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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Runesmith Lore is just not written down. It is passed on to the worthy or traded amongst peers.

For centuries, their is not gonna be any 'Runes' written down for everyone to see.

But Soul did say it can happen, but eventually.

In addition to the Rune of Kingship, one argument for Mind of Things is that it opens the possibility of Holocons far more secure than any book can ever be. But we aren't likely to get to that before Mobile Deep Magic, so I will rather invest heavily into Movement of Things for Deep Magic, which is far more likely to gain swift acceptance than Holocons.
 
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In the case of someone outside the building listening in, Obfuscation applies - as that is literally what Obfuscation is designed to do. In the case of someone casting their senses into the building, the rune of Fogginess should hamper their perceptions.

Like from my perspective the argument is trying to argue for two contradictory things at once, and is therefore unconvincing.

However, we have an easy source of clarification. @soulcake does Snorri think he has any runes that could hamper scrying or similar magic?

Back to the topic at hand I think that in the case of the anti-scrying runes, they invented them for power. Specificity in runes generates more powerful effects as a trend. See Piercing Sight from Snerra as another example.

From that thought I take the conclusion that we are not without scrying defenses at all. Simply more powerful specific ones, like the difference between a Spelleating and Spellturning rune. The main points you need to convince me on are their necessity (I am somewhat convinced here), and their urgency - that we can't put them in a small statue or carried items. And like, for that second one, we already know we can (albeit) slowly change the Services of Khazagar: taking some time to work up Wardstones as statues or carried items, seems entirely workable to add in and is far less arduous than changing an entire Service.

When they were initially created we already know they weren't used as Structural Static Runes, but instead as movable Talismanic or Banner runes. And it makes the most sense to me to use them in the use case they were designed for.

From my perspective, Obfuscation proves my point. Just as you need Obfuscation to fill one gap that Fogginess has, so we need the wardstones' rune to block scrying. They're different gaps in the defences that need to be filled.

My argument is that runes do what they're designed to do. They're not conceptual, except for Ancestor Runes, which these aren't. None of the runes you cite were developed by runesmiths to block scrying. They're designed to block physical intrusion and physical eavesdropping. The runesmiths who made them may not even have been aware that scrying was possible, as it's not a thing that previous enemies of the dwarves really had much access to, not being part of the normal repertoire of beastmen, even their shaman. The prophets of Hashut and Fimir sorcerers do.

Remember, up until the very end of the pre-Vortex period we weren't fighting daemon armies, so not even then would there have been the time or need to develop anti-scrying runes. Also, with the way chaos armies work, scrying would have made less of a difference,

Basically, if I'm right, we're leaving a small but very serious flaw in our defences that compromises the very purpose of the institution. If Thungni comes and takes a look and judges it inadequate because it's at risk of leaking secrets to magical scrying, trying to make an excuse that we were planning to patch the vulnerability at some undefined time later while leaving the security hole open until then is unlikely to satisfy him. And yes, this is a bit of a worst case scenario, but he's just told us that he'd going to be making a judgement on our results here. Him coming and taking a look at what precautions we think are most important and so built in from the start would be completely reasonable.

I think Thungni would be much more impressed that we have built in defence in depth against information leakage from scrying from the start, than say, preparations for an even more over the top figurehead gronti,

One is plugging a basic potential security hole to sensors compliance with the strictures around the secrecy of runelore that could be exploited from day one, the other is just reinforcing physical defences which weare already so incredibly strong there's no real prospect of them being defeated for centuries, in which time we will be further improving those defences.

As I say, the real danger of what we're trying here isn't physical conquest by an army the gronti can fight, it's espionage performed by enemy mages. Even if the place wa conquered there's almost certainly be time for failsafe self-destruct mechanisms to destroy any records that gave hints about runelore. Vulnerability to scrying is a persistent threat that we might not even notice if we fall victim to. And it's one that we need to make as strong as possible from the start. If we leave gaps or weaknesses then gradually improve it our enemies can try to develop their own capabilties based on what we know. Much better to put up a strong defence from the start.

Almost lastly, without examining the Wardstones and what they do that the other privacy runes don't, how would we know IC whether the current runes are sufficient to justify us being told OOC? The only indication we have is that Snorri knowing those runes didn't make the project redundant, or reduce the actions required for the project, and that existing privacy runes were inadequate to defend against the leakage of runelore in Dum, or to protect the surviving loyalists. In this, we should err on the side of caution, not just assume that existing defences that we have examples of not working will be certain to work here and the prior example was a special case.

And lastly, we have a special benefit from Valaya's insight for completing the Wardstone project, so we should expect that we'll get a particularly good result here. Generally, warding the runiversity should be one of the highest priorities, to justify why it's not an irresponsible thing to do. Getting a special bonus to warding things seems like a good way to do that, as it may spill over to better warding runes more generally if we're fortunate.

In addition to the Rune of Kingship, one argument for Mind of Things is that it opens the possibility of Holocorns far more secure than any book can ever be. But we aren't likely to get to that before Mobile Deep Magic, so I will rather invest heavily into Movement of Things for Deep Magic, which is far more likely to gain swift acceptance than Holocorns.

We also know that radical things that are built into the institution from the start are much more likely to gain acceptance than later additions.

Deep magic powered runes aren't at all radical, so aren't urgent.
 
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I do not think there is much danger of Thungi realizing that the place can be scryed, it's not like he is a wizard and there are no Runes of Scrying, that said I do think we should include those warding runes into the place, either with its inception or later.
 
Hmm, I bet that getting the Rune on the Wardstone could unlock a Rune Trade with Igna Metalheart.

That'd be a doozy. The Ogra of Armor.

We should probably compress Mountainsouled before we do that, as she'll love that :)
 
[X] [Name:] Wouldn't it be Hilarious…
- [X] Grim, The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
- [X] Okri, The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
- [X] Skalf, The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.

I'm not a fan of Izgrom, but it's whatever.
I do like the other two, so I am voting for this.
 
I do not think there is much danger of Thungi realizing that the place can be scryed, it's not like he is a wizard and there are no Runes of Scrying, that said I do think we should include those warding runes into the place, either with its inception or later.

After what happened at Dum I think Thungni would be well aware of the potential of scrying. I strongly suspect he's aware or gets informed of all newly created runes, so the creation of the anti-scrying runes on the Wardstones would be known to him.

Also, after news reached him of the chaos dwarves attempts to reproduce runecraft, I suspect he would have investigated further, and scrying on runesmiths would have been an obvious way the leakage of runelore could occur when combined with knowledge of the wardstones and why they were needed.

Basically,Thungni has told his descendants very, very few things about how to act and organise themselves. Mostly the runesmiths act based on inference from his silence and the fact that he's not objected to the ways his children chose to behave.

One of those very, very few things that he set as a commandment of his cult, is, I believe, that runelore must remain secret. That shows how important it is to him, and why he'd be very likely to be alert for both leakages of runelore and ways to guard against it.

Thus, when Thungni is judging the result of our work, one of the prime criteria I think he'll use is information security.

As I said in my previous post, building a giant gronti doesn't meaningfully help with that. Kraka Drakk is in no danger of being conquered, and even if it was it's very unlikely indeed the presence of the runiversity would lead to runelore being leaked.

However, as the only major centre for the discussion and dissemination of runelore in the world, it's likely to be a major target for espionage. Mundane espionage is hard and we have reasonably good defences against it between guards with runic gear and existing structural runes. However; the dwarves have very little experience with magical intelligence gathering, and in the one example we have of them, needed to invent new runes to deal with it.

Importantly, magical surveillance is a threat from day one, as soon as we establish the runiversity. Indeed, it's a threat right now, one we haven't addressed. There could be fimir sorceresses spying on the lessons we give on the prosthetic runes right now for all we know.

However, it becomes a bigger threat the more knowledge is being discussed and shared, as that makes it worthwhile for our enemies to spend more and more effort and resources on such spying. If we already have partially effective defences in the form of our existing runes, it encourages them to improve their spells and invest the resources to bypass them.

As a result, we want to shit them down as hard and fast from the start. We don't want to get into an arms race of surveillance and counter-surveillance or anything like that by giving opponents an initIap success. We want to lock this down by blocking scrying from the start. Then we get into stretch goals like being able to detect scrying attempts, but those are nice to haves.

The key thing here is that we need to demonstrate to Thungni that we've considered and taken all reasonable and some unreasonable counter-measures to potential information security threats. Not chosen not even to investigate one we're aware of and just assumed that existing runes probably designed for a different (if related) purpose will just work.

Edit: also; the way the statue of Thungni's eyes glow when Snorri is doing high energy runecrafting in his workshop makes me wonder if Thungni himself can scry as part of his divine power, and so he may be aware of the potential that way.
 
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From my perspective, Obfuscation proves my point. Just as you need Obfuscation to fill one gap that Fogginess has, so we need the wardstones' rune to block scrying. They're different gaps in the defences that need to be filled.

My argument is that runes do what they're designed to do. They're not conceptual, except for Ancestor Runes, which these aren't. None of the runes you cite were developed by runesmiths to block scrying. They're designed to block physical intrusion and physical eavesdropping. The runesmiths who made them may not even have been aware that scrying was possible, as it's not a thing that previous enemies of the dwarves really had much access to, not being part of the normal repertoire of beastmen, even their shaman. The prophets of Hashut and Fimir sorcerers do.

Remember, up until the very end of the pre-Vortex period we weren't fighting daemon armies, so not even then would there have been the time or need to develop anti-scrying runes. Also, with the way chaos armies work, scrying would have made less of a difference,

Basically, if I'm right, we're leaving a small but very serious flaw in our defences that compromises the very purpose of the institution. If Thungni comes and takes a look and judges it inadequate because it's at risk of leaking secrets to magical scrying, trying to make an excuse that we were planning to patch the vulnerability at some undefined time later while leaving the security hole open until then is unlikely to satisfy him. And yes, this is a bit of a worst case scenario, but he's just told us that he'd going to be making a judgement on our results here. Him coming and taking a look at what precautions we think are most important and so built in from the start would be completely reasonable.

I think Thungni would be much more impressed that we have built in defence in depth against information leakage from scrying from the start, than say, preparations for an even more over the top figurehead gronti,

One is plugging a basic potential security hole to sensors compliance with the strictures around the secrecy of runelore that could be exploited from day one, the other is just reinforcing physical defences which weare already so incredibly strong there's no real prospect of them being defeated for centuries, in which time we will be further improving those defences.

As I say, the real danger of what we're trying here isn't physical conquest by an army the gronti can fight, it's espionage performed by enemy mages. Even if the place wa conquered there's almost certainly be time for failsafe self-destruct mechanisms to destroy any records that gave hints about runelore. Vulnerability to scrying is a persistent threat that we might not even notice if we fall victim to. And it's one that we need to make as strong as possible from the start. If we leave gaps or weaknesses then gradually improve it our enemies can try to develop their own capabilties based on what we know. Much better to put up a strong defence from the start.

Almost lastly, without examining the Wardstones and what they do that the other privacy runes don't, how would we know IC whether the current runes are sufficient to justify us being told OOC? The only indication we have is that Snorri knowing those runes didn't make the project redundant, or reduce the actions required for the project, and that existing privacy runes were inadequate to defend against the leakage of runelore in Dum, or to protect the surviving loyalists. In this, we should err on the side of caution, not just assume that existing defences that we have examples of not working will be certain to work here and the prior example was a special case.

And lastly, we have a special benefit from Valaya's insight for completing the Wardstone project, so we should expect that we'll get a particularly good result here. Generally, warding the runiversity should be one of the highest priorities, to justify why it's not an irresponsible thing to do. Getting a special bonus to warding things seems like a good way to do that, as it may spill over to better warding runes more generally if we're fortunate.



We also know that radical things that are built into the institution from the start are much more likely to gain acceptance than later additions.

Deep magic powered runes aren't at all radical, so aren't urgent.

I get what you are trying to say here, but remember, if the existing measure are not sufficient, that means every runesmith is leaking runelore whenever he is teaching someone, or doing some runesmithing somewhere.

That seems like a very, very tall assumption, and also, probably not true as we don't see any but the Dawi-Zharr using runes in-Universe millenia into the future. And of course, Dawi-Zharr got their runelore the physical way rather than the divination way, too.

But I won't say it isn't a good idea, though.
 
However, we have an easy source of clarification. @soulcake does Snorri think he has any runes that could hamper scrying or similar magic?
I think the biggest difficulty we're likely to have here is that from Rune magic, dwarves are only likely to invent Runes that they'd think to use. So like the Rune of Betrayal, a Rune of Spying/Scrying probably doesn't exist or is very specific in its intention to track armies or such and isn't effective at stealing information.
These runes might constitute perfectly good defenses against what passes for dwarven scrying, however the fact that the wardstones are distinct and they weren't mostly recognisable to Snorri can mean a couple of things:
A) A more high powered version was needed to defend against Chaos Dwarf scrying.
B) The wardstones are actually doing something else in addition to anti scrying.

However I don't actually rate the risk of lost of Rune info to possible scrying as especially high, otherwise in canon it could have been lost by scrying workshops where masters where teaching apprentices. Its not going to be that much easier to scry on random campus rooms until you find two journeymen comparing notes than it is scrying on workshops until you find a lesson, and that lesson is more likely to cover the actual basics where you'd start at.
Either is is a genuine risk, however dwarves defend against it appropriately, or its not a risk or it is a risk and some elf wrote several books of observations but was never able to turn it into something useable.
 
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One thing I'd like to put forth in favor of using the Wardstones in statues and small items to be carried later is that, if someone is desperate/just that invested in snagging Runelore, one of the first things I'd imagine they'd try is to disrupt or damage the Wardstone runes. No guarantees they're successful of course, but if they are, I'd imagine performing maintenance on small runic statues dotted throughout the campus would be far, far easier than performing maintenance on runes directly built into the foundation of the university. It's like why irl security appliances are all smaller things easily repaired and replaced, some punk breaks it you immediately know something's wrong (which might be harder to notice if it's a big thing built into the foundations), and it's easier, cheaper, and probably just as effective.
 
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@soulcake does Snorri think he has any runes that could hamper scrying or similar magic?
Beyond their own anti magic the Runes they use as wards and for obfuscation I think you already mentioned, not really? When a system of observation uses something your presence naturally disrupts, Runes made for general anti-magic, and combos involving more mundane obfuscation, there wasn't impetus for a Rune dedicated to something so specific. The Dwarfs of Grom/Dum had to for a variety of reasons. #Runes #Mechanics
 
From my perspective, Obfuscation proves my point. Just as you need Obfuscation to fill one gap that Fogginess has, so we need the wardstones' rune to block scrying. They're different gaps in the defences that need to be filled.

My argument is that runes do what they're designed to do. They're not conceptual, except for Ancestor Runes, which these aren't. None of the runes you cite were developed by runesmiths to block scrying. They're designed to block physical intrusion and physical eavesdropping. The runesmiths who made them may not even have been aware that scrying was possible, as it's not a thing that previous enemies of the dwarves really had much access to, not being part of the normal repertoire of beastmen, even their shaman. The prophets of Hashut and Fimir sorcerers do.

Remember, up until the very end of the pre-Vortex period we weren't fighting daemon armies, so not even then would there have been the time or need to develop anti-scrying runes. Also, with the way chaos armies work, scrying would have made less of a difference,

Basically, if I'm right, we're leaving a small but very serious flaw in our defences that compromises the very purpose of the institution. If Thungni comes and takes a look and judges it inadequate because it's at risk of leaking secrets to magical scrying, trying to make an excuse that we were planning to patch the vulnerability at some undefined time later while leaving the security hole open until then is unlikely to satisfy him. And yes, this is a bit of a worst case scenario, but he's just told us that he'd going to be making a judgement on our results here. Him coming and taking a look at what precautions we think are most important and so built in from the start would be completely reasonable.

I think Thungni would be much more impressed that we have built in defence in depth against information leakage from scrying from the start, than say, preparations for an even more over the top figurehead gronti,

One is plugging a basic potential security hole to sensors compliance with the strictures around the secrecy of runelore that could be exploited from day one, the other is just reinforcing physical defences which weare already so incredibly strong there's no real prospect of them being defeated for centuries, in which time we will be further improving those defences.

As I say, the real danger of what we're trying here isn't physical conquest by an army the gronti can fight, it's espionage performed by enemy mages. Even if the place wa conquered there's almost certainly be time for failsafe self-destruct mechanisms to destroy any records that gave hints about runelore. Vulnerability to scrying is a persistent threat that we might not even notice if we fall victim to. And it's one that we need to make as strong as possible from the start. If we leave gaps or weaknesses then gradually improve it our enemies can try to develop their own capabilties based on what we know. Much better to put up a strong defence from the start.

Almost lastly, without examining the Wardstones and what they do that the other privacy runes don't, how would we know IC whether the current runes are sufficient to justify us being told OOC? The only indication we have is that Snorri knowing those runes didn't make the project redundant, or reduce the actions required for the project, and that existing privacy runes were inadequate to defend against the leakage of runelore in Dum, or to protect the surviving loyalists. In this, we should err on the side of caution, not just assume that existing defences that we have examples of not working will be certain to work here and the prior example was a special case.

And lastly, we have a special benefit from Valaya's insight for completing the Wardstone project, so we should expect that we'll get a particularly good result here. Generally, warding the runiversity should be one of the highest priorities, to justify why it's not an irresponsible thing to do. Getting a special bonus to warding things seems like a good way to do that, as it may spill over to better warding runes more generally if we're fortunate.



We also know that radical things that are built into the institution from the start are much more likely to gain acceptance than later additions.

Deep magic powered runes aren't at all radical, so aren't urgent.
I agree that Runes do what they are designed to do. However, I disagree with you on what is within the capabilities of the Rune of Fogginess. As I understand it, a common kind of Scrying is sending one's perceptions to the target location, and so the caster's perceptions are now in the room and thus in the range of being hampered by Fogginess. This isn't a metaphorical or conceptual take on what the rune does from my perspective, simply Runes interaction with Magic.

With that said, in the interest of not wasting both of our time with nitpicky back and forth, I think we should let this specific part of the topic rest until Soul can answer my questions (I added one about the specific Rune of Fogginess and its interactions with scrying as well).

Instead I have a question: What turn do you want to do Wardstone Research? Understand that over the course of turn 49, 50, and 51 we need to spend 7 actions into Movement Part 6 to get Static Siphoning. Which as a structural rune we're going to want to put down as part of the original arrays of the building, especially the largest and thus most powerful and effective versions of Siphoning.

We also need to finish Akazit next turn, as many wish to do it, and having the first part completed will help us understand how planning around it must go in the future. Whatever rewards we get out of it will also likely help our Rune Metal progress along, one of our more important research meta-arcs.

We also have the dragon actions pulling at our time. Its unclear precisely what that may be, but a small (prolly 2 to 4 action) Menlinwen project is quite likely or an action tax for a few turns.

We're looking at having a total of 15 actions across turns 49, 50, and 51. Seven of those need to be committed in one of a handful of patterns to complete Movement 6.

Wardstones costs 2. Mind 5 costs 2. Akazit costs around 2. Dragon Care probably costs between 2 and 4 as a rough estimate. If we max everything out we have a total of 17 actions required to get all of these done. We can just squeeze it in if Dragon Care is 2 actions, meaning the total comes exactly to 15.

In essence it is possible to do all of these things, at least in theory, so with our current limits laid out I return to my original question.

Beyond their own anti magic the Runes they use as wards and for obfuscation I think you already mentioned, not really? When a system of observation uses something your presence naturally disrupts, Runes made for general anti-magic, and combos involving more mundane obfuscation, there wasn't impetus for a Rune dedicated to something so specific. The Dwarfs of Grom/Dum had to for a variety of reasons. #Runes #Mechanics
Thank you, and good to know!

I think the biggest difficulty we're likely to have here is that from Rune magic, dwarves are only likely to invent Runes that they'd think to use. So like the Rune of Betrayal, a Rune of Spying/Scrying probably doesn't exist or is very specific in its intention to track armies or such and isn't effective at stealing information.
These runes might constitute perfectly good defenses against what passes for dwarven scrying, however the fact that the wardstones are distinct and they weren't mostly recognisable to Snorri can mean a couple of things:
A) A more high powered version was needed to defend against Chaos Dwarf scrying.
B) The wardstones are actually doing something else in addition to anti scrying.

However I don't actually rate the risk of lost of Rune info to possible scrying as especially high, otherwise in canon it could have been lost by scrying workshops where masters where teaching apprentices. Its not going to be that much easier to scry on random campus rooms until you find two journeymen comparing notes than it is scrying on workshops until you find a lesson, and that lesson is more likely to cover the actual basics where you'd start at.
Either is is a genuine risk, however dwarves defend against it appropriately, or its not a risk or it is a risk and some elf wrote several books of observations but was never able to turn it into something useable.
Yeah. I did also forget a relevant rune here: Spellveiling.

Rune of Spellveiling:
Weapon: Restricts visibility to magical senses, appears mundane if no Master Rune
Talisman: As with Weapon, but also applies to contents in container

The weapon version is Future, as is the Master Rune version, but we do know the Talismanic form. We also know from looking at the other structural runes that the Structural category has runes apply their effects either to a room and its contents, or to a wide area around a statue or similar edifice.

Logically then, the Rune of Spellveiling on a structure should restrict visibility to magical senses of any contents or persons within a room it is inscribed within.
 
We also know that radical things that are built into the institution from the start are much more likely to gain acceptance than later additions.

Deep magic powered runes aren't at all radical, so aren't urgent.

I did crunch the math, and while completing the Mind of Things 5 is trivial, getting to Mind of Things 6 by the end of Turn 51 is difficult.

Here's the explanation:

Mind of Things Part 5: 2 Progress to Completion
Mind of Things Part 6: 16 Progress to Completion (Based on Movement of Things Part 6)
With Master of the Odd, every 2 actions results in 3 progress, every 3 actions yields 5 progress.

With 3 turns (49, 50, 51):
5 Actions = 8 Progress
3 Actions = 5 Progreess
3 Actions = 5 Progress

Given we are currently committed to completing other projects, I am not sure whether there are even the actions to spare to do more than get to Mind of Things Part 5.

That being said, I think even a proof of concept Holocon in our library right from the start containing publically available non Runelore knowledge that any Journeyman is welcome to study to help them in their journeys, will pave the way for Snorri in the future creating a library not of books, but Holocons, because Holocons have been part of the library from the start. The question is whether Mind of Things 5 will give us such a proof of concept.

We're looking at having a total of 15 actions across turns 49, 50, and 51. Seven of those need to be committed in one of a handful of patterns to complete Movement 6.

Wardstones costs 2. Mind 5 costs 2. Akazit costs around 2. Dragon Care probably costs between 2 and 4 as a rough estimate. If we max everything out we have a total of 17 actions required to get all of these done. We can just squeeze it in if Dragon Care is 2 actions, meaning the total comes exactly to 15.

Movement 6's math is actually straightforward since only 11 progress is needed.

1-3-3 Action investments will net us Movement 6 (1 +5 +5 Progress). This is, if I am not mistaken, the most action efficient investment, disregarding Movement 7.

Here's a radical thought: the earliest completion date of a Wonderful Endeavor is Turn 52, but nothing tells us we need to finish it that turn. Could it be possible to delay the big push to Turn 53? Because this should give us more than enough space to push for Mind + Movement + Wardstones in addition to Akazit and Dragon Care. It also gives us more space to pace our retainer + heir actions accordingly to hit the sweet 1 progress before completion before Snorri slams 5 actions implementing the fruits of his research.
 
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[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
Movement 6's math is actually straightforward since only 11 progress is needed.
1-3-3 Action investments will net us Movement 6 (1 +5 +5 Progress).

Here's a radical thought: the earliest completion date of a Wonderful Endeavor is Turn 52, but nothing tells us we need to finish it that turn. Could it be possible to delay the big push to Turn 53?
Yes, it is. I talked about it in thread before during a discussion with Dark as Silver.

I made a statement in that conversation where I said that if the Dragonets cause us to only have 4 actions on turn 52, it might be best to delay until turn 53 or 54. However, that came with a big caveat that I'd only accept such a delay in a situation where the dragons would only be an action tax up to turn 54ish. If it extended beyond turn 53 or 54 I figured it wasn't worth it to delay.

That's only become more prominent now that Vragni is working on his own megaproject, cause I want to finish before him.
 
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Here's a radical thought: the earliest completion date of a Wonderful Endeavor is Turn 52, but nothing tells us we need to finish it that turn. Could it be possible to delay the big push to Turn 53? Because this should give us more than enough space to push for Mind + Movement + Wardstones in addition to Akazit and Dragon Care. It also gives us more space to pace our retainer + heir actions accordingly to hit the sweet 1 progress before completion before Snorri slams 5 actions implementing the fruits of his research.
I think we established over the last vote that Bungies plan at least is, depending on the time taken to train dragons and effort that needs to be committed, to delay completing the Campus until a full free 5 action turn is available or turn 58 at which point we just get it done with 4.
E: Ninjad while I was quote hunting, either Bungie changed their mind since that discussion and altered the timeline or mistyped. E:E: Or I just misunderstood :thonk:
I figure its going to be a drip of actions as well. What I mean is that if the dragons reduce us to 4 actions for a period of time, and that period of time extends into turn 52, we can just push back the completion of the university until we get 5 actions again.

However, I do have a limit to my patience. If the action drain exists until turn 58 or 59, then I'm just going to put 4 actions into Khazagar when its set up for the overflow and call it a day.

I expect that if a delay of the campus is needed, it will only be to turn 53 or 54. 50 or 60 years (from this turn to the end of turn 52 or turn 53) for three solitary hyper predators to reach relative independence and cease to be a drain on our action resources seems reasonable enough to me. It takes 80 years to train a single apprentice and 12 to raise three apprentices, and I seriously doubt that any argument that raising three dragonlings is as complicated as teaching a beardling the sacred art of runesmithing holds much water.
 
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I think we established over the last vote that Bungies plan at least is, depending on the time taken to train dragons and effort that needs to be committed, to delay completing the Campus until a full free 5 action turn is available or turn 58 at which point we just get it done with 4.
E: Ninjad while I was quote hunting, either Bungie changed their mind since that discussion and altered the timeline or mistyped.
Sorry I wasn't clear then, you misunderstood this specific line: "However, I do have a limit to my patience. If the action drain exists until turn 58 or 59, then I'm just going to put 4 actions into Khazagar when its set up for the overflow and call it a day."

What I meant was this: "However, I do have a limit to my patience. If the action drain exists until turn 58 or 59, then I'm just going to put 4 actions into Khazagar on turn 52 when its set up for the overflow and call it a day."

Bolded my clarification. I don't want to delay it to turn 58 for any reason.

E: I did mistype a little bit in my earlier post though, so thanks for pointing that out.
 
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Sorry I wasn't clear then, you misunderstood this specific line: "However, I do have a limit to my patience. If the action drain exists until turn 58 or 59, then I'm just going to put 4 actions into Khazagar when its set up for the overflow and call it a day."

What I meant was this: "However, I do have a limit to my patience. If the action drain exists until turn 58 or 59, then I'm just going to put 4 actions into Khazagar on turn 52 when its set up for the overflow and call it a day."

Bolded my clarification. I don't want to delay it to turn 58 for any reason.
Ah, I was working on the assumption that we're probably not going to have a countdown timer for how long the dragon drain will take. Unlike apprentices, where we can have expectations of how quickly they'll learn because we've done it before, raising dragons is truely unknown territory.
Snorri didn't know what a baby dragon looked like, unless they have growth rings in their bones or something he doesn't seem to have anything to go off of.
 
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[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izklad (Copper Clad), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
Ah, I was working on the assumption that we're probably not going to have a countdown timer for how long the dragon drain will take. Unlike apprentices, where we can have expectations of how quickly they'll learn because we've done it before, raising dragons is truely unknown territory.
Snorri didn't know what a baby dragon looked like, unless they have growth rings in their bones or something he doesn't seem to have anything to go off of.
Good shout for that, though he did get that book on the Life of Dragons, dictated by a dragon and has Menlinwen so he might be able to make an estimate.

Also as a piece of information relevant to their rate of maturity in general, we know that Debra appeared on turn 24 and then on turn 27 her adult children appeared. Its unclear if they were around before turn 24, seeing as they were spawned in/randomly generated from a trashtastic hunting roll, but it is a piece of info I think you should have in mind for your own time estimates.

1-3-3 Action investments will net us Movement 6 (1 +5 +5 Progress). This is, if I am not mistaken, the most action efficient investment, disregarding Movement 7.
I think it is, but a 3-2-2 arrangement, or some other pattern of two 2s and one 3, may be easier to fit around other projects especially if the Dragon Care manifests as an action tax.

Regarding the current vote on the names.

I've been thinking it over and while my original idea of Izklad has a good sound and mouthfeel, it doesn't fit the pattern of the other two names. Izklad is a singular concept - the dragon is copper clad. Its spines are not coppery, being more like fresh beaten gromril, but its eyes have copper flecks and lines of silver inside them. That's a misalignment of the name to the recipient.

Izgrom also has a good mouthfeel to me and sounds good to my ear. Saying it feels similar to Zharrok and Grimgal, heavier names. Furthermore it establishes a pattern for all three siblings - they are named after a material connected to their bodies, and after a virtuous concept for them to live up to. As a thematic statement I think the pattern of Izgrom, Zharrok, and Grimgal works better than the pattern of Izklad, Zharrok, and Grimgal does.
 
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Good shout for that, though he did get that book on the Life of Dragons, dictated by a dragon and has Menlinwen so he might be able to make an estimate.

Also as a piece of information relevant to their rate of maturity in general, we know that Debra appeared on turn 24 and then on turn 27 her adult children appeared. Its unclear if they were around before turn 24, seeing as they were spawned in/randomly generated from a trashtastic hunting roll, but it is a piece of info I think you should have in mind for your own time estimates.
However by your own estimates, they must have been an independent hunting age by the time Debra died or else they didn't need to eat for 30 years. So thats more like 30 years + an uncertain amount between they felt independent and when they felt confident that they could stomp around and dwarves couldn't do shit.
I really need to look this up. I thought Debra appeared several turns before the fight and spent that time rolling for if the fight would happen. Infact I know that happened because the big spike pillar was setup ahead of time, I just don't know how long it was. If so that would make a neat 50 years between Debra migrating into the area (presumably laying and hatching) and the kids becoming relevant. With the children being intelligent enough to hunt on their own at 20. Which honestly even if not sapient yet, is ahead of even your expected timeline.
 
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On second thought I do not think scrying is that much of a concern. To get information from a place far off to the caster you need line of effect, which means you need some kind of flow of magic. Azyr, the Wind of Prophecy is even called out as flowing backwards in time which is all well and good if you want to foresee, but to farsee you have to get the magic from Point A to Point B and when Point A is 'around hundreds of master Runesmiths and multiple runelords' I think we are in the clear or at least as much in the clear as it is reasonable to be.

Could some Tzeenchian genius bending all the dark gifts of their God still see in? I'm not going to say definitely not, but I do not think they would be able to do so consistently and over a long enough period of time to get meaningful information, not least because if they could do that they would have done it already. Snori's present workshop, the one where people are sleeping on the floor of the storeroom, that does not have runes of warding and neither does any other runesmith workshop in the whole of the Karaz Ankor.
 
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