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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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The Void King said:
How did the war of Vengeance/Beards/Ancients start?
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The dark elves did some raiding on the dwarfs and made it look like the elves did it. Dwarfs proceed to blame the elves and demand recompense and revenge.

Dwarf High King at the time was remarkably calm about the whole thing and sent a diplomatic party to the Pheonix King of the elves to try and solve the issue peacefully and get enough out of the elves as recompense so that the rest of the dwarfs can't declare war for unpaid grudges.

Pheonix King Moron decided he was incredibly insulted by the dwarfs demanding to be repaid for damages done to them and proceed to have all of their Beards shaven off and sent back to the High King in shame.

At which point the High King had no other possible option but to declare war.
 
Malkeith staged deniable raids on dawi strongholds and convoys over the course of years to fray the good will of the Dawi-elgi relationship in a bid to distract the realm so he could become phoenix king. Then when dawi envoys came over to ask what the fuck the prince who hosted them was so grossed out over their beards he had them shaved. This is equivalent of making a diplomatic party into eunuchs. Diplomacy spiraled from there.

Edit: double ninja'd
 
The Void King said:
How did the war of Vengeance/Beards/Ancients start?
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To put a long story short, it was effectively Malekith rolling a nat100 on a false flag action, and it snowballed from there.

More seriously, the Dark Elves, after the Sundering, attacked a dwarf trade caravan. As the Elves hadn't mentioned anything about the existence of a rogue splinter faction in Ulthuan to the Karaz Ankor to avoid embarrassment, the dwarfs assumed that this was an unprovoked attack on non-combatants by the Asur. From there, the story differs in accountings between lore books and Black Library novels showing the war from an in-person perspective.

In the lore book version, the Dwarfs sent an ambassador to Ulthuan to demand an explanation about this unprovoked attack, and to claim compensation. Caledor II, who is regarded in history as only having the positive traits of being a capable warrior and easy to manipulate by Ulthuan's nobility, decided that the short man demanding he answer his questions and pay recompense for dead dwarfs was an insult to his dignity, and had him shaved when the ambassador swore on his beard that he would not leave empty-handed.

The War of Vengeance novels paint a rather different picture. While the ambassador sent by the High King is on his way to Ulthuan, the relatives of the dead dwarfs lose their patience and proceed to sack an elven settlement that was nearest to where the ambush had happened in revenge, and Caledor II received news of this massacre only a short while before a dwarf comes into his court, professing ignorance of any wrongdoing by the dwarfs and demanding that he explain why there are dead dwarfs and how promptly will he be paying their families compensation for their loss, and then brandishing his axe when refused and making that same oath.

In both scenarios, this diplomatic incident started the war.
BronzeTongue said:
He was then surprised by the dwarves deciding to kill every elf they could get their hands on, and burning their colonies to the ground, so presumably he never got his missing grey matter back.
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Even if he got them back, he certainly lost them again when Gotrek Starbreaker tore the Phoenix Crown off of his caved-in skull.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
To put a long story short, it was effectively Malekith rolling a nat100 on a false flag action, and it snowballed from there.

More seriously, the Dark Elves, after the Sundering, attacked a dwarf trade caravan. As the Elves hadn't mentioned anything about the existence of a rogue splinter faction in Ulthuan to the Karaz Ankor to avoid embarrassment, the dwarfs assumed that this was an unprovoked attack on non-combatants by the Asur. From there, the story differs in accountings between lore books and Black Library novels showing the war from an in-person perspective.

In the lore book version, the Dwarfs sent an ambassador to Ulthuan to demand an explanation about this unprovoked attack, and to claim compensation. Caledor II, who is regarded in history as only having the positive traits of being a capable warrior and easy to manipulate by Ulthuan's nobility, decided that the short man demanding he answer his questions and pay recompense for dead dwarfs was an insult to his dignity, and had him shaved when the ambassador swore on his beard that he would not leave empty-handed.

The War of Vengeance novels paint a rather different picture. While the ambassador sent by the High King is on his way to Ulthuan, the relatives of the dead dwarfs lose their patience and proceed to sack an elven settlement that was nearest to where the ambush had happened in revenge, and Caledor II received news of this massacre only a short while before a dwarf comes into his court, professing ignorance of any wrongdoing by the dwarfs and demanding that he explain why there are dead dwarfs and how promptly will he be paying their families compensation for their loss, and then brandishing his axe when refused and making that same oath.

In both scenarios, this diplomatic incident started the war.

Even if he got them back, he certainly lost them again when Gotrek Starbreaker tore the Phoenix Crown off of his caved-in skull.
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So a combination of Malekith the petty, Elven arrogance and stupidity with a dash of some dwarven stubbornness, grudges, and lack of patience and idiocy.

Fucking elves and their fucking inability to properly do diplomacy

"Oh, look at how civilized we are compared to everyone else; just ignore that most of our problems come from us being fucking dumb, arrogant, antagonistic petty idiots to all our allies!"

Fucking hell, Dwarfs are better, and they're dwarfs, for fucksake!
 
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The Void King said:
So a combination of Malekith the petty, Elven arrogance and stupidity with a dash of some dwarven clans stubbornness, grudges, and lack of patience and idiocy.

Fucking elves and their fucking inability to properly do diplomacy

"Oh, look at how civilized we are compared to everyone else; just ignore that most of our problems come from us being fucking dumb, arrogant idiots to all our allies!"

Fucking hell, Dwarfs are better, and they're dwarfs, for fucksake!
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Yes, the Dwarfs would never do anything undiplomatic like try to wage war on the Wood Elves the first time they met them, or draw weapons on the Phoenix King, or burn Kor Vanaeth to the ground before their diplomatic party had reached Ulthuan, or something.

No, never, not the Dwarfs, who never do anything wrong ever.
 
Isn't the first time they meet them the wood elves hunted them for sport? Honestly curious when the wild hunts began as the colonies weren't like that at the start I think.

As for the dawi throwing hands first, is that before or after the raids?
 
Image said:
Isn't the first time they meet them the wood elves hunted them for sport? Honestly curious when the wild hunts began as the colonies weren't like that at the start I think.

As for the dawi throwing hands first, is that before or after the raids?
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Year 4902 AP, 380 IC: Dwarfs discover the inhabitants of Athel Loren, to disastrous results.
-Dwarf 8ed Army Book

So it's not mentioned on a cursory investigation and I'll cop that it's an assumption, my bad. In the interest of fairness in the 5ed Wood Elf book the Elves attack first, kind of, in that the Dwarfs are heavily armored, enter Athel Loren uninvited and they set out to steal Elf shit but the Elves don't exactly try to negotiate either.

In any case the Dwarfs do definitely like poking at the Wood Elves. To paraphrase:

IC 1351- Grungni Goldfinder and a band of Dwarf treasure seekers descend on the Pine Crag. They are repelled.
IC 2386-The Dwarfs of Karak Norn march again on Athel Loren, just as they had many times since the death of Grungni Goldfinger.
IC 2508-Ungrim Ironfist fought an army of Greenskins outside of Athel Loren. The Wood Elves under Thalandor ride out seeing the justice of the Dwarf cause and soon the battle turns against the Greenskins. At that junction the Dwarfs turn against the Asrai to resolve millennia old Grudges.

Shocked, just shocked, to discover the Wood Elves do not like the people who attempt to burn down their forest, get very angry when they defend themselves, and then betray them, nor have any fondness for their allies.

(I should not be writing posts like this past 11.)
 
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What is pine crag and why were the dawi going there? For what materials? It sounds like the Wood Elves just killed the first group for exploring and adventuring . Its very vague. We don't have clear reasons why there was too be clear cutting or ransacking at that time. Dawi greed is well known but there should have been trade before then so too gain such material, so shrug?

Could just be assholes on both sides not willing to talk and rather kill each other forever.
 
Image said:
What is pine crag and why were the dawi going there? For what materials? It sounds like the Wood Elves just killed the first group for exploring and adventuring . Its very vague. We don't have clear reasons why there was too be clear cutting or ransacking at that time. Dawi greed is well known but there should have been trade before then so too gain such material, so shrug?
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The reason is vague, at least in the Welves book. Could be looking for raw material to work with for Karak Norn; could be they want to keep killing the Forest Spirits who sided with the Elves, because that is a thing they did; could be they just want to burn the forest to spite the Elves more, because that is also a thing they did (Clean air, what's that?).

Also to circle back:
Voikirium said:
In the interest of fairness in the 5ed Wood Elf book the Elves attack first, kind of, in that the Dwarfs are heavily armored, enter Athel Loren uninvited and they set out to steal Elf shit but the Elves don't exactly try to negotiate either.
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The entire thing is written in a way to give it very big "Natives ambushing conquistadors" vibes to draw a metaphor.
 
The war of the Beard happened between -2000 to -1600. I guess the Wood elves had 5 thousand years of isolation and fighting Beastmen to make them trigger happy. At least to my rough understanding of the timeline. We know that Malkeith was popular in the colonies what with saving them from green skins and the beastmen when they were first being colonized. So maybe Nagarythe customs just evolved into the more savage versions we see in the canon timeline.
 
To my understanding Athel Loren is just incredibly isolationist and violent towards all outsiders anyway. Them being dwarves isn't particularly relevant to the elves of Athel Loren, only that they might be a threat is.
 
Voikirium said:
Yes, the Dwarfs would never do anything undiplomatic like try to wage war on the Wood Elves the first time they met them, or draw weapons on the Phoenix King, or burn Kor Vanaeth to the ground before their diplomatic party had reached Ulthuan, or something.

No, never, not the Dwarfs, who never do anything wrong ever.
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I blamed the dwarfs, too; honestly, did you not read the bit about dwarven stupidity? it's just that I dislike elves personally; that turned it into a rant against elves, but dwarfs are stupid too; well, that and being psychologically incapable of letting anything go, ever.

Honestly, both dwarves and elves are fucking assholes, I just like dwarves more than elves
 
Byzantine said:
To my understanding Athel Loren is just incredibly isolationist and violent towards all outsiders anyway. Them being dwarves isn't particularly relevant to the elves of Athel Loren, only that they might be a threat is.
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They are isolationists but it being Dwarfs definitely effected things (in 5ed at least). When a Bretonnian Questing Knight entered Athel Loren seeking to establish an alliance while they did try and scare him and test him they certainly didn't leap to killing him first (though fair's fair, on account of an earlier battle if it had been an entire party instead of a single knight they would have), and in general they were more likely to lure out then just shoot first and ask questions later, except for the Dwarfs.
 
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Voikirium said:
Yes, the Dwarfs would never do anything undiplomatic like try to wage war on the Wood Elves the first time they met them, or draw weapons on the Phoenix King, or burn Kor Vanaeth to the ground before their diplomatic party had reached Ulthuan, or something.
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The spark that ignited the war of the beard is on Caledor II.
Given what is known of caledor and his court, I don't think the diplomat drew his axe as a first response.
Not saying he didn't, or that it wasn't egregious, but it was likely a response to being snubbed repeatedly.
I'm giving the diplomat at least some competence, to go with the dwarven temper.
 
abominable said:
Hmph! This is why manlings are better!

Proceeds to ignore Beastmen origins and one of most common types of Chaos mook. :V
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Considering that Beastmen are in the region but humans are not. Humans are not the origin of Beastmen and the name is a misnomer.
Or at least there are multiple origins for Beastmen.
Voikirium said:
So it's not mentioned on a cursory investigation and I'll cop that it's an assumption, my bad. In the interest of fairness in the 5ed Wood Elf book the Elves attack first, kind of, in that the Dwarfs are heavily armored, enter Athel Loren uninvited and they set out to steal Elf shit but the Elves don't exactly try to negotiate either.
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If they didn't know elves lived there, they didn't set out to steal Elf shit. They set out to steal stuff that wasn't owned.
 
Beastmen come from:

1: Humans, mutated.

2: Animals, mutated.

3: Human women, raped by Beastmen.

4: Animals, raped by Beastmen.

5: Occasionally female Beastmen but the Lore is woozy on this.

6: Just shit them out of the Warp sometimes.

7: MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNN.
 
Only one beastman (apparently) came from the moon.

He wasn't even a rabbit!

Edit:...rabbit beastmen. Huh.
 
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ArchAIngel said:
Beastmen come from:

1: Humans, mutated.

2: Animals, mutated.

3: Human women, raped by Beastmen.

4: Animals, raped by Beastmen.

5: Occasionally female Beastmen but the Lore is woozy on this.

6: Just shit them out of the Warp sometimes.

7: MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNN.
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There's also Gaves, those occasional times where a Beastman baby just happens from two regular human parents.
Dark as Silver said:
Isn't there a race of monkey beastmen in Cathay or something. You can't prove there aren't rabbit beastmen from the moon in Nippon.
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There's also tiger and snake beastmen in Ind, from what I recall.
 
Dark as Silver said:
If they didn't know elves lived there, they didn't set out to steal Elf shit. They set out to steal stuff that wasn't owned.
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They were planning on looting the abandoned elf colonies to the west. Then when they ran head first into Athel Loren they decided to steal shit from those elves instead.
 
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