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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Sorry, I think I've confused the Amplier and Glittering Beacon combos.
Breaking up Magic came with Amplifier combo, but MAmplification is derived from Glittering Beacon and not Amplifier. I'm going to have to start calling it MSneera so I don't do that again.

I'm less opposed to the idea than I think you think I am.
My concern with MSoul is that we do not understand the deep magic aspects of the rune and it feels we're investing a lot in what might be a tertiary function when Movement of things may provide better alternatives and would guarantee an understanding about deep magic that would help no matter what.
I think the design is fine, given that we have a very limited number of potential deep magic taps it would be hard to improve for this role without assuming a lot of research results. My disagreement with it is primarily the expense, that if we spent that effort elsewhere we'd have a reasonable chance of getting those windfalls, and that I think we could do other talismans better.


Anyway I've complained a lot about other gronti designs so time for me to ante up and give others something to complain about.
This design was based with a couple of requirements: I want everything to be linkable to a common 'aspect' of a dragon for combo potential. I want everything to require no research investment, i.e. we could make this next turn. And I want to be naysaying to offer ideas that haven't been widely considered and aren't just cheap versions of other Grontis, I have nothing against movement banners but you've got plenty of designs and I don't have much new to offer.

I do not have good combos currently for Talisman 2 or Weapon 2 that meet those requirements so I left them off: Hell arguably Talisman 1 doesn't meet the third.

ItemMr1r2Aspect
GrontiWakingSiphoningSpelleatingGreed
ArmourInfernosEmbersFlamewardFire
WeaponMsmitingCleavingEchoblowMight
BannerMsneeraSiphoningSpellbreakingMagic
TalismanMwanderingSpeedImpactFlight

The Gronti combo is based on a dragons greed. We have tried making Gronti's more powerful by making them more lifelike, we have not yet tried making them more Lifelike by making them more powerful. This assumes a variant Siphoning that will only be empowering the Gronti itself rather than the more Banner like effect and also uses spell eating to try and consume the winds and enemy spells to further enforce this.

I offered this armour a while ago but to go other it again, its designed to take advantage of the Gronti's inherent near indestructibility to turn it into an impossible to beat DPS check that fries whole formations at once. Infernos engulfs the user in fire and heat that detonates on command, Embers causes attackers to get burnt for attacking hopefully improving Infernos into a free reaction. Flameward protects the Gronti from any side effects of being on fire and hopefully turns it into more of a passive.

The Might weapon is pretty boring by comparison, if we're expecting this Gronti to fight other super heavies its going to need to pack a punch. If I have only one reget, its that I didn't use Might... Also that its boring.

The Dragon is going to spend most of its time surrounded by Runesmiths and marching at the head of the Runehost. Its goal is simple, enhance those strengths, support Runesmiths breaking enemy spells and then redistribute the broken magic to enhance the hosts weapons. It simply feels that it can contribute more here rather than enhancing the hosts speed.

FInally Flight is just a good idea. Talismans give more powerful single target effects than banners do. I don't think we can actually get the dragon flying however this gets the Gronti into combat quickly which is useful for a whole lot of reasons especially for getting maximum value out of the armour.

Right I will try and give some feedback here then.

Your ideal for the set is interesting enough and most of your items look like they could get the allusions your going for. Approve wholeheartedly.

Gronti Runes - Very nice, good allusion for the set.

Banner - Good runes does it's job well. I am willing to try it out would approve.

Amour -
Flameward creates a thin fireproof film around the armour.
Embers causes the armour to spew out fire when hit.
You are casting fire spells through a fire nullification shield, and from how it is worded I think it will be flames appearing on the wrong side of it for you to use. Therefore I do not think it will combo because of the competing activation, and may actually go against your purpose by keeping part of the flames trapped in the Gronti itself.
Personally given Infernos is already designed to have friendly fire defence involved, and the strength of the Gronti I would swap out flameward for a third offensive fire Rune.
Anything from Rune of Fire, another Rune of Cinders, Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Fury etc

Weapon one - Only a personal feeling here, I would go through and swap Cleaving for Might.
From personal feel smiting brings much more images of hammers and such rather than cutting weapons when I think of it, combined with its use case of increasing momentum I feel it is unlikely to combo with cleaving.
That is only a vague feeling though.
Other than that yes it is a good generic weapon not much else to say about it.

Talisman is good - I like the rune you've used. I don't think it quite ties into the overall qualities of a dragon set you intend, because stretching those runes to a flight analogy is too many steps away. There is no actual flight modifier in the item itself to fit with your allusion to it as part of the theme.
 
Okay now I remember Siphoning, thanks. @soulcake I don't think that made it into the detailed rune list.
So I have, thanks for pointing that out.

As I typed that I remembered the reason why it isn't there. Apologies. The Rune is technically incomplete. I can put the current version in as a placeholder though.
 
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Amour -
Flameward creates a thin fireproof film around the armour.
Embers causes the armour to spew out fire when hit.
You are casting fire spells through a fire nullification shield, and from how it is worded I think it will be flames appearing on the wrong side of it for you to use. Therefore I do not think it will combo because of the competing activation, and may actually go against your purpose by keeping part of the flames trapped in the Gronti itself.
Personally given Infernos is already designed to have friendly fire defence involved, and the strength of the Gronti I would swap out flameward for a third offensive fire Rune.
Anything from Rune of Fire, another Rune of Cinders, Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Fury etc

Weapon one - Only a personal feeling here, I would go through and swap Cleaving for Might.
From personal feel smiting brings much more images of hammers and such rather than cutting weapons when I think of it, combined with its use case of increasing momentum I feel it is unlikely to combo with cleaving.
That is only a vague feeling though.
Other than that yes it is a good generic weapon not much else to say about it.

Talisman is good - I like the rune you've used. I don't think it quite ties into the overall qualities of a dragon set you intend, because stretching those runes to a flight analogy is too many steps away. There is no actual flight modifier in the item itself to fit with your allusion to it as part of the theme.
Thanks :)

I'm not all that worried about flameward but I do understand your point, Fury and Grimnir are self buffs and more Azyr oriented than fire oriented, I can't say that they wouldn't work, I think part of the reason I hadn't considered them here was that I was working around an Anger combo for weapon 2 but it ended up being Bungie's Dragonbreath combo. Fire is boring but cannot go wrong from an effect point. For a few more out their ideas: Bang or Blinding for enhancing the explosion. Or Might since that worked with Meteorfall.

Yeah thats the problem with generic designs, they do what they're designed to do and theres not much else to talk about. Interesting thought about Smiting and Cleaving, I picked Cleaving over might because I wanted the possible armour piercing effects of breaking apart the strongest stone and further reinforcing the Gronti. However it was a close thing and I wouldn't mind swapping.

Talisman is fair, while the inspiration is drawn from flight however I just don't see us getting the Gronti to fly so this combo was intended to be about getting into close quarters.
Featherweight is a armour locked rune without further research so I can't think off the top of my head what would be a flight modifier in your words.

So I have, thanks for pointing that out.

As I typed that I remembered the reason why it isn't there. Apologies. The Rune is technically incomplete. I can put the current version in as a placeholder though.
Thanks.
Oooh its a structural rune. Now thats interesting.
Would our recent proposals to use it as talismanic/ banner or Engineering rune fail then?
The same deal as featherweight variants for alternate rules of form haven't been invented yet.
 
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Would our recent proposals to use it as talismanic/ banner or Engineering rune fail then?
The same deal as featherweight variants for alternate rules of form haven't been invented yet.
Well as mentioned in the turn it was discovered, the Rune is incomplete. Like Featherweight, Snorri is likely to discover the other variants by completing the Research it came from/created in the case of Featherweight. :^)
 
@soulcake
I have a possibly stupid question: how will Snorri even make the Gronti?
A Gronti made of stone, he'd carve it.

Small bits of adamant, he'll use blacksmithing techniques and higher heat.

But when it's adamant and huge?

Smithing the components and then welding them?
Is he going to cast it?
 
@soulcake
I have a possibly stupid question: how will Snorri even make the Gronti?
A Gronti made of stone, he'd carve it.

Small bits of adamant, he'll use blacksmithing techniques and higher heat.

But when it's adamant and huge?

Smithing the components and then welding them?
Is he going to cast it?
Fuck if I know, if you commit I'll figure something out, but there's a reason why I initially only gave numbers up to Bloodthirster sized you know?

:,^)
 
Is the dragon bigger than the bloodthirster?
I thought it was the same volume but a different morphology.
Apologies, I thought we were discussing Bungie's proposed Dragon Gronti which is 3x the size of Blood Thirster. (Yes I can confirm it's buildable, Ill edit in the cost estimates when I can find it)

EDIT:
Ah yes, Bungie asked me this a while ago on the ancient/previous Discord.

Equipment for a Gronti three times the size of a Bloodthirster: x9 Bars.
Armour from a Gronti three times the size of a Bloodthirster: x32 Bars
Full Skeleton: x48 Bars
Full body: x192 Bars

To hypothetically achieve a fully Adamant Gronti three times the size of a Bloodthirster you would need 260 Bars of Adamant (since full body necessitates a skeleton I'm not including the cost as its already part of the full body equation)

From what I remember, Bungie was doing full equipment and armour + Skeleton, so its coming in at a smooth bargain price of 116 Bars
 
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Is there any benefit to making it a full body instead of 'just' a skeleton?
Slightly more powerful rune benefit. Slightly more durable.
Technically, Skeleton was already at the point that Snorri couldn't imagine anything destroying it.

5) How does a 4 meter adamant plated pure gromril gronti compare to a 10 meter pure gromril gronti?
5. You can think of stuff that could destroy the latter, but not the former.
Plated and skeleton are about equivilant, I don't remember if there was a mechanical difference.
Apologies, I thought we were discussing Bungie's proposed Dragon Gronti which is 3x the size of Blood Thirster. (Yes I can confirm it's buildable, Ill edit in the cost estimates when I can find it)

EDIT:
Ah yes, Bungie asked me this a while ago on the ancient/previous Discord.

Equipment for a Gronti three times the size of a Bloodthirster: x9 Bars.
Armour from a Gronti three times the size of a Bloodthirster: x32 Bars
Full Skeleton: x48 Bars
Full body: x192 Bars

To hypothetically achieve a fully Adamant Gronti three times the size of a Bloodthirster you would need 260 Bars of Adamant (since full body necessitates a skeleton I'm not including the cost as its already part of the full body equation)

From what I remember, Bungie was doing full equipment and armour + Skeleton, so its coming in at a smooth bargain price of 116 Bars
Don't forget to increase the size of the weapons, otherwise it'll have dinky little nails not claws.
 
Rune of the Porcupine: The armor bearing this rune grows spikes as long as a finger on all surfaces large enough and smooth enough to do so--breastplates, greaves, vambrace and so on, that sort of thing though no matter what form of helmet it would not grow from there for safety's sake, and certainly not from chain and scale--which fulfill both a defensive and offensive purpose. Defensively, of course, trying to wrestle down the dwarf with such armor is, ah, not advised. Offensively, backhands, tackles, and other physical blows become...problematic. Spikes slowly regrow if broken, which they do fairly easily all told, to more easily stick in the enemy. You are advised not to ask what the spikes are made of.

Rune of Untouchable Shock: An armor rune, which causes a field of electricity to swathe the armor bearing it from head to toe. The electricity is more a deterrent than a weapon in its own right, going more for pain than lethality. That said it is a very effective deterrent since there are precious few creatures in creation that enjoy pain, and it makes punches and kicks even sans a weapon much more effective, being useful therefore in both the offense and in the defense.

Rune of Launching: A simple armor rune, it allows the wielder to at will remove something from his armor with considerable force: among them, blood, oil, dirt, water, the shafts of arrows and bolts that have gotten embedded in, so on and so forth. As the name implies there is considerable velocity in the launch--the rune was specifically modified to do so by its original creator under the theory that the time when armor is likeliest to get so dirty is when they are in a fight and therefore the launched detritus can be used as a distraction.

All runes created by Tharr Vekkr, some of the first he crafted as he set out to become untouchable. It is rumored among Thungni's Folk that by combining the Rune of the Porcupine and the Rune of Launching the spikes can be, well, launched, though Tharr has never confirmed this and the rumors of the Throng tend to focus elsewhere.

So, for the record, I did intend that the Rune of Launching and Rune of the Porcupine put together allow the spikes to be launched either all at once or as a Quareller tier weapon but if you think that's stupid, feel free to ignore it.
 
Equipment pieces for this hypothetical gronti are at 9 bars for a fully adamant piece of equipment, Bloodthirster sized are at 3.
Snorri, staring at the schematics in dismay, before realizing that he'd added in an extra cube ratio into the formula. "And now I have to build the damn thing so that no one knows I made a mistake that not even a Beardling would miss..."
 
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No, our pride as THE Runelord of kraka Drak demands we make this the most magnificent pain in the ass sculpture that we have made up to this point in out lifetime. And, ourselves and our master would expect no less from his prized pupil.
 
I also apologize, I realize my words can be seen as me seeming like I'm supporting Bungie's plan. I'm not giving my support or my disapproval, merely trying to convey info about the plan. After which I realized info I gave Bungie when they asked me was actually never posted here to the rest of the thread.
 
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