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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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A potential schism in the relationship between the Cult of Thungni and the Cult of Valaya. Cult of Valaya instruct their followers to help others as much as possible, Cult of Thungni hold the rule of pride paramount (which depending on how you interpret it could change the amount of the same runework you are willing to do).

The effect, in essence, is that Cult of Valaya would do all they could to ensure that their patients got prosthetic rune work and many runesmiths of the more conservative bent would resist mightily in making the same runework over and over. This causes significant conflict between the two groups which has the potential to create schisms.

This is an unacceptable outcome. The source of the conflict could be traced all the way back to us and we would, either rightfully or not, have blame leveled against us because of our lack in foresight. It would also be needlessly destructive and hurtful to dwarf society who look up to both cults as paragons of what it means to be dwarves.

Additionally, it also has bad potential to hit upon the foundations of the Cult Of Thugni as well.

Runesmiths are very much a master-apprentice system, with each master having great latitude in how they individually use their time, what they work on, how they teach their apprentices, and what knowledge they share or do not share with fellow runesmiths.

Widely spreading the prosthetics rune could be seen as indirectly making a statement that we know better than Thugni what the Cult of Thugni should be like, what should be taught, how their working effort of runesmiths should be used, and how the spread of knowledge should be handled.
 
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It's a risk. It's not that it can't work out, we just don't see the point in taking that risk.

None of these will lead to an immediate bad end, it's a question of how it interacts with all your previous choices
From the vote clarification. And the point is letting aid reach countless more crippled dwarves. Snorri obviously cares deeply about his people, how is that not worth it?
 
Are there any exceptions to the rule of pride at the moment, would Snorri view even thinking of this idea as giga-heretical?
One that's universally agreed upon? No. The closest is the Rune of Stone and even then the hyper conservatives never use it more than once after they become Journeymen.

Getting the Conservatives to say "okay this Rune is exempt" requires the power of Thungni.

You are not Thungni.

End of it is that Conservatives will follow the Rule of Pride, radicals won't (for Regular Runes). You'd need to change the Rule and that also needs a dwarf on the power of Thungni.
 
Hmm.

The options are fundamentally most about methodology which right now is: Teach only to apprentices and use liberally. That's it, I guess. The optics of "Ah yes stringent will make it seem like we're the head of a schism movement" or something is nonsense I think. They just follow a method like we do, that doesn't speak to their political views since both radicals (like snorri) or conservatives can do what Snorri does with it. In context to what we've been doing before, its been fantastically quiet, and even bubbly Snerra treated it with utmost seriousness so I think others will look at it the same way or even more so.

In that light limiting numbers doesn't give them much to complain about, especially when each of those keeps it only to their own apprentices and masters, which is something beyond reproach in the minds of most dwarves.
 
Don't treat them like they'll be idiots. They're Master Runesmiths and that means they have literal centuries of experience. They wouldn't have been chosen as an apprentice, let alone become a Master, if they immediately screwed stuff over.
I think you gave this impression off due to the wording of the middling option, where you claimed Snorri would only give it those "wielding the rune responsibly and a similar disposition to Snorri", and people hyper focused on the first part. This statement kind of implies that he doesn't think the Master Runesmiths that don't make the cut would necessarily be responsible. So there may be less cause for concern if you edited the option a little?

None of these will lead to an immediate bad end, it's a question of how it interacts with all your previous choices. I won't spell out those interactions for you but I can be clearer by what I mean in the vote itself.
Anyway for me it's pretty clear that lax is my prefered choice. These are all Master Runesmiths, who are each acknowledged by their order to be exemplars of their craft and they should be treated just so. It's been mentioned plenty of times that runes have been freely given out if they were valuble enough; and this is more than amply demonstrated with the upcoming Conclave where Snorri both gives out a new rune, a Master Rune, as well as a complete schismatic to create gromril chain. The latter is just so far beyond just giving a normal rune out it's beyond compare.

Then as Soulcake mentioned we should examine Snorri's actions in the past, as well as the ones in the future. So example 1; what has Snorri done when Master Runesmiths have approached him seeking to learn or trade before? Answer: traded with every single one of them. Example 2; what happened when Snorri discovered the Master Rune of Purification, and a method to create Adamant? Answer: he shared it out. The same is likely going to happen with the gromril chain, and further more Akazit itself.

Finally it should be noted that Snorri's nickname is Giftgiver. A knowledge is just as valuable a gift as any other, and frankly this is what those with the title of Runelord should be doing to push the craft forwards. It also doesn't run afoul of the main hindrance prior, of Snorri forcing his view point of how things should be onto other members of his cult and Apprenticeship >> Master lineages. Some of these Master Runesmiths will think like he does, some will be even more conservative; but as Master Runesmiths in their own right this is very much a decision that rests upon their own shoulders.

I suspect that some sort of new Master Rune of [Ancestor's] Memory would be what would allow dwarves to touch upon the experiences of the Ancestors even after they depart, but for obvious reasons it's the sort of thing that would have to involve working in concert with the Ancestors themselves to avoid catastrophic consequences. Also it probably requires knowing multiple separate Master Runes to compress into a single new one; at a bare minimum I'd expect the Master Runes of the Ancestor in question and of Memory to be essential components.
As others of have said what came to mind for me was the Kingship rune.
 
One that's universally agreed upon? No. The closest is the Rune of Stone and even then the hyper conservatives never use it more than once after they become Journeymen.

Getting the Conservatives to say "okay this Rune is exempt" requires the power of Thungni.

You are not Thungni.

End of it is that Conservatives will follow the Rule of Pride, radicals won't (for Regular Runes). You'd need to change the Rule and that also needs a dwarf on the power of Thungni.

Thungni presides over the Runelord Conclave yes? I suppose it would be to much to ask him to weigh in with a decision?

Side step the whole issue by getting his ruling on it directly.
 
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@soulcake

at the next Rune Convention meeting, if Thungni shows up, would we be able to ask him what to do with this Forged Limb issue as it does step on the toes of two ancestor domains to walk the path of the good of all dawi?
 
Remind me, is Thungni still around? Because honestly, if we can make our case to him... this is literally a rune he didn't conceive of. One that it's purpose runs headlong into the Rule of Pride going the other way.
 
There has never been evidence of Snorri putting other Runes on them and doing that sort of thing might get the more conservatively minded Runesmiths questioning Snorri's commitment to the Rule of Pride.

Runesmiths are above rules lawyering.


It is a petty technicality. soulcake has even mentioned a similar thing. Trying to combo a Master Rune with 500 different Runes is Rules lawyering and neither Runesmiths or Snorri would dot hat.

Yes, you go ahead and try to tell the four hundred year-old Runesmith that they are interpreting their religion wrong.

I'll just stand over here.


No they won't. They would be impressed that someone had actually managed to crack gromril chain. The Cult of Grungni doesn't have a scripture saying to kill people who know how to do it. While the Cult of Valaya and Thungni have two conflicting scriptures.

Cult of Valaya: Always provide aid to a wounded or ailing Dwarf
Cult of Thungni: the Rule of Pride

Conservative Runelords are going to see it being spread and are going to get extremely suspicious.

Tailoring prosthetic limbs to the people using them and applying other runes so that they are the most useful they possibly can be to them is not rules-lawyering, it's simply doing a professional job. I'd go so far to say as any runesmith that simply smacks a Rune of Forged Limb on a prosthetic and then moves on is letting down what Thungni intended. They should be creating something as unique and special and designed for the user as they can.

On the subject of clashing doctrines, the Cult of Smednir commands that dwarves should only ever use tools they personally made themselves. Will we spark conflict with His Cult if we spread knowledge that means that rune smiths make machines that their apprentices use? If we invent runic tools regular craftsmen can use in Rune Metal 3B, does that make us a heretic defying the commandments of Smednir if we release them?
 
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Handing the rune to any Master that desires to learn it I think might actually have the least political undertones, because teaching it to only those that think similarly could make it look like Snorri is trying to create his own faction, but teaching it to even the most conservative or radical Master that wants it would not increase the power of those who think like him alone, and instead would give the impression that he merely wants to help other dawi as much as he can, which most Runelords would be far more approving of.
That's not the consideration being made here. The consideration is "How close do they adhere to this method of use: Teach to apprentices only, use liberally" which is something radicals or conservatives can do, since Snorri is a radical and does it this way up until this vote.
 
I honestly figure going lax is a decently reasonable choice. The two main dangers of Forged Limb are the potential perception that Snorri's using it to create a subsidiary organization around himself, and the potential clash between Valayan and Thungni-aligned organizations. Thing is, that second one seems to me to be predicated on the demands of the Valayans only being concentrated on the runesmiths who know it. If the knowledge were to be disseminated so that every runesmifh knew it (perhaps by publicly asking Thungni's opinion of it at Rhunkalbrogg should he show up again, thus legitimizing it in the eyes of the runelords), the demand would be less per individual runesmith, thus avoiding blatant breaches of the Rule of Pride.
 
I think you gave this impression off due to the wording of the middling option, where you claimed Snorri would only give it those "wielding the rune responsibly and a similar disposition to Snorri", and people hyper focused on the first part. This statement kind of implies that he doesn't think the Master Runesmiths that don't make the cut would necessarily be responsible. So there may be less cause for concern if you edited the option a little?
Youre right. I'll edit it.
 
Remind me, is Thungni still around? Because honestly, if we can make our case to him... this is literally a rune he didn't conceive of. One that's purpose runs headlong into the Rule of Pride going the other way.
I highly doubt that Thungni didn't come up with Forged Limb to a degree given he coughed up Waking from nowhere. Now using it is a different question, but I highly doubt we've surpassed the Ancestor of Runes in Runes.
 
Yeah. The mountain of reasons for which to keep it slow on the one side and the risks if it goes buggery, compared to the benefits of doing it fast don't add up well for me in terms of spreading it quickly.

Among other things, even the most stringent options is still 8 more lineages of runesmiths to add it to. With Snorri's that's 9, which is like 8 or more new runesmiths every century or more as they spread. It also sets the tone for how we're going to teach people going forward, which is a process that will likely be automated and abstracted into the background, so I'd expect that we'd be teaching more than these 8 as time goes on. And that is a trickle no doubt there, but its a trickle which spreads beyond the borders of Snorri and Kraka Drakk into many holds. Plus, those master runesmiths who we teach it to, could trade it to others and make their own trickles.
I am actually honestly not sure. Soulcake has remarked several times that the issue with the spread of the rune is when Snorri looks like he is making runesmiths dance to his tune. By selecting candidates that are very much like him and would use the rune like him, this would actually become true, in a roundabout way? I don't know, maybe i am being silly, but it seems a possibility?
 
None of these will lead to an immediate bad end, it's a question of how it interacts with all your previous choices. I won't spell out those interactions for you but I can be clearer by what I mean in the vote itself.

Stringent would mean these are Dwarfs Snorri believes are most alike with him in terms of thought and action. They will be the most likely to mirror how Snorri acts.

Middling would mean these are Dwarfs Snorri is only mostly sure they'll use it the same way he has been.

Lax is a bit different. It would mean that Snorri considers any Dwarf who has attained the rank of Master Runesmith perfectly capable of using this Rune.

I must stress, you'll know if something is gonna go bad end or not, and the journey matters as much as the destination so to speak.

So for stringent, these would be Dwarfs who treat the Rune exactly as Snorri does. Which as of RN is "Teach only your apprentices, use the Rune Liberally"

The more lax you are the more divergent they may be in how they use the Rune. They could be hyper conservative and follow the Rule of Pride, or do as you do. But it also means they have different criteria for who they teach the Rune to, would they teach anyone or would they be super selective? That sort of stuff.

So thats basically it.
So so more clarification about the Rune of Forged limb Vote.

By how you act, I'll lay it out like this.

So as of Turn 37 Snorri is treating the Rune as something to teach to only his apprentices but use liberally. Stringent would mean Snorri is sure these Masters will do the same and you can extrapolate from there.
Ah. That's... actually kind of different from what I was picturing, then.

That, in fact, makes it sound like the "Collectivization or other upheaval of Runesmithing and tradition" might come about from Stringent! ... If, that is, we later choose to take Snorri down the line of radicalism.

Because, if Stringent isn't the "only teach the best and most worthy and skilled" but instead rather "teach only who think the most like you", then... That means if Snorri becomes the sort of person who'd rabble-rouse or make radical changes or things, then... that means the people he teaches the rune to, might also.

... Guh.

In fact, Stringent + "A bighuge dollop of fame such as from, say, a very notable deed?" might be what causes troubles.

As it would look like Snorri is trying to impose his own views on Runesmiths. ><

Ugh. This is... troubling to consider.

In fact, it sounds like it might be better to go Middling or Lax. As Lax is just "a Master Runesmith is considered worthy of using this Normal (non-Master Rune) Rune."

Whereas Stringent is "Snorri picks only like-minded people."

I thought Stringent/Middling/Lax was a something else, but it turns out I may have been getting it... something like backwards or orthogonal to what it's actually like. Yikes.


... The problem is that this feels like it contradicts the earlier discussions of the topic? And even when it came up in-universe, with Snerra bringing it up? Like, Snorri was worried about what Snerra might do, and...

... I'm no longer so sure of what the effects of Stringent/Middling/Lax would be, as I was at the start.


The only thing I am sure of, is that the "Release the method now or later?" is a question of "How much does Snorri want to F-L-E-X before his fellow Runelords?" and affects how much fame and influence Snorri gets.
 
Yeah, it looks like there's two axis on the Rune vote. The first is how liberal do we want to look at spreading secret knowledge. This has Stringent safest and Lax most dangerous.

The second axis is how much do we want to look like we're pushing a political agenda of anyone who receives this rune must help the Valayans 'heal' the crippled. In this case it's the inverse, where Lax is the safest and Stringent the most dangerous.

And honestly, I'm a lot more worried about the second axis than the former as the former will cause loss of prestige and standing but not create the risk of asplintering of Dwarves society
 
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I think we should go with "Stringent." Not middling, and not lax, but stringent. The traditional choice. The safe choice. I don't want to cause problems for anyone. (And, y'know what? I'm not convinced that the Karaz Ankor's current traditions need radical change "or else we're headed towards diminishment or tragedy" -- you know what caused the tragedy of canon's timeline? Tragedy. The War of Vengeance and the Time of Woes. That was what caused the problems. So I'm not swayed by arguments of "We should do something radical and forge new traditions." We can forge new traditions if/when we create Alchemy or something.
:) :) :)
Any other rune and I'd probably agree with you I love our 8/8 radical/traditionalist standing, however... this is the Mrune of forged limb this isn't a rune that will only help individual bearers of an axe or something, like that one master runepriest who'd "do anything to get it for the sake of his family" this rune will radically change the lives of whomever learns and benefits from it trickling down to whomever those people help with their newly restored limbs. Hell just look at the effect it has had on the north as a whole.

This rune helps dwarves as a whole and as such should be shared as freely as possible IMO.
 
I highly doubt that Thungni didn't come up with Forged Limb to a degree given he coughed up Waking from nowhere. Now using it is a different question, but I highly doubt we've surpassed the Ancestor of Runes in Runes.

Whilst I doubt it as well it strikes me that Thungni presumably had to create pretty much everything from scratch, even being himself that must have taken him millennia, as that's the whole point of having been able to stand on the shoulders of giants and even with an apprentice master system they don't have to reinvent the wheel everytime because the training methodolgy will have been improved over the thousands of years involved.

Thungni may well be the smartest, most talented runelord in existence with no direct peers but that doesn't change the fact that his time isn't infinite.


Since when is trying to do things right 'boring or silly'? And what's the point in suffering a hard journey when the easier option is right there?

That aside it's pretty hypocritical to accuse people of blowing things out of proportion only to then accuse them of thinking you're preferred option is an inevitable bad end, when that's clearly not what we're saying. It's a risk. It's not that it can't work out, we just don't see the point in taking that risk.

EDIT: That said, with Soul clarifying the vote I can see some of the appeal for Lax.


Not actually interested in Lax, I'm going to vote for the middle ground. I view that as the option least likely to lead to serious long term consequences as this decision is multi-faceted, whilst not being completely free of risk.
 
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And the Cult of Smednir commands that dwarves should only ever use tools they personally made themselves. Will we spark conflict with His Cult if we spread knowledge that means that rune smiths make machines that their apprentices use?
No.

The cult of Smednir does not command their followers to ensure other dwarves follow the tenants of their cult. Since Runesmiths aren't part of the Cult of Smednir, there won't be a conflict between the two.

Conflicts between the cults occur when the tenants of one cult indicate that they need to interact and request aid from another cult to help the most amount of dwarves and the members of that cult won't give that aid because of their own religious tenants. That's where the conflict occurs.
 
I dont think responsible use is the issue here. I think the issue is more economical. To put it bluntly, what's got better performance, a steel limb, or a gromril one? Who can afford the latter? How many fancy extra features can you add in? How does this affect the cost? How will the quality of one's forged limb affect their career prospects? At what point will a Smith who HAS such a limb, and as such can perform at a higher margin, be favored over one who does not?
 
Without the traditions sharply limiting the ability to actually produce necessary items, the Dwarves could have facetanked the War of Vengeance easily simply by dint of having armies with Master Runes on their gear.
The most famous example of a Dwarf ignoring the rule of pride literally went mad as a result to my knowledge so those traditions are there for a reason and some of those reasons are even good ones. Besides, that master runes are still incredibly expensive and time-consuming so even if the rule of pride didn't exist the Dwarfs wouldn't be walking around with armies in armor imbued with master runes.

[ ] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
[ ] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [ ] Stringent: Only the most skilled, the most alike with your own thoughts and beliefs. 8 Of the two dozen will be taught.

Personally, this has my vote I want to keep storing political capital for when we release alchemy to the world and stringent does that best well still allowing us to help people.
 
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I think Stringent is a bad idea as from my understanding the thing that would make this bad for us is if we look like we're forcing those who learn the Rune to use it as we tell them to, like using it liberally is a requirement of learning it. If we only pick those who will use it as we do that doesn't really look great.

Lax however is simply us teaching those who would like to learn how to make the Rune no different then any other Rune. If someone makes a stink about it what are they going to say? They came to us to learn how to make the Rune and we didn't tell them how to use it.
 
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