Remove ads

RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
DragonParadox said:
it is descended from the same unified understanding of the Aethyr which the Old Ones held
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...
No? No. NO!

Did you miss the previous update in which we earned a mythical deed for finding links between the winds of magic theory and runecraft?

It might be explainable under the understanding of the Aethyr which the old ones had however theres very clearly been a break in the descent at some point.
And in the abscense of any Old Ones it is not explainable under any known paradigms.


E:....

And even if we had that full explaination, that doesn't mean that the chant would have magical properties. Or be more than a placebo.
 
Last edited:
Dark as Silver said:
...
No? No. NO!

Did you miss the previous update in which we earned a mythical deed for finding links between the winds of magic theory and runecraft?

It might be explainable under the understanding of the Aethyr which the old ones had however theres very clearly been a break in the descent at some point.
And in the abscense of any Old Ones it is not explainable under any known paradigms.


E:....

And even if we had that full explaination, that doesn't mean that the chant would have magical properties. Or be more than a placebo.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Old Ones would give a patronizing chuckle at what dwarfs would consider 'mythical', these are the beings that made dwarfs, these are the beings that made the Polar Gates and the Geomantic Web, they could move planets in their orbit and the only reason this planet is livable is because they did. Dwarf civilization exists as escaped experimental subjects in the ruins of one of their facilities and the greatest deeds of the dwarf Ancestor Gods amount to helping stave off the complete meltdown of the facility for a time.

Given this then distinctions between dwarf magic and say elf or Slann magic are explained though difference in their biology, dwarfs for instance are magic repulsive not attractive for instance, but one thing dwarfs have in common with every other magic using old one servant species on the planet is that they speak a language and not just any language, but one derived from that original Old One language. Everyone else uses it in their magic. The idea that for dwarfs and dwarfs alone it's window-dressing strikes me as unlikely no matter that Snori thought so once.
 
DragonParadox said:
The Old Ones would give a patronizing chuckle at what dwarfs would consider 'mythical', these are the beings that made dwarfs, these are the beings that made the Polar Gates and the Geomantic Web, they could move planets in their orbit and the only reason this planet is livable is because they did. Dwarf civilization exists as escaped experimental subjects in the ruins of one of their facilities and the greatest deeds of the dwarf Ancestor Gods amount to helping stave off the complete meltdown of the facility for a time.

Given this then distinctions between dwarf magic and say elf or Slann magic are explained though difference in their biology, dwarfs for instance are magic repulsive not attractive for instance, but one thing dwarfs have in common with every other magic using old one servant species on the planet is that they speak a language and not just any language, but one derived from that original Old One language. Everyone else uses it in their magic. The idea that for dwarfs and dwarfs alone it's window-dressing strikes me as unlikely no matter that Snori thought so once.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
None of this means that the chant is a magical component though.

You know sometimes I wonder if I come off poorly in these arguments but at least I don't think I've ever gone off on an irrelevant tangent in a patronising way.
 
Last edited:
Dark as Silver said:
None of this means that the chant is a magical component though.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's strong circumstantial evidence. The dwarfs' ability to make runes, to speak in general and the particulars of their ancestral Khazalid would have been planned by the Old Ones. The fact that they happen to align, that is that they speak more archaic Khazalid when making runes also paralels other forms of magic.

There is no sensible reason to teach the dwarfs a magically reactive language, which ancestral Khazalid is, if you were not planning for them to shape magic with it and as far as we know the only magic (non-mutated) dwarfs can cast is Runesmithing.
 
DragonParadox said:
It's strong circumstantial evidence.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
But also all derivatives of the language can be used to hold a confusing however non magical conversation. So its not like its exclusive.
So its evidence that the language could be used in order to create those effects.
But its not evidence that it did.

And we have an in character realisation that its not.
soulcake said:
The chant is not the cause, but it is correlation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So...
You know, either engage with the quest as it presents itself directly. Or screech into the hills about how soulcake is trying to trip us up and leave false trails.
 
Dark as Silver said:
But also all derivatives of the language can be used to hold a confusing however non magical conversation. So its not like its exclusive.
So its evidence that the language could be used in order to create those effects.
But its not evidence that it did.

And we have an in character realisation that its not.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm saying the character is wrong, that is me engaging with the quest as it presents itself. I think Snori has limited insights into how runesmithing works and he's making a mistake.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Okay.
Just out of interest, can you suggest another time when we gained a research insight only to later learn we were totally wrong?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This quest has over a million words, I do not think that is a reasonable request to make of me, particularly since you changed the terms.

I do not think Snori is 'totally wrong', I think he is making a mistake. The problem here I think is that Karstah's soul is out of alignment with the ritual, it isn't that she's chanting wrong, it's that she's thinking wrong. Snori is right in that the physical souls are not the important part, but he is wrong in thinking that the chant is just physical sound. If this is like every other form of magic use than the real power is the thought-pattern which can become internalized. This would explain why runes can be made without the chant while also explaining why when the soul is out of alignment the chant comes out wrong.
 
Last edited:
DragonParadox said:
This quest has over a million words, I do not think that is a reasonable request to make of me, particularly since you changed the terms.

I do not think Snori is 'totally wrong', I think he is making a mistake. The problem here I think is that Karstah's soul is out of alignment with the ritual, it isn't that she's chanting wrong, it's that she's thinking wrong. Snori is right in that the physical souls are not the important part, but he is wrong in thinking that the chant is just physical sound. If this is like every other form of magic use than the real power is the thought-pattern which can become internalized which would explain why runes can be made without the chant while also explaining why when the soul is out of alignment the chant comes out wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I haven't changed the terms the argument ended.
I cannot think of any no evidence that will change your mind, except for soulcake dropping in an OOC WoG statement, therefore it is no longer worth discussing in order to convince you.

Instead I'm looking to see if theres evidence that would challenge my view that IC realisations like this can be taken at face value.
 
Dark as Silver said:
I haven't changed the terms the argument ended.
I cannot think of any no evidence that will change your mind, except for soulcake dropping in an OOC WoG statement, therefore it is no longer worth discussing in order to convince you.

Instead I'm looking to see if theres evidence that would challenge my view that IC realisations like this can be taken at face value.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I have no reasonable expectation that I could establish 'totally wrong' to your satisfaction even if I did take on the task of combing through a million words worth of quest looking for times Snori was wrong about magic somehow.
 
Last edited:
DragonParadox said:
I have no reasonable expectation that I could establish 'totally wrong' to your satisfaction even if I did take on the task of combing through a million words worth of quest looking for times Snori was wrong enough magic somehow.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Certainly, even mistaken will do. Honestly any degree of wrongness is fine for me as the purpose is to help me try and calibrate the degree to which we might be being mislead, in my own expectations.

You do not need to provide exact quotes, if you could say roughly where in a research tree, or the subject of the research or a broad time period and I'll look it up in my own time.
Again,
Dark as Silver said:
Instead I'm looking to see if theres evidence that would challenge my view that IC realisations like this can be taken at face value.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is for me not for you.
I'm not trying to debate bro you here, I just genuinely care about believing the right thing.
 
Last edited:
My thoughts:
Datapoint: The "Let song remind you" portion of the Runesmithing stuttered and failed.
Observation: Snorri a few paragraphs earlier noted that the chant was unnecessary.
Observation: Karstah's soul moved in time with her chant
Hypothesis: The function of the chant is to aid the Runesmith in keeping pace and rhythm. An experienced Runesmith (like Snorri) can bypass this limitation by keeping track mentally.

This data tracks with:
Datapoint: The Master Rune of Thungni's Brilliance provides temporary flares of intuition and comprehension when Runesmithing, occasionally bypassing the need to use reagents.
Theory: The components of the runesmithing process such as the use of reagents and chants are implicitly able to be overcome with superior understanding and knowledge of runesmithing.

Resulting Hypothesis: Karstah is not yet experienced enough to forgo the use of the chant to keep true pace and rhythm with Striking a Rune. Snorri's active observation that the chant was unnecessary disrupted the portion of the Runesmithing that Karstah was containing in the chant.

<Aside: Not too attached to this one. I don't think I see anything that wasn't already suspected.>
 
Dark as Silver said:
Certainly, even mistaken will do. Honestly any degree of wrongness is fine for me as the purpose is to help me try and calibrate the degree to which we might be being mislead, in my own expectations.

You do not need to provide exact quotes, if you could say roughly where in a research tree, or the subject of the research or a broad time period and I'll look it up in my own time.
Again,

This is for me not for you.
I'm not trying to debate bro you here, I just genuinely care about believing the right thing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Oh I see. I'll give it a look in the morning then, it's very late for me.

Just generally thought, I think it would be very odd in the spirit of scientific inquiry of the PoV character was never wrong and that knowledge rises as a perfectly smooth function of time. I just assume he can be wrong because he doing (magical) science and a big part of that process is being wrong so you can test your theories and refine them not just being right. It's possible that for stylistic reasons soulcake has made it so Snori is never wrong on screen to be fair.
 
Darkwood2027 said:
My thoughts:
Datapoint: The "Let song remind you" portion of the Runesmithing stuttered and failed.
Observation: Snorri a few paragraphs earlier noted that the chant was unnecessary.
Observation: Karstah's soul moved in time with her chant
Hypothesis: The function of the chant is to aid the Runesmith in keeping pace and rhythm. An experienced Runesmith (like Snorri) can bypass this limitation by keeping track mentally.

This data tracks with:
Datapoint: The Master Rune of Thungni's Brilliance provides temporary flares of intuition and comprehension when Runesmithing, occasionally bypassing the need to use reagents.
Theory: The components of the runesmithing process such as the use of reagents and chants are implicitly able to be overcome with superior understanding and knowledge of runesmithing.

Resulting Hypothesis: Karstah is not yet experienced enough to forgo the use of the chant to keep true pace and rhythm with Striking a Rune. Snorri's active observation that the chant was unnecessary disrupted the portion of the Runesmithing that Karstah was containing in the chant.

<Aside: Not too attached to this one. I don't think I see anything that wasn't already suspected.>
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

From the update:

soulcake said:
But why? You think it unlikely to be the chant itself, history has proven you do not need it, and Karstah is only doing so because you had asked her to.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This suggests that Karstah doesn't need the chant, if she's only doing it at Snorri's request.
 
Last edited:
If the chant is magical, but isn't directly acting on the Winds, I wonder if the chant could effectively be casting a spell on/resonating with the runesmith in a way that ensures their soul behaves in the desired way. An experienced runesmith can forgo the chant and manually control their soul after becoming familiar enough with what the spell does, but the chant could automate the process, like magically backed self hypnosis.

If so, what causes this failure could be Snorri's soul reacting to the chant and trying to do something. This could potentially be tested by Karstah forging the rune without the chant while Snorri observes (although it's not a perfect test).
 
A very hype update. I'm especially interested in understanding how the soul contributes to runesmithing. It would definitely account for a lot of the qualitative difference between the Ancestor Gods and the average runesmith.

soulcake said:
Karstah's hammer swings down just as she speaks, her body lagging behind her soul, the golden lines on her soul pulse and the Winds of Magic flicker and draw together a little more than before.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This line suggests to me that improvement in runesmithing requires either a synchronicity of body and soul or training of the soul. But that does lead to the question: how does Snorri learn to focus on his soul?
 
DragonParadox said:
Just generally thought, I think it would be very odd in the spirit of scientific inquiry of the PoV character was never wrong and that knowledge rises as a perfectly smooth function of time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
IRL? Yes thats true.
Does it mean that he is wrong about this specific point? No any more than anything else that you're not questioning.

Does the IRL pattern hold true in a quest? Not necessarily we aren't simulating IRL life. Could you suggest a strategy game that has a mechanic where sometimes research just fails for no reason, or you have to backtrack a significant part of the tree? It happens in a story perhaps like particularly detective ones or something but thats because the climax can be paced

Tinkerer said:
Yes, Snorri swore to return it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We would first need to learn where Albion is.
Alratan said:
I wonder if the chant could effectively be casting a spell on/resonating with the runesmith in a way that ensures their soul behaves in the desired way.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Dwarves and spells do not interact well.
soulcake said:
IF IT WAS A PROPER SPELLCASTING RITUAL YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN TURNED TO STONE.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
However its notable that you're describing a magical effect to accomplish what I'm saying is done by mundane vibes.
 
DragonParadox said:
It's strong circumstantial evidence. The dwarfs' ability to make runes, to speak in general and the particulars of their ancestral Khazalid would have been planned by the Old Ones. The fact that they happen to align, that is that they speak more archaic Khazalid when making runes also paralels other forms of magic.

There is no sensible reason to teach the dwarfs a magically reactive language, which ancestral Khazalid is, if you were not planning for them to shape magic with it and as far as we know the only magic (non-mutated) dwarfs can cast is Runesmithing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Language of the Old Ones is present in Runes i think. Not in the chant.

The chant is probably no more magical than some Reiklander singing the latest war ditty while marching off to die because some fuckhead Duke from Pavarron did an oopsie again.
 
apologies if someone else has mentioned this, but it seems like the simplest way to test if it's Rune DRM would be to have Karstah whack out a couple of super quick simple runes, like Stone, Strongarm, etc.
 
Sculpt0r said:
apologies if someone else has mentioned this, but it seems like the simplest way to test if it's Rune DRM would be to have Karstah whack out a couple of super quick simple runes, like Stone, Strongarm, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
or dare a member of the Burudin to try to complete a rune in his presence in exchange for a hint of what he is perfecting?
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top