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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I think that everyone needs to take a minute and chill. Soulcake was editing the post again, because the whole "responsibility" thing is getting taken WAY out of context from what he meant.
 
Neptune said:
Anyway for me it's pretty clear that lax is my prefered choice. These are all Master Runesmiths, who are each acknowledged by their order to be exemplars of their craft and they should be treated just so. It's been mentioned plenty of times that runes have been freely given out if they were valuble enough; and this is more than amply demonstrated with the upcoming Conclave where Snorri both gives out a new rune, a Master Rune, as well as a complete schismatic to create gromril chain. The latter is just so far beyond just giving a normal rune out it's beyond compare.

Then as Soulcake mentioned we should examine Snorri's actions in the past, as well as the ones in the future. So example 1; what has Snorri done when Master Runesmiths have approached him seeking to learn or trade before? Answer: traded with every single one of them. Example 2; what happened when Snorri discovered the Master Rune of Purification, and a method to create Adamant? Answer: he shared it out. The same is likely going to happen with the gromril chain, and further more Akazit itself.

Finally it should be noted that Snorri's nickname is Giftgiver. A knowledge is just as valuable a gift as any other, and frankly this is what those with the title of Runelord should be doing to push the craft forwards. It also doesn't run afoul of the main hindrance prior, of Snorri forcing his view point of how things should be onto other members of his cult and Apprenticeship >> Master lineages. Some of these Master Runesmiths will think like he does, some will be even more conservative; but as Master Runesmiths in their own right this is very much a decision that rests upon their own shoulders.
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He's never actually traded with Master Runesmiths, just Runelords as far as I can recall and a large part of the Master Rune of Purification is how it hasn't appeared on more typical rune trades since he doesn't understand it. It only appeared on the Brotherhood side of things because of mutual interest and discussion of our adamant making methods.
 
Silver719 said:
I dont think responsible use is the issue here. I think the issue is more economical. To put it bluntly, what's got better performance, a steel limb, or a gromril one? Who can afford the latter? How many fancy extra features can you add in? How does this affect the cost? How will the quality of one's forged limb affect their career prospects? At what point will a Smith who HAS such a limb, and as such can perform at a higher margin, be favored over one who does not?
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...Silver, Forged Limb isn't "Upgrade existing limbs" it's "Replace busted to hell and back limbs". We're millennia off a Six Million Gorl Dawi situation.
 
Honestly, my ooc reason to avoid Lax is because I want to give the Engineers Guild as big a chance as possible to complete their completely mechanical version of the limbs.

The way I see it, if the Forged Limb becomes too much of a lpw hanging fruit, it might cause the Emgineer Guild to stop their effort on that mechanical limb because why waste effort on a soluotion for a solved problem right?
 
Honestly, when you get down to it the whole conflict is confusing for one reason: Valaya is Thungni's mom. Why didn't they hash this out ages ago? And by hash this out I mean she'd have told him how it was going to be and he'd have said "Yes, ma", because I do not see Valaya bending on the matter of helping dwarves if it was at all a discussion.
Sir LagsAlot said:
The most famous example of a Dwarf ignoring the rule of pride literally went mad as a result to my knowledge so those traditions are there for a reason and some of those reasons are even good ones. Besides, that master runes are still incredibly expensive and time-consuming so even if the rule of pride didn't exist the Dwarfs wouldn't be walking around with armies in master runes.
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The whole reason ignoring the rule is associated with madness is because of the strength of the social taboo, not the other way around.
 
For the Rune of Forged Limb itself, I'm more into Lax teaching requirements to be honest
-<insert oprah winfrey meme of "You get Runes and everyone get Runes" here>
-It's fitting of Snorri to teach Runesmiths who have at least a couple centuries of experience a Rune that will inevitable help dwarfkind in the long run
 
Thor's Twin said:
No.

The cult of Smednir does not command their followers to ensure other dwarves follow the tenants of their cult. Since Runesmiths aren't part of the Cult of Smednir, there won't be a conflict between the two.

Conflicts between the cults occur when the tenants of one cult indicate that they need to interact and request aid from another cult to help the most amount of dwarves and the members of that cult won't give that aid because of their own religious tenants. That's where the conflict occurs.
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The Cult of Valaya doesn't command that other dwarves follow its commandments either.

They, do clearly, however, think that they are moral rules that other dwarves should live up to. Why wouldn't the Cult of Smednir be the same?
 
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Garlak said:
I thought Stringent/Middling/Lax was a something else, but it turns out I may have been getting it... something like backwards or orthogonal to what it's actually like. Yikes.


... The problem is that this feels like it contradicts the earlier discussions of the topic? And even when it came up in-universe, with Snerra bringing it up? Like, Snorri was worried about what Snerra might do, and...

... I'm no longer so sure of what the effects of Stringent/Middling/Lax would be, as I was at the start.
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Pyro Hawk said:
Yeah, it looks like there's two axis on the Rune vote. The first is how liberal do we want to look at spreading secret knowledge. This has Stringent safest and Lay most dangerous.

The second axis is how much do we want to look like we're pushing a political agenda of anyone who receives this rune must help the Valayans 'heal' the crippled. In this case it's the inverse, where Lax is the safest and Stringent the most dangerous.

And honestly, I'm a lot more worried about the second axis than the former as the former will cause loss of prestige and standing but not create the risk of asplintering of Dwarves society
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My take is that Stringent has the highest risk of appearing to be collectivization, while Lax has the highest risk of schism (the Rune ends up in the hands of a one-use-only Runesmith, a Valayan pushes them to use it repeatedly, Badness Ensues.)
 
ArchAIngel said:
...Silver, Forged Limb isn't "Upgrade existing limbs" it's "Replace busted to hell and back limbs". We're millennia off a Six Million Gorl Dawi situation.
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Not really. A dawi with a set of Mastercrafted Adamant Limbs, or more, will outperform a Dawi of flesh and blood, all other things equal.

Six million gorl Dawi is an immediate possibility, just a matter of cost and finding an appropriate subject. It will only become more so once the rune hits wider circulation, and develops in response to an ever changing open market.
 
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I really think Lax is the way to go as it's the most unbiased way of teaching the Rune. The only requirement is that they're a Master Rune Smith and thus worthy of the Rune based off of their skill level.
 
Silver719 said:
Not really. A dawi with a set of Mastercrafted Adamant Limbs, or more, will outperform a Dawi of flesh and blood, all other things equal.

Six million gorl Dawi is an immediate possibility, just a matter of cost and finding an appropriate subject.
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Okay, but what does that have to do with anything? That's not the danger from passing on the rune of forged limb. The issue is entirely due to the rule of pride and the potential for conflict between the cults of Valaya and Thungni and the appearance that we're commanding other rune smiths that haven't been apprenticed to us.
 
065tdsa said:
The whole reason ignoring the rule is associated with madness is because of the strength of the social taboo, not the other way around.
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The last guy to spam the same master runes again, and again, and again goes mad (increasingly and obviously so with each successive repetition even) and your response is well that's just a social taboo.

Just what.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Okay, but what does that have to do with anything? That's not the danger from passing on the rune of forged limb. The issue is entirely due to the rule of pride and the potential for conflict between the cults of Valaya and Thungni and the appearance that we're commanding other rune smiths that haven't been apprenticed to us.
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I fail to see the issue, there. Rhunkalbrogg is 3 turns away, bring it up then.
 
Sir LagsAlot said:
The last guy to spam the same master runes again, and again, and again goes mad (increasingly and obviously so with each successive repetition even) and your response is well that's just a social taboo.

Just what.
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That's because it is? The rule of pride is a social and religious obligation not literally a facet of the world that gain saking destroys your mind.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Okay, but what does that have to do with anything? That's not the danger from passing on the rune of forged limb. The issue is entirely due to the rule of pride and the potential for conflict between the cults of Valaya and Thungni and the appearance that we're commanding other rune smiths that haven't been apprenticed to us.
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We arent commanding them, just teaching Masters that asked, be they traditional or radical (If Lax is taken)
 
MrHobbit said:
Conservative Runelords are going to see it being spread and are going to get extremely suspicious.
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Not really, the possible political schism is lessened by going with lax. You don't have to be one of Snorri's lackeys or have something really good to pry the rune out of his hands. If you want to go full blown conservative: do so. Want to be like Snorri and make thousands of the thing; you can do that too. There is less chance of problems because there are more sources for the rune, and less imposition by snorri on how the rule of pride should work. How you use depends on the dwarf, rather than only being available to a radical following Snorri's ideas.

Illusion of Eris said:
because teaching it to only those that think similarly could make it look like Snorri is trying to create his own faction, but teaching it to even the most conservative or radical Master that wants it would not increase the power of those who think like him alone, and instead would give the impression that he merely wants to help other dawi as much as he can, which most Runelords would be far more approving of.
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Very much this. Sharing is a Valaya thing to do, and it does help set a precedent for how available the rune could be. If Snorri has the sole criteria as skill the it is much more likely to be shared (with that criteria) as it is not deemed secret or for a very specific type of dwarf.
 
TimEd said:
Honestly, my ooc reason to avoid Lax is because I want to give the Engineers Guild as big a chance as possible to complete their completely mechanical version of the limbs.

The way I see it, if the Forged Limb becomes too much of a lpw hanging fruit, it might cause the Emgineer Guild to stop their effort on that mechanical limb because why waste effort on a soluotion for a solved problem right?
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Given that they are still runes and can only be produced by a limited pool of people at a non-trivial(to people who aren't Snorri) cost, and this will at most expand this to 24 more people and their apprentices, I don't think we're exactly going to hit model T style mass production here. There should still be plenty of motive.

As an aside, is that even possible? Runes get to bypass the issues involved, but my understanding as that while non-Runesmith dwarves still make cool shit, the level of technology even millenia down the line in the setting is nowhere near advanced enough to do that.
 
Silver719 said:
Not really. A dawi with a set of Mastercrafted Adamant Limbs, or more, will outperform a Dawi of flesh and blood, all other things equal.

Six million gorl Dawi is an immediate possibility, just a matter of cost and finding an appropriate subject. It will only become more so once the rune hits wider circulation, and develops in response to an ever changing open market.
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What you are missing is these are Dwarves, not humans, so they'll never willingly replace their limbs with better ones because their existing limbs are perfectly fine thankyouverymuch,grumblegrumbletheyouthoftodaygrumble. Different psychology, Dwarves do not like change or novelty.

There's also the fact that Dwarven bodies are ludicrously strong and a sufficiently old Dwarf could probably actually match or surpass Mastercrafted Adamant with his own limbs because everything about Dwarves improves when they get older.
 
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Alratan said:
The Cult of Valaya doesn't command that other dwarves follow its commandments either.
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Correct, but it does command that the followers of the cult follow the tenants. One of which is to do what is necessary to help as much as possible other dwarves in need. So, when followers of that cult follow the tenant and ask runesmiths for assistance in getting the necessary prosthetics to help dwarves those followers would be following the tenants of Valaya. When the runesmiths tell them that they won't make multiple rune of Forged Limb because of the rule of pride, they'll be following the rules of their cult.

However, since the rune of prosthetic would be necessary to help other dwarves as much as possible, the followers of the cult of Valaya would keep trying to get the runesmiths to make the forged limbs. The runesmiths, naturally, would tell them no because of their rule of pride. But the cult of Valaya would keep trying, the runesmiths would keep saying no, and this will cause tension between the two groups.

That tension is what we are trying to avoid here because it is in that tension that problems can erupt.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
That's because it is? The rule of pride is a social and religious obligation not literally a facet of the world that gain saking destroys your mind.
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Except we have a famous example of a Dwarf repeating the same master rune in quick succession excessively directly leading to madness so there's obviously a reason the tradition was put into place and seeing what happens when it's ignored to this extent makes it rather obvious to me that it's a decent tradition to have.

Like the madness that Dwarf experienced wasn't a social taboo his madness did not come about as a result of a social taboo it came about as a result of ignoring the rule of pride to an excessive degree.
 
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Silver719 said:
Not really. A dawi with a set of Mastercrafted Adamant Limbs, or more, will outperform a Dawi of flesh and blood, all other things equal.

Six million gorl Dawi is an immediate possibility, just a matter of cost and finding an appropriate subject. It will only become more so once the rune hits wider circulation, and develops in response to an ever changing open market.
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I honestly don't think most dawi would care that much.

We were talking about alternatives to Slayers before - this could be an interesting one. Going behind shaving most of your hair and dying what remains an unnatural shade to shaving your limbs off and replacing them with unyielding metal. Perhaps a dwarf's flesh was weak before, so they failed, but after making the ultimate sacrifice a new cyber-dwarf will fight the enemies of the dawi with no possibility of faltering.

Pretty unlikely, admittedly. I think it's more likely to happen by happenstance, such as a hero going up against a dragon and ending up with no limbs, eyes, or ears, and potentially missing a couple of internal organs. If runic prosthetics have developed enough by then if they then prove successful enough I could see it being emulated.
 
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I have edited the Vote regarding the Rune of Forged Limb.

from
[ ] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [ ] Stringent: Only the most skilled, the most alike with your own thoughts and beliefs. 8 Of the two dozen will be taught.
- [ ] Middling: Teach those you consider capable of wielding the Rune responsibly and are of a similar disposition to yourself. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.
- [ ] As lax as you can without dishonouring yourself. Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.

to

[ ] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [ ] Stringent: Teach those most alike with your own methodology in how to use and spread this Rune. 8 Of the two dozen will be taught.
- [ ] Middling: Teach those you consider reasonably sure to use and spread the rune as you do. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.
- [ ] Lax: Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.

and to be CLEAR. The methodology is solely in how Snorri IC is treating the Rune. That being, teach apprentices, use liberally. That's it. Thats all he can reliably ascertain.
>_> I won't lie to you guys, I'm seriously considering whether these votes are good for the long term health of the thread and whether I just let Snorri take over these decisions. Ach, a problem of my own doing.
 
Sir LagsAlot said:
Except we have a famous example of a Dwarf repeating the same master rune in quick succession excessively directly leading to madness so there's obviously a reason the tradition was put into place and seeing what happens when it's ignored to this extent makes it rather obvious to me that it's a decent tradition to have.
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Or Alaric the Mad was driven mad due to breaking a social obligation and spending a shit load of time experimenting on warpstone. The guy was mad before he made the Runefangs any way. Otherwise he'd have never taken the commision from the then High king to make the Runefangs for the Empire. I'd also point out under the rule set we're currently using and given it took multiple centuries Snorri would probably have been able to fulfil that commission with out falling a foul of his understanding of the rule of pride.
 
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