RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Alratan]

If they have that kind of divination their payoff isn't reduced at all, unless every runesmith never talks about runecraft outside of defensive anti scrying measures... Because if they ever do it will have been divined and the enemy will be scrying.

Do you see the problem??? You've created an opponent who is so impossibly competent that nothing we can do realistically can oppose them.

Its worse than I thought it was before. They can effectively spy on every single runesmith across the whole of the KA.

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No I haven't. The payoff has to be worth it, and aiming scrying at the runiversity has a greater payoff than at random workshops. If the runiversity is doing nothing different to what's already happening in existing workshops, it's a waste of our time and effort.

Scrying is not going to be free for the casters. Using divination to predict good places to look is not going to be free, they'll almost certainly need to set parameters to localise their search for potential futures, and knowing which place to look should make it much easier as it's a smaller search space.

Your argument is the same as saying that you don't need to shield the CIA headquarters against electronic eavesdropping because adversaries can just surveill agents in the field. Yes, you can do the later, but you can do the former much easier and with a much bigger payoff if it's not protected.

This can't be understated too.

Psychologically, Snorri having to do patch jobs on the power grid as Altratan is effectively proposing is probably going to weigh on him, if he doesn't future-proof it as hard as he can.

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We've had massive armies of dwarves with tens or perhaps even hundreds of thousands of runes on single battlefields without this causing an issue, so I can't believe it will be a problem.

 

[DragonParadox]

No I haven't. The payoff has to be worth it, and aiming scrying at the runiversity has a greater payoff than at random workshops. If the runiversity is doing nothing different to what's already happening in existing workshops, it's a waste of our time and effort.

Scrying is not going to be free for the casters. Using divination to predict good places to look is not going to be free, they'll almost certainly need to set parameters to localise their search for potential futures, and knowing which place to look should make it much easier as it's a smaller search space.

Your argument is the same as saying that you don't need to shield the CIA headquarters against electronic eavesdropping because adversaries can just surveill agents in the field. Yes, you can do the later, but you can do the former much easier and with a much bigger payoff if it's not protected.

Click to shrink...

But this isn't the CIA headquarters, it is the the MIT Campus and if the enemy learns basic calculus that is the lose condition. It is not that the dwarfs are fine with Chorfs knowing the Rune of Fire as long as they don't learn the Master Rune of Thungi, any rune lost is utter and unspeakable shame so we would have to posit that they would only aim for the advanced stuff for some reason and that does not make sense to me.

 

[Dark as Silver]

No I haven't. The payoff has to be worth it, and aiming scrying at the runiversity has a greater payoff than at random workshops. If the runiversity is doing nothing different to what's already happening in existing workshops, it's a waste of our time and effort.

Scrying is not going to be free for the casters. Using divination to predict good places to look is not going to be free, they'll almost certainly need to set parameters to localise their search for potential futures, and knowing which place to look should make it much easier as it's a smaller search space.

Your argument is the same as saying that you don't need to shield the CIA headquarters against electronic eavesdropping because adversaries can just surveill agents in the field. Yes, you can do the later, but you can do the former much easier and with a much bigger payoff if it's not protected.

Click to shrink...

The pay off is worth it, because the divination has told them it will be worth it. They aren't scrying randomly hoping to find a valuable conversation. Your divination told them exactly where they should be looking and listening, and perhaps a significant amount of that time will in the Runiversity, however the North is over represented for its size and age but its still far far smaller than whats going on in the south.

Unless the cost of divination isn't worth the reward... in that case we're back here:

You realise the scrying you're talking about is viewing the entirety of the Campus at once simultaneously?
Snorri has said its going to be the size of a small hold. For every secret conversation about runecraft they get, they'll also be seeing things like Lorna's book club meeting, dwarves trading gossip and just generally living their lives.

I think part of the problem here, is that its hard to imagine an enemy who can process all that but also can't be blocked without incredible difficulty... And even if we do succeed, what if they just scry on every individual workshop in a different Karak?

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You know, where we were before you invented the divination to try and justify how someone could plausibly monitor the entire campus without realising how much of a can of worms you were about to open.
E:

But this isn't the CIA headquarters, it is the the MIT Campus and if the enemy learns basic calculus that is the lose condition. It is not that the dwarfs are fine with Chorfs knowing the Rune of Fire as long as they don't learn the Master Rune of Thungi, any rune lost is utter and unspeakable shame so we would have to posit that they would only aim for the advanced stuff for some reason and that does not make sense to me.

Click to shrink...

For goodness sake. If the lose condition is basic calculus, then to continue the analogy they could spy on any school in the country.
See this is the problem.
The enemy is impossibly competent. The target is ridiculously easy. Canonically they do not appear to have succeeded.
In story, they failed even when they had the chance to break out the torture instruments.

 

[Alratan]

But this isn't the CIA headquarters, it is the the MIT Campus and if the enemy learns basic calculus that is the lose condition. It is not that the dwarfs are fine with Chorfs knowing the Rune of Fire as long as they don't learn the Master Rune of Thungi, any rune lost is utter and unspeakable shame so we would have to posit that they would only aim for the advanced stuff for some reason and that does not make sense to me.

Click to shrink...

Or, say, that apprentice runesmiths are taught black box runes by rote in such a way that it's incredibly difficult to extract useful information to develop your own magic from them, and it's only masters who delve into the detailed theory of runelore that can be used to try to build your own version of runes.

And this argument also suggests that the runiversity doesn't need anything special in terms of physical defences as it's already less exposed than many runesmiths' workshops elsewhere.

This comes back to if nothing novel is happening in the runiversity why are we building it?

The pay off is worth it, because the divination has told them it will be worth it. They aren't scrying randomly hoping to find a valuable conversation. Your divination told them exactly where they should be looking and listening, and perhaps a significant amount of that time will in the Runiversity, however the North is over represented for its size and age but its still far far smaller than whats going on in the south.

Unless the cost of divination isn't worth the reward... in that case we're back here:

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No, the future looking divination would have basically loaded the dice, telling them when and how they're likely to succeed. These aren't perfect global effects. They're not no limits fallacy you can apply reducto ad absurdum to like this.

Just because they can use magic to help predict where and when to look in a very limited space doesn't mean they can use magic to predict where and when to look in the entire world, and saying enemies may be able to do the former doesn't require they can do the latter.

If you're performing surveillance knowing that you can focus on a much smaller area before you even start looking is very useful.

 

[DragonParadox]

For goodness sake. If the lose condition is basic calculus, then to continue the analogy they could spy on any school in the country.
See this is the problem.
The enemy is impossibly competent. The target is ridiculously easy. Canonically they do not appear to have succeeded.

Click to shrink...

That is my point, I was agreeing with you.

 

[Dark as Silver]

No, the future looking divination would have basically loaded the dice, telling them when and how they're likely to succeed. These aren't perfect global effects. They're not no limits fallacy you can apply reducto ad absurdum to like this,

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Future looking divination will still tell them when and how likely they are to succeed. And across a continent spanning empire, they will have no shortage of chances.

That is my point, I was agreeing with you.

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Sorry then.

 

[Alratan]

Future looking divination will still tell them when and how likely they are to succeed. And across a continent spanning empire, they will have no shortage of chances.

Click to shrink...

Why would it be as easy to divine future events across a continent spanning empire as it would be to divine future events happening in a selected cubic mile?

 

[DragonParadox]

Or, say, that apprentice runesmiths are taught black box runes by rote in such a way that it's incredibly difficult to extract useful information to develop your own magic from them, and it's only masters who delve into the detailed theory of runelore that can be used to try to build your own version of runes.

And this argument also suggests that the runiversity doesn't need anything special in terms of physical defences as it's already less exposed than many runesmiths' workshops elsewhere.

Click to shrink...

1. We have seen no indication of Black-Boxing in this quest involving a dwarf runelord teaching apprentices from a first person PoV
2. Yeah that is my argument, also added to that if the pathetic shadow of Thungi's art post War of the Beard somehow managed not to lose any runes to scrying (keeping in mind that Chaos lost neither skill nor the use of daemons in the centuries between now and then) then scrying rune study is almost assuredly not a thing

 

[Neat John]

Otherwise Wardstones would be basically worthless as a line of research at all, and would never have been invented or made in the first place, as the runesmiths of Dum would have just made the much more generally applicable anti-magic runes.

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Wardstones only conceal the presence of a Dwarf form scrying, I don't think that really helps when you already know were the Dwarfs are.

Fundamentally I don't believe that it is possible to scry a loction that has anti-magic defences and hundered's of anti-maigc units barring really extreme power.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Why would it be as easy to divine future events across a continent spanning empire as it would be to divine future events happening in a selected cubic mile?

Click to shrink...

I dunno you made it up, at the very least, the continent spanning empire has a lower density of naturally anti magic people walking around in it and interfering with the results.

 

[Alratan]

1. We have seen no indication of Black-Boxing in this quest involving a dwarf runelord teaching apprentices from a first person PoV
2. Yeah that is my argument, also added to that if the pathetic shadow of Thungi's art post War of the Beard somehow managed not to lose any runes to scrying (keeping in mind that Chaos lost neither skill nor the use of daemons in the centuries between now and then) then scrying rune study is almost assuredly not a thing

Click to shrink...

All runes are automatically black boxed as far as I understand it, they're taught to apprentices as rote exercises.

And there wasn't anywhere like the runiversity in canon where actual discussion of the mechanics of runelore and such between masters.

What you could learn from repeatedly srcying on apprentices being gradually taught over the course of multiple decades could well not have allowed runelore to be pierced together. What you could learn from repeatedly scrying the university could be much greater and more concentrated.

Wardstones only conceal the presence of a Dwarf form scrying, I don't think that really helps when you already know were the Dwarfs are.

Fundamentally I don't believe that it is possible to scry a loction that has anti-magic defences and hundered's of anti-maigc units barring really extreme power.

Click to shrink...

So why did the runesmiths of dum invest the vast amounts of time required for rune development in creating wardstones, and then more time making wardstones, rather than just churning out the vastly more generally applicable anti-magic runes?

I dunno you made it up, at the very least, the continent spanning empire has a lower density of naturally anti magic people walking around in it and interfering with the results.

Click to shrink...

The way that divination of the future has been mechanically represented in Warhammer is that it gives you extra tries to succeed at something. That means that its effects are related to the difficulty of what you're trying. Finding a single conversation in the entire Old World blind is impossible, so things like the Portents of Amul would do nothing. Working out the schedules of two masters having a series of debates in the runiversity is very possible, so the visions they grant could well make it much easier.

 

[DragonParadox]

At the end of the day we are not putting twelve death lazes, six hundred runic piranha and a dragon to guard the Runiversity because that is actually necessary, we are doing it because that is what it takes to satisfy Snori's IC paranoia and the paranoia of other dwarfs.

The easiest way to get runes out of a dwarf IMO has nothing to do with either assaulting Karak Drak or sending daemons to spy on runic workshops, you just ambush a journeyman on their journey (that whole part of the lifecycle where they wander around with little to no protection, the one where they often die) stick a daemon in their heads and get it to ransack their mind and soul for the information.

 

[Talon TigerDino]

[X] [Name:] Write-in. No more than 3, preferably 2, syllables.
-[X] Izgrom (Brave Copper), The left hatchling with beaten Gromril spines and copper flecked eyes.
-[X] Zharrok (Cunning Fire), The middle hatchling, with some spines that look as if they were subjected to flames.
-[X] Grimgal (Harsh/Unyielding Gold), The right hatchling, larger than its siblings with shifting eyes.

I approve of the new name for the first drakk.

 

[Andmeuths]

Your argument is the same as saying that you don't need to shield the CIA headquarters against electronic eavesdropping because adversaries can just surveill agents in the field. Yes, you can do the later, but you can do the former much easier and with a much bigger payoff if it's not protected.

Click to shrink...

Well, then, what I seem to be getting from your position here, is that you want Snorri to go down the Wardstone tree deep enough , no matter how many actions it might take to be able to turn the Rhuniversity into one gigantic Anti-Scrying Wardstone field.

How many parts are we away from doing this? For reference, Part 6 of Movement of Things is what allows us to turn the whole Rhuniversity into a Deep Magic Field.

Even if we can dump 5 actions into Wardstones for 8 progress per turn, up to Turn 51, we'd only get 24 progress. That probably only get's us to Part 2 at best, and I doubt this gives us a true anti-scrying field, just a room at best. If it turns out a true Anti-scrying field is four parts, let alone six, it's not mathematically possible to set up our Rhuniversity with one.

If what you want is to ensure that we at least complete one level of Wardstone to set security precedence, then this is doable. Any more might be very politically exceedingly difficult, because it's competing with the Akazit Lobby, the Runechain Lobby , the Rune Metal Lobby, the Deep Magic Lobby and fighting a war with the Firmir.

 

[DragonParadox]

All runes are automatically black boxed as far as I understand it, they're taught to apprentices as rote exercises.

And there wasn't anywhere like the runiversity in canon where actual discussion of the mechanics of runelore and such between masters occuered.

Click to shrink...

We know journeymen, the ones who go poking around the various hellish corners of the world know enough about runes to make their own, we know that because Snori's did just that.

 

[Neat John]

So why did the runesmiths of dum invest the vast amounts of time required for rune development in creating wardstones, and then more time making wardstones, rather than just churning out the vastly more generally applicable anti-magic runes?

Click to shrink...

They made the Wardstones to hide form the enemy. Anit-magic does not hide the loction but it would stop them from listening.

 

[Dark as Silver]

All runes are automatically black boxed as far as I understand it, they're taught to apprentices as rote exercises.

And there wasn't anywhere like the runiversity in canon where actual discussion of the mechanics of runelore and such between masters occuered.



So why did the runesmiths of dum invest the vast amounts of time required for rune development in creating wardstones, and then more time making wardstones, rather than just churning out the vastly more generally applicable anti-magic runes?



The way that divination of the future has been mechanically represented in Warhammer is that it gives you extra tries to succeed at something. That means that its effects are related to the difficulty of what you're trying. Finding a single conversation in the entire Old World blind is impossible, so things like the Portents of Amul would do nothing. Working out the schedules of two masters having a series of debates in the runiversity is very possible, so the visions they grant could well make it much easier.

Click to shrink...

... Anything scheduled like that would be publicly available. As in, not even a secret passed between master and apprentice, just... common knowledge. Hell, the schedule would be publicly available so why do they need to divine it?
We're literally back at the start where why not just spy on a master teaching his apprentices. The wording would be more accessible to those unfamiliar with secrets, there would be less disruption from the concentration of runesmiths and it would probably also be on a regular schedule.

 

[Cursix]

A little concerned about the dragons getting territorial with each other and the griffons as they mature. The bestial one especially. Also should probably consult the griffons on this ASAP, can't imagine they'd be happy with three apex predators growing up and claiming territory by their primary roost without a word.

Is the first bit of notice people get of these going to be them hanging off Snorri/Karstah like particularly spiky limpets?

 

[TheCynicalPogo]

Well, then, what I seem to be getting from your position here, is that you want Snorri to go down the Wardstone tree deep enough , no matter how many actions it might take to be able to turn the Rhuniversity into one gigantic Anti-Scrying Wardstone field.

How many parts are we away from doing this? For reference, Part 6 of Movement of Things is what allows us to turn the whole Rhuniversity into a Deep Magic Field.

Even if we can dump 5 actions into Wardstones for 8 progress per turn, up to Turn 51, we'd only get 24 progress. That probably only get's us to Part 2 at best, and I doubt this gives us a true anti-scrying field. If it turns out a true Anti-scrying field is four parts, let alone six, it's not mathematically possible to set up our Rhuniversity with one.

If what you want is to ensure that we at least complete one level of Wardstone, then this is doable. Any more might be very politically exceedingly difficult, because it's competing with the Akazit Lobby, the Runechain Lobby , the Rune Metal Lobby, the Deep Magic Lobby and fighting a war with the Firmir.

Click to shrink...

This is probably the most important point for this argument imo, action economy wise, we will get more done just ensuring Wardstone is ready for smaller applications, like the previously suggested warding statues throughout the campus, than we will in trying to pour buckets of effort into a research route that is unlikely to bear the needed fruit to make it worthwhile when we have other things that simply must be done for the Runiversity Snorri's envisioning to succeed, especially when most likely, the warding statues and talismans will probably be just as effective as turning the campus into one giant anti-scrying system

 

[Dark as Silver]

A little concerned about the dragons getting territorial with each other and the griffons as they mature. The bestial one especially. Also should probably consult the griffons on this ASAP, can't imagine they'd be happy with three apex predators growing up and claiming territory by their primary roost without a word.

Is the first bit of notice people get of these going to be them hanging off Snorri/Karstah like particularly spiky limpets?

Click to shrink...

These aren't Dragon dragons, they're Shard Dragons.
They're literally underground creatures so they probably won't bother the Brana unless they've tunnelled through Kraka Drakk to get there, in which case we probably have larger problems.

 

[Alratan]

Well, then, if I am to make it clear, you want Snorri to go down the Wardstone tree deep enough , no matter how many actions it might take to be able to turn the Rhuniversity into one gigantic Anti-Scrying Wardstone field.

How many parts are we away from doing this? For reference, Part 6 of Movement of Things is what allows us to turn the whole Rhuniversity into a Deep Magic Field.

Even if we can dump 5 actions into Wardstones for 8 progress per turn, up to Turn 51, we'd only get 24 progress. That probably only get's us to Part 2 at best, and I doubt this gives us a true anti-scrying field. If it turns out a true Anti-scrying field is four parts, let alone six, it's not mathematically possible to set up our Rhuniversity with one.

If what you want is to ensure that we at least complete one level of Wardstone, then this is doable. Any more might be very politically exceedingly difficult.

Click to shrink...

I expect that just finishing off the Wardstones investigation option will complete that research tree, particularly with Valaya's insights, so two actions.

At the end of the day we are not putting twelve death lazes, six hundred runic piranha and a dragon to guard the Runiversity because that is actually necessary, we are doing it because that is what it takes to satisfy Snori's IC paranoia and the paranoia of other dwarfs.

The easiest way to get runes out of a dwarf IMO has nothing to do with either assaulting Karak Drak or sending daemons to spy on runic workshops, you just ambush a journeyman on their journey (that whole part of the lifecycle where they wander around with little to no protection, the one where they often die) stick a daemon in their heads and get it to ransack their mind and soul for the information.

Click to shrink...

There are clearly some unknown protections that prevent that. Whether it's because of Thungni's divine blessings or because dwarves trn to stone if a daemon possesses them.

I'm not sure that dwarves even can be possessed - does anyone recall any examples of it?

They made the Wardstones to hide form the enemy. Anit-magic does not hide the loction but it would stop them from listening.

Click to shrink...

Why wouldn't anti-magic hide the location if it can stop them listening?

... Anything scheduled like that would be publicly available. As in, not even a secret passed between master and apprentice, just... common knowledge. Hell, the schedule would be publicly available so why do they need to divine it?
We're literally back at the start where why not just spy on a master teaching his apprentices. The wording would be more accessible to those unfamiliar with secrets, there would be less disruption from the concentration of runesmiths and it would probably also be on a regular schedule.

Click to shrink...

The fact that two runelords plan to meet up at a certain time and place to discuss runelore would not be publicly available. That's just ludicrous. It would, however, be possible for a person scrying to infer.

You scry on the runiversity rather than the master and his apprentices because the density of information transmission in one place is much greater, because information is being transmitted is much more frequent, and because subjects are being discussed would not be there.

If that's not the case, and nothing is happening here that wouldn't be happening in a master's workshop already, why are we doing this at all?

 

[rocketroland999]

The runic discussion between masters is filled with enough jargon that scrying on masters is unviable for figuring out runelore, and it would take decades of continuous scrying to learn the jargon as an apprentice does. Technically possible, but unfeasible. Remember, the people spying on us would be chaos, and if you're wasting decades to figure out something without getting any stronger in the short term you're likely to die horribly from your patron deciding you're boring, your allies stabbing you to take your stuff, the daemons in your gear breaking out and murdering you, etc etc. with the natural anti magic built up by the sheer presence of powerful rune lords, and ridiculous amounts of runesmiths, scrying is technically possible, but not really useful.

 

[Cursix]

These aren't Dragon dragons, they're Shard Dragons.
They're literally underground creatures so they probably won't bother the Brana unless they've tunnelled through Kraka Drakk to get there, in which case we probably have larger problems.

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Yeah, the giant apex predators aren't an issue because they live directly under your house rather than right outside it.

 

[TheCynicalPogo]

Yeah, the giant apex predators aren't an issue because they live directly under your house rather than right outside it.

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Really it's just more DEFENSE! IN! DEPTH! Let the Brana nest on top, let the Wyrms eat any bastards lurking in the depths. Nothing better than an artificially induced hostile ecosystem to destroy and demoralize your enemies! The bloody Fimir showed that one off, that's for sure

 

[Dark as Silver]

The fact that two runelords plan to meet up at a certain time and place to discuss runelore would not be publicly available. That's just ludicrous. It would, however, be possible for a person scrying to infer.

You scry on the runiversity rather than the master and his apprentices because the density of information transmission in one place is much greater, because information is being transmitted is much more frequent, and because subjects are being discussed would not be there.

If that's not the case, and nothing is happening here that wouldn't be happening in a master's workshop already, why are we doing this at all?

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So when you said this

Working out the schedules of two masters having a series of debates in the runiversity

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You didn't mean academic debates.
You meant two rivals who probably don't like each other coming to yell at each other why they're right and the other is wrong in a private room?
...
Well I guess thats a problem for a couple millenia in the future after the campus is more normalised. However thats not really how we're expecting the Runiversity to be used.
There are two main ways we're expecting this to spread knowledge:
Journeyman to Journeyman and Master to Journeyman. Master to Master information flow won't happen until the first generations of Journeydwarves who already formed collaboration groups become masters. And even then, Masters will have their own facilities and are far less likely to use the campus rather than meeting up in their own rooms.
And this sort of debate that you imagined specifically, isn't something thats likely to happen without an audience because of the dwarfiness of those debators.
E;

Yeah, the giant apex predators aren't an issue because they live directly under your house rather than right outside it.

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For the Brana. Yes.
For the Dwarves. This is why I spent a while arguing that people were too optimistic about their reaction.