the armor, cloak, and three Axes.
I was inspired by @soulcake , so I decided to make a reasonable Grimnir model that could theoretically work in TT. I mean, in really big games, or against the Lords of the End Times, but eh.
Grimnir, Ancestor God of War and Fury
945 points
M 4
WS 10
BS 7
S 6
T 6 (10)
W 5
I 6
A 6
Ld 10
Troop type: Infantry (Special Character)
Special Rules: Relentless, Resolute, Slayer, Unbreakable and Immune to Psychology,
Ancestor of War: Grimnir must be the army General. When rolling on the Ancestral Grudge table, your army receives a +1 modifier. If the result is 7 Grimnir, and any unit he joins, may re-roll failed To Hit rolls in every round of close combat, not just the first. He may join units, and any unit he joins is Unbreakable. If he is slain, all friendly models from Warhammer: Dwarfs immediately gain the Frenzy rule. All units from Warhammer Dwarfs within 12" of Grimnir automatically pass Panic tests.
Axes of Grimnir: Forged and inscribed by Grungni and Thungni together, this trio of axes has slain every possible manner of foe: Grimnir has three axes with different profiles. Before starting the game, choose which two Axes will be used. Their effects will be treated as a single Magic Weapon.
Az-Dreugidum: Multiple Wounds (D3), D6 against Daemons and Dragons. Ignores Armour Saves, automatically Wounds.
Rune Axe of Grimnir: Always Strike First, any model not in Magic Armour is wounded on a To Wound roll of 2+, regardless of the target's Toughness, and 3+ against those with Magic Armour. Multiple Wounds (D6) Wounds against Giants and Chaos Giants.
Axe of Grimnir: +2 Strength, reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls. Successful armor saves against this axe must be rerolled.
Attacks made with the Axes of Grimnir have the Always Strike First special rule, auto-wound, and ignore Armor Saves. In addition, all attacks cause D3 Wounds, and D6 against Daemons, Dragons, and Giants.
Armor of the Mountain: 1+ Armour Save, 4+ Ward Save, provides Toughness 10.
Cloak of the Divine Wife: Magic Resistance 3, the player has a +2 bonus to all attempts to dispel magic. Additionally, all Remains in Play spells are immediately dispelled on a D6 roll of 3+ at the start of each friendly Magic phase (roll separately for each Remains in Play spell)
Grimnir the First Slayer:
930 points
M 4
WS 10
BS 7
S 6
T 6
W 5
I 6
A 6
Ld 10
Daemon Slayer, Deathblow, Dragon Slayer, Hatred, Relentless, Resolute, Unbreakable and Immune to Psychology
Grimnir may not be Army General, nor may he join units.
The First Slayer: Grimnir has Frenzy, and for every Attack that successfully hits, he may make another Attack. These additional Attacks cannot produce more Attacks. When rolling on the Ancestral Grudge table, roll for Grimnir separately, with a +2 modifier. If the result is 7 or higher Grimnir may re-roll failed To Hit rolls in every round of close combat, not just the first.
The Axes of Grimnir: Attacks made with the Axes of Grimnir have the Always Strike First special rule, auto-wound, and ignore Armor Saves. In addition, all attacks cause D3 Wounds, and D6 against Daemons, Dragons, and Giants.
Axes of Grimnir: Forged and inscribed by Grungni and Thungni together, this trio of axes has slain every possible manner of foe: Grimnir has three axes with different profiles. Before starting the game, choose which two Axes will be used. Their effects will be treated as a single Magic Weapon.
Az-Dreugidum: Multiple Wounds (D3), D6 against Daemons and Dragons. Ignores Armour Saves, automatically Wounds.
Rune Axe of Grimnir: Always Strike First, any model not in Magic Armour is wounded on a To Wound roll of 2+, regardless of the target's Toughness, and 3+ against those with Magic Armour. Multiple Wounds (D6) Wounds against Giants and Chaos Giants.
Axe of Grimnir: +2 Strength, reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls. Successful armor saves against this axe must be rerolled.
Attacks made with the Axes of Grimnir have the Always Strike First special rule, auto-wound, and ignore Armor Saves. In addition, all attacks cause D3 Wounds, and D6 against Daemons, Dragons, and Giants.
A1 = Auto wounds and Ignores saves, Multiple wounds
A2 = ASF, Wound on 2+ or 3+, Multiple wounds
A3 = +2S, Re roll failed hit, wound and successful saves
General rules: ASF, auto wound, ignore saves and do D3 wounds.
This seems to make the above 3 axes redundant.
I would make the Player choose which Axe to use at the start of the combat round rather than combine 2 of them. And lose the general rule. There's precedent for this kind of mechanics with Wardancers.
Edit: from after the Rework> He's a Malekith that doesn't fly. Dwarfs don't need no dragons.
A1 = Auto wounds and Ignores saves, Multiple wounds
A2 = ASF, Wound on 2+ or 3+, Multiple wounds
A3 = +2S, Re roll failed hit, wound and successful saves
General rules: ASF, auto wound, ignore saves and do D3 wounds.
This seems to make the above 3 axes redundant.
I would make the Player choose which Axe to use at the start of the combat round and just use that for the entire combat, rather than combine them. There's precedent for this kind of mechanics with Wardancers.
You're not wrong about the overlap, but I prefer the two Axe image as well as their not being a perfect combo. This is meant to have people accept sacrifices. What about something like Horus' rules where he allocates his Attacks each round to individual axes?
I mean, when you think about it, everything Grimnir has done has been a direct result of his own self and feelings. Daemons are nearby, he's not gonna let that stand. Dragon pops into the Underway when he's there, fuck off, and now I feel annoyed so I'mma make sure this shoddy work ain't happening again. Even the Great Throng is basically him getting fed up after so many Daemon hordes popped up in his presence, not the Karaz Ankor in general.
This isn't to say he's selfish, rather, that as some have implied, he's tried in his own way to allow the Dawi to be able to rule and live without divine hand holding.
You're not wrong about the overlap, but I prefer the two Axe image as well as their not being a perfect combo. This is meant to have people accept sacrifices. What about something like Horus' rules where he allocates his Attacks each round to individual axes?
It's not much of a sacrifice, because all the weapons are so good and he's got such good stats.
He's hitting anything on 3s and wounding on 2s unless he's fighting massive monsters
With Ax 1, he hits on 3s, doesn't roll to wound, no saves and does D6 wounds to Dragons and Demons. No dragon/demon can survive this.
With Ax 2, he hits on 3s, wounds on 2/3s and does D6 wounds to Giants. Giants have ~6 wounds?. No giant survives
With Ax 3, he hits on 3s, reroll failures, wounds on 2 (due to strength 8) and rerolls failures. No one gets a save better than a 6+, due to S8 (-5) and then they reroll. If you're fighting Demons/Giants/Dragons use the other Axes.
And the combination of two axes makes it even more obscene.
It's a good attempt, but the system just breaks down at these levels.
The discussion about tabletop feels very off topic at this point. I'm sure there is some general warhammer tabletop thread where the hypothetical stats of the ancestor gods can be talked about instead.
The fact that there is a stat block where Gotrek and Bugman serve as hammerers for Grombrindal is hilarious, even though it wouldn't happen because Gotrek is a Slayer.
