RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

soulcake · Apr 21, 2020

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

Dark as Silver · Feb 4, 2025

Evillevi said:
???

My brain can't parse this.

IIRC the chants are by the Runesmith while smithing a rune, Since Karstah made some runes she had to have been doing the chants her self.

or if you're refering to the ritual, I'm not sure what you're implying.

Sure so to go back to your characteristics.

Evillevi said:
The other characteristics are speculation froms Mevillyn. Namely that the ritual has <A> The repetitive chanting from runesmithing (or the repetitive nature of runesmith generall) from start to finish <B> The theme of Seven + Ancestor gods and<C> the powerful items we have at location.

It was only a Ritual when A,B and C were all present.
So when Karstah was doing it she wasn't wearing BarakAzamar and C was not present.
And until Snorri started chanting A was not present and as soon as he stopped A ceased to be present.
Therefore it was only an actual magical ritual while Snorri was chanting.

Evillevi said:
Fuck me yeah I made a mistake. I was thinking Stilling fields rather then souls. Got confused with the descriptions.

Personally I'm still not sure if the Stilling Field is like an extra organ in the soul, the soul itself just projected outwards or an unconscious reflex or technique of the soul.
Purely descriptive I lean towards the first answer, but how its a field rather than just some carried around in the body is unlike other souls.
Theres a lot to still understand there.

Evillevi · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
It was only a Ritual when A,B and C were all present.
So when Karstah was doing it she wasn't wearing BarakAzamar and C was not present.
And until Snorri started chanting A was not present and as soon as he stopped A ceased to be present.
Therefore it was only an actual magical ritual while Snorri was chanting.

Ahhh I get it.

So basically the counter idea is that the Ritual effectively is paused whenever Snorri removes himself from the picture. Or more accurately it's only turned on when Snorri is interacting with it since only he can power it. Thus letting Karstah rune safely as she doesn't fulfill the fundamental ritual part of being able to pump magic into the system.

Which is possible since we don't have any real data on how ritual magic works. We know how to stop it by sending in tactical Firestorm Santa but that's primarily in a combat context.

As an aside C refers to the Ancestors items, not BarakAzamar. I forgot to mention last night that Marvilyn description has a contextual assumption that the Ritual Caster must have the ability to pump winds into the ritual. That would make our ability with our equipment to pump magic 24/7 as an unsaid 4th requirement.

But let's set aside for the moment whether Karstah did or did not participate in the ritual.

If the Dawi Runesmith lack only the ability to pump magic into the ritual, why haven't we seen more weird interactions with Snorri's Runesmithing since technically he releases a signficantly amoutn of winds all the time. And obviously so much that he can power a baby ritual. Currently the oddity is that Runes made in the Runversity is a different colour and can draw off deep magic, but that's the Runversity and not a Snorri thing.

Does the wind get channeled directly into him with no bleedover? or does it magically appear at the border of the stilling fields.? Etc

Alratan · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
It was only a Ritual when A,B and C were all present.
So when Karstah was doing it she wasn't wearing BarakAzamar and C was not present.
And until Snorri started chanting A was not present and as soon as he stopped A ceased to be present.
Therefore it was only an actual magical ritual while Snorri was chanting.

Note that A was not just chanting, it was also 'or the repetitive nature of runesmith general'. And consider this bit of the update:

soulcake said:
It seems to follow no rhyme or reason, until you realize the Winds seem to react to Karstah's chanting—or the state of her mind than the ringing blow of her hammer.

We know the chant is unnecessary to say aloud, so it's very likely the shift in the runesmith (or ritualists) mind state that the Winds resonate with in both cases.

Dark as Silver · Feb 4, 2025

Evillevi said:
Ahhh I get it.

So basically the counter idea is that the Ritual effectively is paused whenever Snorri removes himself from the picture. Or more accurately it's only turned on when Snorri is interacting with it since only he can power it. Thus letting Karstah rune safely as she doesn't fulfill the fundamental ritual part of being able to pump magic into the system.

Which is possible since we don't have any real data on how ritual magic works. We know how to stop it by sending in tactical Firestorm Santa but that's primarily in a combat context.

As an aside C refers to the Ancestors items, not BarakAzamar. I forgot to mention last night that Marvilyn description has a contextual assumption that the Ritual Caster must have the ability to pump winds into the ritual. That would make our ability with our equipment to pump magic 24/7 as an unsaid 4th requirement.

But let's set aside for the moment whether Karstah did or did not participate in the ritual.

If the Dawi Runesmith lack only the ability to pump magic into the ritual, why haven't we seen more weird interactions with Snorri's Runesmithing since technically he releases a signficantly amoutn of winds all the time. And obviously so much that he can power a baby ritual. Currently the oddity is that Runes made in the Runversity is a different colour and can draw off deep magic, but that's the Runversity and not a Snorri thing.

Does the wind get channeled directly into him with no bleedover? or does it magically appear at the border of the stilling fields.? Etc

Or that what we actually did was hundreds of minor rituals that the elf assumed was one single well planned ritual. Or that Snorri just didn't sleep or take a break for long enough to interrupt a single ritual. Which are both possibilities I can't dismiss out of hand.
I know you are referring C to the wider items, however really BA is the only one that matters as a magic pump,

soulcake said:
-Conduit of the Earth: ??? The Oldest Magics, nai the Oldest Forces on the planet fill the armour, pulled forth by the heart of something that could never be satiated. The eternal energy of the ageless living earth flows like water through a channel carved in the stone and into the wearer.

We did not have Thungni's hammer at the time.
and since, Zhargals additonal effects are only activated when used together with BA

soulcake said:
- Touched by the Earth: It drinks deeply and greedily from the power that Barak Azamar releases. When used in conjunction with the armour, the weapon's abilities are greatly empowered,

and I doubt we'd have been wearing SB due to the risk of friendly fire.
So even if it was technically all of them, 90% of that was a single item so I'm just going to simplify.

Then again the misunderstanding of the 4th requirement might be why we're making this distinction. Snorri did not knowingly realise he was pumping magic into the ritual, that was just BA doing its normal thing which is what I assumed you meant when you were talking about the items.
E:

Alratan said:
Note that A was not just chanting, it was also 'or the repetitive nature of runesmith general'. And consider this bit of the update:

We know the chant is unnecessary to say aloud, so it's very likely the shift in the runesmith (or ritualists) mind state that the Winds resonate with in both cases.

This requires that we take the assumption that actual runesmithing can be framed as a sub section of magical rituals.
Which sounds suspiciously like elf talk to me.
Although I joke Menlinwen explicitly believes runesmithing is not ritual magic.

soulcake said:
"Indeed, I did not think your people were capable of ritual magic, but you have proved me wrong. Fascinating really." She continues academically, turning to look at Khazagar.

Which makes you worse than an elf..... dun dun dun

ShiningBright · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
and I doubt we'd have been wearing SB due to the risk of friendly fire.

We did wear Skarren when runing Khazagar

soulcake said:
- Touched by the Storm: When Snorri wears Skarrenbakraz and remains within Khazagar, the range of the cloak's storm can be expanded to encompass the entirety of Khazagar's grounds if it is within Snorri's line of sight.

Edit:

Dark as Silver said:
I assumed that came from Snorri's trait

Given that the Khazagar trait is only a synergy with Skarren, and that Touched by the Storm in general seems to be the trait connected to Skarren I doubt that, but it doesn't matter because I can do you one better:

The winning plan at the time specifically said we should equip Skarren for it

soulcake said:
[X] Plan A Wonder For The Age and Double Drakk Rearing
Snorri and Karstah
- [X] A Wonderful Endeavor: 3 Karstah AP, 5 Snorri AP (Wear Skarren, BA, and Zharrgal.) ✓

Subjected to the Storm seems much more connected with Echoes of the Anvil, going by it's description

soulcake said:
- Echoes of the Anvil: Hysh, Aqshy and Chamon are drawn to this place, visible only to those with windsight.

Dark as Silver · Feb 4, 2025

ShiningBright said:
We did wear Skarren when runing Khazagar

I assumed that came from Snorri's trait

soulcake said:
Unknown
Subjected to the Storm: Your body is covered in wounds that do not heal quickly, even while wearing Barak Azamar. Hysh, Aqshy, and Chamon are inextricably drawn to you.

rather than from SB

Evillevi · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
I know you are referring C to the wider items, however really BA is the only one that matters as a magic pump,

Assuming our elf friend is correct, C represents the thematic items to link the ancestor gods into the ritual.

But that's a minor point . The key point that I agree is that the BA, our surviving the Anvil the first time, and the rest of our set to amplify BA is what makes it possible.

Dark as Silver said:
Or that what we actually did was hundreds of minor rituals that the elf assumed was one single well planned ritual. Or that Snorri just didn't sleep or take a break for long enough to interrupt a single ritual. Which are both possibilities I can't dismiss out of hand.

As an aside there's also the possibility that BA is always active and the ritual never stop being powered.

Dark as Silver · Feb 4, 2025

Evillevi said:
Assuming our elf friend is correct, C represents the thematic items to link the ancestor gods into the ritual.

But that's a minor point . The key point that I agree is that the BA, our surviving the Anvil the first time, and the rest of our set to amplify BA is what makes it possible.

As an aside there's also the possibility that BA is always active and the ritual never stop being powered.

Oh in that case I guess I just assumed B and C where double counting.
That one possibility we can hopefully dismiss. Snorri has left Khazagar since it was founded and we haven't been told everything stopped glowing unusual colours. If we can't walk a half a continent away without breaking the ritual I'm not sure its still considered a ritual. More like a surprisingly mobile power source.

Evillevi · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
Oh in that case I guess I just assumed B and C where double counting.
That one possibility we can hopefully dismiss. Snorri has left Khazagar since it was founded and we haven't been told everything stopped glowing unusual colours. If we can't walk a half a continent away without breaking the ritual I'm not sure its still considered a ritual. More like a surprisingly mobile power source.

A minor point , but I think we're talking about rituals differently.

As I understand the ritual is primarily a type of spellcasting with something happening after it's completed. The Khazagar ritual itself has long since completed and the effect, if any, is seperate from the ritual itself at this point.

That aside it there is an interesting point with the recent failure. The first order failure is that the Rune failed to get magic from the environment, as Karstah Stilling field didn't shrink. It primarily suck most of that energy from karstah who got real weak. Would that mean that the power of a Rune is dependant on the amount of Energy in the air. That would fit with the Anvil makes supercharge runes by concentraing a massive amount of energy in one spot.

If that's the case, it suggest that temporarily boosting the ambient magic such as by using a dragon to saturate the immediate area (with a modified flame drinker rune) should also boost the runes, if at a minor level with our drakkids current power.

This also suggest that the first part of the poem in Rune crafting "Will guides it" likely refers to the Winds. Somehow the Runesmith can impose their will on the winds sufficently enough to guide it into the rune.

Dark as Silver · Feb 4, 2025

Evillevi said:
A minor point , but I think we're talking about rituals differently.

As I understand the ritual is primarily a type of spellcasting with something happening after it's completed. The Khazagar ritual itself has long since completed and the effect, if any, is seperate from the ritual itself at this point.

That aside it there is an interesting point with the recent failure. The first order failure is that the Rune failed to get magic from the environment, as Karstah Stilling field didn't shrink. It primarily suck most of that energy from karstah who got real weak. Would that mean that the power of a Rune is dependant on the amount of Energy in the air. That would fit with the Anvil makes supercharge runes by concentraing a massive amount of energy in one spot.

If that's the case, it suggest that temporarily boosting the ambient magic such as by using a dragon to saturate the immediate area (with a modified flame drinker rune) should also boost the runes, if at a minor level with our drakkids current power.

This also suggest that the first part of the poem in Rune crafting "Will guides it" likely refers to the Winds. Somehow the Runesmith can impose their will on the winds sufficently enough to guide it into the rune.

I think nearly all magic falls under ritual magic given that definition, I think spells that are channelled are kinda rare in comparison to ones where you cast it then a thing happens. Hell, I could define handing someone a magic sword as ritual magic, the something that happens (someone gets hit by a magic sword) long after its completed (I hand over a sword).
Probably needs some workshopping.

Erm I want to say no, the purpose of runes is to standardise and magic magic reliable. Runesmiths naturally repel the winds so that would suggest older runesmiths who repel better have less magic near the rune and create worse items as a result. Snorri hasn't responded to the conundrum by saying, "Oh right maybe this explains why runes sometimes just fail to be created and nobody knows why."
However its true that the positive case certainly seems to apply, even if we've never heard of instances of the negative.

This is the sort of thing where I think the only way we can know is @ ing soulcake and asking if Snorri has run this specific experiment, and the answer will probably be "You can't increase the level of ambient magic except by building a super complex and this is the result you get:

soulcake said:
- Nexus of the Earth: As the result of both Barak Azamar and the innumerable Runes of Siphoning present dredging up so much Deep Magic, all Runes within Khazagar glow with a warm, soft golden light rather than their usual teal glow. While this effect is temporary for Runes made outside of Khazagar, any Rune created within will have this visual effect permanently.

A couple of dragons do not make a statistically measurable influence."
Because TBH I don't want to have to deal with infrastructure quest to be mechanically optimal. Its interesting as one offs, as solutions to certain problems, but as soon as we get into a loop where we make runes of siphoning to make a better rune of siphonning and repeat until Maz comes over from Lustria to tell us to stop stealling all the geomantic web juice, that just looks boring to me.

Evillevi · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
Erm I want to say no, the purpose of runes is to standardise and magic magic reliable. Runesmiths naturally repel the winds so that would suggest older runesmiths who repel better have less magic near the rune and create worse items as a result. Snorri hasn't responded to the conundrum by saying, "Oh right maybe this explains why runes sometimes just fail to be created and nobody knows why."
However its true that the positive case certainly seems to apply, even if we've never heard of instances of the negative.

This is the sort of thing where I think the only way we can know is @ ing soulcake and asking if Snorri has run this specific experiment, and the answer will probably be "You can't increase the level of ambient magic except by building a super complex and this is the result you get:

Going by the description from the second last update

soulcake said:
The energy crawls into you through your feet and you lose sight of the Winds at that point. But while you can't see the path they take, you know where it all ends up as the trails of energy that connect you to the Rune swell and grow in size.

The final and most drastic change happens near the end of the rite, at the point when the Rune comes to completion.

The Stilling Field that you project outwards, the barrier that held back the Winds that now swirl around you in an increasingly stronger and faster vortex begins to shrink and weaken. Milimeter by milimeter, until its barely thirty centimeters out and so weak that roughly half of the volume of magic gets through.

Then as you swing the hammer down the final time and the Rune glow as it activates for the first time you see the Rune draw in and absorb all of the Winds around you; leaving a volume of space utterly devoid of magic before nature takes its course and the vacuum is filled.

This implies that there is both a range the rune can absorb magic, that it can absorb magic through the stilling field, and that the stilling field will shrink until it hopefully brings enough magic in range of the rune to trigger it.

Dark as Silver said:
A couple of dragons do not make a statistically measurable influence."
Because TBH I don't want to have to deal with infrastructure quest to be mechanically optimal. Its interesting as one offs, as solutions to certain problems, but as soon as we get into a loop where we make runes of siphoning to make a better rune of siphonning and repeat until Maz comes over from Lustria to tell us to stop stealling all the geomantic web juice, that just looks boring to me.

I was more thinking of a final version where it's technically possible to use the crafting of runes offensively. Mini waystone to pull ambient magic from battles into range of a crafting Runesmith.

Granted there's no practical way to actually create a rune in battle but I can still imagine it dammit.

Alratan · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
This requires that we take the assumption that actual runesmithing can be framed as a sub section of magical rituals.
Which sounds suspiciously like elf talk to me.
Although I joke Menlinwen explicitly believes runesmithing is not ritual magic.

More that magical rituals and runesmithing are both sub-categories of a single wider phenomena.

Dark as Silver said:
I think nearly all magic falls under ritual magic given that definition, I think spells that are channelled are kinda rare in comparison to ones where you cast it then a thing happens. Hell, I could define handing someone a magic sword as ritual magic, the something that happens (someone gets hit by a magic sword) long after its completed (I hand over a sword).
Probably needs some workshopping.

While that's too broad, at least according to Realms of Sorcery conventional enchanting is explicitly a magical ritual that produces a semi-permanent effect of an item now being imbued with magic and able to produce magical effects.

It would be offensive to dwarves, but runesmithing may be less different to conventional enchanting in terms of results than might be expected.

Evillevi said:
This implies that there is both a range the rune can absorb magic, that it can absorb magic through the stilling field, and that the stilling field will shrink until it hopefully brings enough magic in range of the rune to trigger it.

The Winds of Magic are also flowing through the runesmith while they're forging, so the stilling field is at least semi-permeable:

soulcake said:
But though you can only glimpse it for moments, you see that your soul and the magic within is alight with activity.

The veins of gold glow, multifaceted and multihued light rushing through them rhythmically like the energy that pulses from Barak Azamar.

Chamon gold, Ghyran emerald and Hyshian Diamond light pulsed to the beat of some unknown rhythm.

It is wondrous to behold.

Dark as Silver · Feb 4, 2025

Alratan said:
More that magical rituals and runesmithing are both sub-categories of a single wider phenomena.

While that's too broad, at least according to Realms of Sorcery conventional enchanting is explicitly a magical ritual that produces a semi-permanent effect of an item now being imbued with magic and able to produce magical effects.

It would be offensive to dwarves, but runesmithing may be less different to conventional enchanting in terms of results than might be expected.

So your hypothesis is that given both Rituals and Runesmithing are sub sets of some more general category. It is possible that we could exclude the chanting that we were told is probably a requirement from the Ritual, based on the fact that it is not required in Runesmithing?

Alratan · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
So your hypothesis is that given both Rituals and Runesmithing are sub sets of some more general category. It is possible that we could exclude the chanting that we were told is probably a requirement from the Ritual, based on the fact that it is not required in Runesmithing?

I'm not sure we know all rituals absolutely require chanting. Would they work if you think the words very hard, for example?

Given the potential danger, would many people want to try when actually doing the chanting costs nothing.

DragonParadox · Feb 4, 2025

Alratan said:
I'm not sure we know all rituals absolutely require chanting. Would they work if you think the words very hard, for example?

Given the potential danger, would many people want to try when actually doing the chanting costs nothing.

Since spell-casting can be done without chanting I see no reason why rituals should. At the end of the day all rituals are just very large scale spells performed over a long period of time.

Dark as Silver · Feb 4, 2025

Alratan said:
I'm not sure we know all rituals absolutely require chanting. Would they work if you think the words very hard, for example?

Given the potential danger, would many people want to try when actually doing the chanting costs nothing.

DragonParadox said:
Since spell-casting can be done without chanting I see no reason why rituals should. At the end of the day all rituals are just very large scale spells performed over a long period of time.

Perhaps not all rituals require chanting however our best evidence in universe so far suggests that this one did:
Explicitly

soulcake said:
Thirdly, the language. Chanting in Khazalid, especially the archaic Khazalid in some of the Runes, must have sufficed for the spell itself. Here Menlinwen is surprised you managed anything at all, because this is often an incredibly precise set of incantations and for you to stumble into something that worked, let alone provided a result that was at least not actively harmful, is one in several millions.

In general, assuming that chanting can be replaced by thinking hard enough, then we can probably also replace material components that attract or effect wind with a comparable mind state. And then apply this to basically any other part of the ritual. At what point does this become just a spell and we have lost all meaning to the word ritual?

For the record my personal assumption is that not all rituals can be pared back infinitely, some components must be required to do things that a soul cannot, such as being a 20ft wide circle for a ritual circle.
Further more we currently have no evidence that they can be pared back at all, excpet the assumption that if runesmithing is a kind of ritual, and runesmithing can eventually replace chanting with a state of mind then surely rituals can also do this.
This is a questionable stance. For starters, the expert in the room considers Runesmithing to be different and distinct from rituals

soulcake said:
"Indeed, I did not think your people were capable of ritual magic, but you have proved me wrong. Fascinating really."

Secondly it makes the mistake of thinking the chanting was part of the runesmithing in the first place, which is incorrect. The chanting was to shape the will of the runesmith, once the will can be shaped correctly without the chanting, the chanting becomes uneccessary, because it was never a required component of the runesmithing in the first place.

Alratan · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
Perhaps not all rituals require chanting however our best evidence in universe so far suggests that this one did:
Explicitly

In general, assuming that chanting can be replaced by thinking hard enough, then we can probably also replace material components that attract or effect wind with a comparable mind state. And then apply this to basically any other part of the ritual. At what point does this become just a spell and we have lost all meaning to the word ritual?

For the record my personal assumption is that not all rituals can be pared back infinitely, some components must be required to do things that a soul cannot, such as being a 20ft wide circle for a ritual circle.
Further more we currently have no evidence that they can be pared back at all, excpet the assumption that if runesmithing is a kind of ritual, and runesmithing can eventually replace chanting with a state of mind then surely rituals can also do this.
This is a questionable stance. For starters, the expert in the room considers Runesmithing to be different and distinct from rituals

Secondly it makes the mistake of thinking the chanting was part of the runesmithing in the first place, which is incorrect. The chanting was to shape the will of the runesmith, once the will can be shaped correctly without the chanting, the chanting becomes uneccessary, because it was never a required component of the runesmithing in the first place.

Chanting may be part of runesmithing in the way that a crutch is part of walking with a broken leg. When you're capable enough, you can replace the function that the chant provides with precise control over your own mind/soul to do the thing that the (magically resonant?) archaic Khazalid. The spoken words could actually be doing something more than just shaping the mindset of the runesmith, but a good enough runesmith may be able to compensate for the lack of whatever it is. As runesmithing is a balck box, previously runesmiths wouldn't have been able to tell the difference

Note in your quote, it says 'must have sufficed for the spell itself'. We know that magical languages are not necessary for spellcasting, but make it much easier and safer - but if you're good enough you can skip them. It could be the same for runesmithing.

And the answer may be that rituals are just big spells, and that bigger spells are much harder to control, so you get to the point where virtually no one can discard the components. A 1st generation Slann may be able to do with an expression of will what would take a mortal wizard a long and complex ritual with difficult to acquire components they could never skip.

Alternatively, there may be some things that you can optionally skip but others that are essential, because a magic user can substitute for whatever magic words do with sufficiently fine control of their soul but no substitute is possible for not having, say, purified gold if you're gilding yourself.

DragonParadox said:
We solved that when we made better prosthetics, same action we made the eyes in.

Just going back to this, as I missed it earlier, our runic limbs are as strong as a strong dwarf, but our runic sensory organs only have average dwarven ability, they're not as good as a particularly competent dwarf in the field

I had hoped that Secrets of Light might improve visual acuity of the Rune of Forged Eye, but it wasn't to be. Perhaps the next round of the utility branch of the research will.

DragonParadox · Feb 4, 2025

Alratan said:
Just going back to this, as I missed it earlier, our runic limbs are as strong as a strong dwarf, but our runic sensory organs only have average dwarven ability, they're not as good as a particularly competent dwarf in the field

I had hoped that Secrets of Light might improve visual acuity of the Rune of Forged Eye, but it wasn't to be. Perhaps the next round of the utility branch of the research will.

I don't think that is relevant in any meaningful mechanical sense. It might do something if for some reason we had to replace both our eyes with prosthetics, but being 'as good as the average dwarf' and also you can see magic is still a quantum leap in rune understanding. I wouldn't say no to an even more advanced rune of forged eye, but it's hardly a priority

Dark as Silver · Feb 4, 2025

Alratan said:
the chant provides with precise control over your own mind/soul to do the thing that the (magically resonant?) archaic Khazalid

No, I don't think the chant is magical or affecting the mind in the way you seem to thing it might be.
How do I put this, you wouldn't happen to be one of the people who go and put this sort of song on when you're reading updates?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm96Cqu4Ils
I know some people in the thread do.
It would be pretty illustrative for the argument of how mundane music can affect a persons headspace.
Snorri recognised this in the last update.

soulcake said:
It seems to follow no rhyme or reason, until you realize the Winds seem to react to Karstah's chanting—or the state of her mind than the ringing blow of her hammer.

But why? You think it unlikely to be the chant itself, history has proven you do not need it, and Karstah is only doing so because you had asked her to.

You watch for a moment longer, before it hits you like a fist in the face.

Karstah's hammer swings down just as she speaks, her body lagging behind her soul, the golden lines on her soul pulse and the Winds of Magic flicker and draw together a little more than before.

Will guides it
The chant is not the cause, but it is correlation.

The soul, of course it would be. How could you be so stupid to not realize earlier?

What other way could one control a metaphysical substance than with metaphysical tools?

Theres currently no reason to believe that the chant has a magical function.

Alratan · Feb 4, 2025

DragonParadox said:
I don't think that is relevant in any meaningful mechanical sense. It might do something if for some reason we had to replace both our eyes with prosthetics, but being 'as good as the average dwarf' and also you can see magic is still a quantum leap in rune understanding. I wouldn't say no to an even more advanced rune of forged eye, but it's hardly a priority

It depends if the visual acuity of the eye also limits the acuity of the Windsight.

Dark as Silver said:
No, I don't think the chant is magical or affecting the mind in the way you seem to thing it might be.
How do I put this, you wouldn't happen to be one of the people who go and put this sort of song on when you're reading updates?

Now would Snorri be able to tell the difference at this point though? I can think of some experiments, but really direct investigation would require more Mind of Things research so he can do things like record and then experience other runesmiths subjective experience of crafting a rune with or without a chant and correlating that with what he saw when he observed them with and without their knowledge in was observing.

DragonParadox · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
Theres currently no reason to believe that the chant has a magical function.

There are at least two very good reasons

It is part of an act of magic i.e. making runes
It's in an archaic and more magically resonant version of Khazalid

Dark as Silver · Feb 4, 2025

Alratan said:
Now would Snorri be able to tell the difference at this point though?

Its always possible that Snorri's an unreliable narrator. However when the argument falls apart unless "Maybe soulcake" is psyching us out, I think it becomes useless to discuss that path further.
If you have no WoG or quotes to back up your argument, and your argument falls apart if we take the story as it presents itself. You've got to give me something. Some kind of proof. Not just what ifs and vibes.

DragonParadox said:
There are at least two very good reasons

It is part of an act of magic i.e. making runes

It's in an archaic and more magically resonant version of Khazalid

Please refer to the previous quote in which Snorri realised IC that the chant shaped the will and the will shaped the magic.
Its been mentioned multiple times in that update, 1) is wrong. The chant can and often is ignored.

2 is not good evidence in the slightest. Its evidence that the chants haven't changed a lot in a long time however unless you're also going to argue that archaic dwarves prior to the invention of Runes were more active magically than modern dwarves then its tangential at best.

Alratan · Feb 4, 2025

DragonParadox said:
There are at least two very good reasons

It is part of an act of magic i.e. making runes

It's in an archaic and more magically resonant version of Khazalid

Well, tbf, we don't know that 2 is true here. We know that in Realms of Sorcery it talks about the existence of Arcane Dwarf/Khazalid that's an actually magically resonant language but I'm not sure it's been confirmed here. We'd probably need to have a non-dwarf magic user learn to say some words and speak them to test it. If it caused the Winds to react, we'd know it was likely doing something. That would be rather radical though.

Another option would be to try to speak 'Arcane' Khazalid outside runecrafting in high magic environments and see what happens while observing the ambient Winds and stilling field with a very sensitive Windsight Eye,

Dark as Silver said:
Its always possible that Snorri's an unreliable narrator. However when the argument falls apart unless "Maybe soulcake" is psyching us out, I think it becomes useless to discuss that path further.
If you have no WoG or quotes to back up your argument, and your argument falls apart if we take the story as it presents itself. You've got to give me something. Some kind of proof. Not just what ifs and vibes.

It's not that Snorri is an unreliable narrator, but that he is himself only at the very beginning of a possibly very long chain of investigation, and hasn't done the experiments to have an evidence based opinion one way or the other. Why would you expect him to already know the answer based on the accumulated assumptions of pre-Windsight runesmiths' guesses when it was literally unknowable before. That's what Durin's Consernation was all about.

The argument doesn't fall apart, there's just been infficeint evidence presented in the story to let us tell either way. THis si a deep mystery that we're just beginnign to unveil. Why would you expect we already know these answers?

Dark as Silver · Feb 4, 2025

Alratan said:
Why would you expect him to already know the answer based on the accumulated assumptions of pre-Windsight runesmiths' guesses when it was literally unknowable before.

Because the answer fits all available evidence.

Dude, sometimes "thats a really old guess" isn't the slam dunk you think it is.

"Oh you think the earth is round? Well so did the ancient Greeks, so your evidence is very out of date."

When you're investigating deep mysteries the answer is often to go the next step deeper after your initial question has been answered. Not to reject every answer until you've got at least 4.

Notably the insufficient evidence argument goes far further in one direction than the other. I post three arguments you contest one. Now I don't want to gish gallop you. If you're intending to get back around to contesting that quote where Menlinwen says she didn't think dwarves were capable of Ritual Magic and how that means she clearly defines Runecraft as not Rituals, then thats fine we can get around to that when you feel like it but lets be very clear.
I have provided evidence. You have provided none.
My arguments are based on the beliefs of characters as presented in story. Your arguments are based on the hope that further research will prove those characters wrong.
We are not the same.

DragonParadox · Feb 4, 2025

Dark as Silver said:
Please refer to the previous quote in which Snorri realised IC that the chant shaped the will and the will shaped the magic.
Its been mentioned multiple times in that update, 1) is wrong. The chant can and often is ignored.

And the incantation in other spellcasting is also often ignored by experienced mages, doesn't mean it's not itself useful for conducting magic.

Runesmithing is a branch of magic, it is descended from the same unified understanding of the Aethyr which the Old Ones held, indeed it is likely the dwarfs were themselves created with an affinity with runesmithing intentionally in the same way elves were created with the ability to use High Magic and Slann were made with the ability to use geomancy.

RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

A Pikachu for everything - Shadow Pikachu,2015

A Pikachu for everything - Shadow Pikachu,2015

A Pikachu for everything - Shadow Pikachu,2015

A Pikachu for everything - Shadow Pikachu,2015