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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Thinking about ways to ensure that we do as good a job as possible on the runiversity, I think we want to complete Wardstone research before we spend a turn full of Snorri's actions on it.

One of the worst ways this could fail is if enemies could magically scry on the place and listen in on runesmiths discussing runelore.

Now, other runesmiths may know of anti-scrying runes, but seeing as this is Snorri's project this doesn't matter, as he won't commission another runesmith to do what he can't.

In conclusion, we need to have completed Wardstones before Snorri gets around to installing the runic arrays on the place, otherwise there's unlikely to be space for them.

There's also a (small) chance that Thungni will come and inspect the physical infrastructure for flaws or potential failure modes like this, rather than having to wait for them to happen.

I'd prefer to get Wardstones (and possibly Mind of Things for the library holocrons) done in advance for this reason as well, so we'd have our keep infrastructure and defences installed.

Are there any other key research projects that are needed to secure or otherwise make the runiversity successful people can see?

I understand that the capstone project can be completed later and separately
We have the:

Rune of FogginessAllRuneInduces a fog that messes with perception and senses of intruders, multiple copies strengthen effect
Rune of Gazul's FlameAllRuneGenerates a field of burning flame that deals extra damage to daemons around or in a structure
Rune of ObfuscationAllRuneMuffles and distorts the words spoken by those in the room for those outside and instills a desire to leave the vicinity
Rune of the Hidden DoorAllRuneDoors and entrances are made invisible/unnoticed to mundane vision, only slightly obfuscates against magic, multiple copies increases potency
Rune of Singular PathAllRuneDoors to structure or room are seen as only openable in one direction by enemies
Rune of SecurityAllRuneReinforces door hinges and locks against tampering

For the sake of creating a variety of private speaking rooms, so I don't think Wardstone is necessary to do before we make it. Also, if we happen to do Wardstone after its completion, I figure we can just build some warding stones as little statues in Snorri's off time, as they contain regular runes.

The primary thing that must be completed is Movement of Things Part 6 so that we have Static Siphoning, because festooning the place with runes of Siphoning is a good idea and there's another idea floating around to build a truly massive Siphoning rune beneath it in secret depths for the sake of more boosts to Runes. Also Static Siphoning in the lair of the capstone gronti.

As for the names. Had an alternative idea @Talon TigerDino @MoonSerpent. Izdok I feel reads more like an Orc name like: that one over there, Boss IzDok! This does mean it is kinda funny, but also doesn't fit to my ear.

[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.

Izgrom however is drawing on Kraka Grom and the idea of bravery and defiance against a world that wishes to kill you, to be tough and hardy enough to survive it. So a name based on a color that is a part of it, and a statement on what we hope it can achieve: bravery.

Also it fits with its sibling's names, who all also have a sort of emotional component: one for cunning, one for unyieldingness, both qualities dwarves favor and find virtuous. Grom is another of those, so there's a thematic line up for these three. Bravery, Cunning, Unyieldingess.
 
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[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.

Changing the vote as per suggestion.
 
For the sake of creating a variety of private speaking rooms, so I don't think Wardstone is necessary to do before we make it. Also, if we happen to do Wardstone after its completion, I figure we can just build some warding stones as little statues in Snorri's off time, as they contain regular runes.

I don't think any of those runes do anything to scrying that allows you to listen as if you're in the room. A fimir or chaos dwarf sorcerer isn't going to be blocked by them.

They're good at preventing physical infiltration. They're simply not designed to prevent magical scrying.

We can be pretty confident scrying is a different problem that requires a different solution, as that's the entire reason the runesmiths of Dum invented the Wardstones in the first place.

I think you're potentially leaving a small but critical gap in the defences, and a gap that IC Snorri would reasonably be expected to be aware of, and so can be faulted for leaving open.

The runiversity is critical enough infrastructure that we need to cover as many angles of attack as we can think of. Frankly, the gronti is less important than covering all the basics, of which anti-scrying defences are one.
 
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I don't think any of those runes do anything to scrying that allows you to listen as if you're in the room. A fimir or chaos dwarf sorcerer isn't going to be blocked by them.

They're good at preventing physical infiltration. They're simply not designed to prevent magical scrying.

We can be pretty confident scrying is a different problem that requires a different solution, as that's the entire reason the runesmiths of Dum invented the Wardstones in the first place.
*points at the Rune of Fogginess*

I'm pretty sure the scrying senses/magic of a chaos entity counts as intruder/intrusion.
 
[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
*points at the Rune of Fogginess*

I'm pretty sure the scrying senses/magic of a chaos entity counts as intruder/intrusion.

Why would it? They're not an intruder. They're not inside the building. And Fimir and sorcerers may be aligned with chaos but they're not chaos entities.

They're simply watching/listening from a direction we can't usually perceive, that we don't have a wall blocking, which presumably is what the Wardstones do.

Similarly, I don't think the rune of foggniness would stop someone standing outside a building who had very good hearing from being able to listen to a conversation inside.

Runes do what they say they do, that's it.

If these runes did work for this, the runesmiths of Dum wouldn't have needed to invent specific anti-scrying runes.

Wardstone research isn't that expensive and can be useful for other things like protecting the Waystones, and without taking the action we're unlikely to know whether the runes we know would have been sufficient.
 
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From their description, we know Wardstones are modular. So we could always add them later, I guess? Runes of siphoning might even help making them work better.
 
[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.

Izgrom however is drawing on Kraka Grom and the idea of bravery and defiance against a world that wishes to kill you, to be tough and hardy enough to survive it. So a name based on a color that is a part of it, and a statement on what we hope it can achieve: bravery.

Also it fits with its sibling's names, who all also have a sort of emotional component: one for cunning, one for unyieldingness, both qualities dwarves favor and find virtuous. Grom is another of those, so there's a thematic line up for these three. Bravery, Cunning, Unyieldingess.

What is your read on the alignment of the third? Unyielding sounds like a mismatch if my assumption of Ulgu is correct. Though maybe in a cute ironic way.
 
What is your read on the alignment of the third? Unyielding sounds like a mismatch if my assumption of Ulgu is correct. Though maybe in a cute ironic way.
Chamon, due to this specific line in the update.

eyes that seemed to shift from the solid gold of its siblings to glowing, molten, metal on occasion.
It reminds me of this from the Chamon Incarnates we saw.

These beings of Chamon shift and change like molten metal;
They walk and stalk around the Runelord, curious and unassuming. Fourheads tilting and contorting at impossible angles to watch him and his work. One looks where it not ought to have and is blinded by the Glittering One's work for its trouble. It wordlessly screeches in pain, golden tears leaking from its 42 eyes and a forest of blades rising from its form like a hedgehog
With a wordless scream its body erupts into a tornado of blades, gushing molten metal it leaps in a perfect arc onto the Aqshy Elemental. A mirror to the metaphysical clash they represent.

The other possible alignment for the largest sibling might be Hysh, but I find it doubtful given the explicit connection to Molten Metal, and the nature of the anvil and what we did upon it being strongly associated with Chamon, Aqshy, and the Deep Magic.
 
[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izklad (Copper Clad), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[] Gronguz (Giant Eater), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
From their description, we know Wardstones are modular. So we could always add them later, I guess? Runes of siphoning might even help making them work better.

They're likely to work better as structural runes, I feel.

More than that, they're not some semi-optional extra like the capstone project that can be added later. They're integral to the very function of the building.

We want to establish a place where an unprecedented amount of sharing of the secrets of runelore will happen. To justify this, we need to ensure that it has an unprecedented level of protection against entities that might want to steal those secrets.

Building our anti-scrying wardstones is a demonstration that we're doing that, rather than doing what Vragni says and focusing our efforts on extravagant pet vanity projects.

Dwarves believe in defence in depth and redundancy, and nowhere should we be more keen to demonstrate that than when it comes to defending the secrets of runelore. If some of our existing defensive runes stack their benefits with anti-scrying runes, great, our defences are even better, but if they don't, then we've knowingly left a critical flaw in our information security.

We know of one time when dwarves have really had to deal with a serious threat of scrying, in Dum, and we know they didn't rely on existing runes but needed something new. Let's not ignore the lessons they learned in blood.

This is about demonstrating we're serious about what we're trying to do, and that this project is about safely sharing runelore, not self-aggrandisement.

The big threat of this project to the security of runelore isn't about the building being physically captured in a way a giant gronti could defend against. It's about espionage and magical surveillance allowing enemy magic users to steal secrets as they're discussed or recorded.
 
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They're likely to work better as structural runes, I feel.

More than that, they're not some semi-optional extra like the capstone project that can be added later. They're integral to the very function of the building.

We want to establish a place where an unprecedented amount of sharing of the secrets of runelore will happen. To justify this, we need to ensure that it has an unprecedented level of protection against entities that might want to steal those secrets.

Building our anti-scrying wardstones is a demonstration that we're doing that, rather than doing what Vragni says and focusing our efforts on extravagant pet vanity projects.

Dwarves believe in defence in depth and redundancy, and nowhere should we be more keen to demonstrate that than when it comes to defending the secrets of runelore. If some of our existing defensive runes stack their benefits with anti-scrying runes, great, our defences are even better, but if they don't, then we've knowingly left a critical flaw in our information security.

We know of one time when dwarves have really had to deal with a serious threat of scrying, in Dum, and we know they didn't rely on existing runes but needed something new. Let's not ignore the lessons they learned in blood.

This is about demonstrating we're serious about what we're trying to do, and that this project is about safely sharing runelore, not self-aggrandisement.

The big threat of this project to the security of runelore isn't about the building being physically captured in a way a giant gronti could defend against. It's about espionage and magical surveillance allowing enemy magic users to steal secrets as they're discussed or recorded.

Well, can't say you don't make sense. Prolly a good idea to do that, then, huh?

Prolly have to sit down and check what all researches can give us a bonus and finish by Turn 51, so we can add them to our final overload...
 
[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.

Don't care for any of the names for the flame like one so far, but also don't think any new vote is gonna win against it.
 
Elders all have Gromril weapons and are likelier to have Gromril talismans and bits of Gromril armour, either gotten or inherited from the people who were there during Arm Them and the Siege. Its spottier with younger warriors. Funnily enough Runes are far more common than Gromril because of...well you and what you inspired.
Full Gromril armour is reserved for elites or the very rich. So Thanes, Guildmasters, the Huskarls, your retainers. No you can't give them all Gromril Armour. #Culture
so for your rune academy. will there be different room/levels that a dwarf can access once they reach a certain level of skill were they get access to runes equal to there skill.

example apprentices have a hall were they can hang out as well a wall full of runes that they should be able to make with there current level of skill.
and next to the rune is the name of the runesmith that invented that rune (this encourages competition and braging rights depending on the number of rune a master can add to the wall)

(congratulations so ans so to the hall of masters over there we can have beer and debate and over there is the rune wall a font of knowledge all known master-level rune are available for you to study and if you invent a new one you may if you want to add yur rune and name to the wall)
 
Thinking some more the dragon gronti, we probably don't need runes of siphoning throughout the building to charge that. If we want something like that then building a plinth/launch pad/nest/lair for the gronti to stand on when at rest is probably sufficient. Make that plinth into a structure with a triple rune of siphoning or similar; and it should be fine.

That can be completed after and separate to the rest of the structure, unlike warding runes that should be present throughout the building as part of the arrays of runes on the rooms.

Long term, is we ever learn how to do it, we could do something like upgrade the plinth into a Waystone.
 
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Chamon, due to this specific line in the update.


It reminds me of this from the Chamon Incarnates we saw.





The other possible alignment for the largest sibling might be Hysh, but I find it doubtful given the explicit connection to Molten Metal, and the nature of the anvil and what we did upon it being strongly associated with Chamon, Aqshy, and the Deep Magic.

Fair, the link to the elemental makes sense. I assumed that the first was Chamon, but I guess they could be Deep-flavoured instead.

The meta-stuff we know thanks to the rolling doesn't fit that well with your interpretation, though. We know there was a fourth possible alignment so it's not limited to just those three anvil-associated possibilities. 'Tangible as Truth' also isn't very Chamon.
 
[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
Why would it? They're not an intruder. They're not inside the building. And Fimir and sorcerers may be aligned with chaos but they're not chaos entities.

They're simply watching/listening from a direction we can't usually perceive, that we don't have a wall blocking, which presumably is what the Wardstones do.

Similarly, I don't think the rune of foggniness would stop someone standing outside a building who had very good hearing from being able to listen to a conversation inside.

Runes do what they say they do, that's it.

If these runes did work for this, the runesmiths of Dum wouldn't have needed to invent specific anti-scrying runes.

Wardstone research isn't that expensive and can be useful for other things like protecting the Waystones, and without taking the action we're unlikely to know whether the runes we know would have been sufficient.
In the case of someone outside the building listening in, Obfuscation applies - as that is literally what Obfuscation is designed to do. In the case of someone casting their senses into the building, the rune of Fogginess should hamper their perceptions.

Like from my perspective the argument is trying to argue for two contradictory things at once, and is therefore unconvincing.

However, we have an easy source of clarification. @soulcake does Snorri think he has any runes that could hamper scrying or similar magic?

In the same vein, what does Snorri think would happen if a target tried to scry into a room with the Rune of Fogginess in that room?

Back to the topic at hand I think that in the case of the anti-scrying runes, they invented them for power. Specificity in runes generates more powerful effects as a trend. See Piercing Sight from Snerra as another example.

From that thought I take the conclusion that we are not without scrying defenses at all. Simply more powerful specific ones, like the difference between a Spelleating and Spellturning rune. The main points you need to convince me on are their necessity (I am somewhat convinced here), and their urgency - that we can't put them in a small statue or carried items. And like, for that second one, we already know we can (albeit) slowly change the Services of Khazagar: taking some time to work up Wardstones as statues or carried items, seems entirely workable to add in and is far less arduous than changing an entire Service.

When they were initially created we already know they weren't used as Structural Static Runes, but instead as movable Talismanic or Banner runes. And it makes the most sense to me to use them in the use case they were designed for.

Fair, the link to the elemental makes sense. I assumed that the first was Chamon, but I guess they could be Deep-flavoured instead.

The meta-stuff we know thanks to the rolling doesn't fit that well with your interpretation, though. We know there was a fourth possible alignment so it's not limited to just those three anvil-associated possibilities. 'Tangible as Truth' also isn't very Chamon.
Which is where the possible Hysh alignment for the Big Number Three dragonet comes from. Truth is strongly associated with Hysh.
 
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[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
example apprentices have a hall were they can hang out as well a wall full of runes that they should be able to make with there current level of skill.
and next to the rune is the name of the runesmith that invented that rune (this encourages competition and braging rights depending on the number of rune a master can add to the wall)

Runesmith Lore is just not written down. It is passed on to the worthy or traded amongst peers.
For centuries, their is not gonna be any 'Runes' written down for everyone to see.
But Soul did say it can happen, but eventually.

Thinking some more the dragon gronti, we probably don't need runes of siphoning throughout the building to charge that. If we want something like that then building a plinth/launch pad/nest/lair for the gronti to stand on when at rest is probably sufficient. Make that plinth into a structure with a triple rune of siphoning or similar; and it should be fine.

That can be completed after and separate to the rest of the structure, unlike warding runes that should be present throughout the building as part of the arrays of runes on the rooms.

Long term, is we ever learn how to do it, we could do something like upgrade the plinth into a Waystone.

All depends on how the results of Movement of Things comes out, I guess. if we get a powerful structural rune, well and good. Or if we have a weaker movable one, prolly better...
 
[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
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[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izklad (Copper Clad), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.
 
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