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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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mmgaballah said:
I think we should pick lax as the stringent option is more or less Snorri saying only a dwarf who will act do as I do will be taught this rune which is the biggest of all land mines as this come dangerously close to trespassing on runesmith autonomy while lax is Snorri teaching the rune and the runesmiths being left to there own devices to do there own thing if they decide to do like Snorri then great it not then not a problem at least the rune will spread
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Given we will be liable to be under scrutiny, criticisms, and blame if the people we teach the rune to mess up the relationship between the Cult of Valaya and the Cult of Thungni, being lax is not an attractive option at all. We need to make sure that those we teach won't cause schisms between the cults of the ancestors, and lax does not do that.
 
BelligerentGnu said:
So, here's the bit that's throwing me for a loop. It's not just skill that Snorri's excluding by, it's beliefs, and that's the bit that's super-dangerous to me. Snorri teaching only those who agree with him philosophically is kind of setting himself up as the head of a schism movement.

I think that the least dangerous option might actually be to go lax. Giving the rune to anyone who wants it says we're not trying to control what Runesmiths do with it. Conservatives are free to follow the rule of pride to the letter, only make Forged Limbs for the odd King now and then, etc.
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It's not beliefs. Its methodology as Soulcake outlines above you, he says that Stringent means it will be given to Master Runesmiths who will do:

soulcake said:
So for stringent, these would be Dwarfs who treat the Rune exactly as Snorri does. Which as of RN is "Teach only your apprentices, use the Rune Liberally"

The more lax you are the more divergent they may be in how they use the Rune. They could be hyper conservative and follow the Rule of Pride, or do as you do. But it also means they have different criteria for who they teach the Rune to, would they teach anyone or would they be super selective? That sort of stuff.
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MrHobbit said:
Snorri's Forged Limbs only have the Rune of Forged Limb on them.

And Runesmiths are above such petty technicalities.
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It's not exactly a petty technicality though? You're still having to make a custom piece of work each and every time, you can't just stamp the Rune onto a generic prosthetic and have it work properly. Heck, I would not be at all surprised if there were actually tiny differences in each and every iteration of the Rune of Forged Limb in order to properly attune it to it's intended wearer.

I mean, yes, there will be some Runesmiths who wouldn't go along with that idea, but I'm pretty sure they're wrong about the intended purpose of the Rule of Pride. It's meant to make you treat everything you create (or at a bare minimum everything with a Rune on it) as an individual piece of art worthy of the same degree of care in its making as any other piece of art, no matter how minor the intended use might seem. It's not meant to literally prevent you from ever using the same Rune on more than a handful of objects in your lifetime; at absolute most it's meant to encourage a true Runesmith/Runelord to diversify their craft so that they don't fall into a rut of making the same basic thing over and over again rather than pushing the bounds of their knowledge and expertise.
 
Are you going to call every lax Master Runesmiths learning and using Rune of Forged Limb stupid since they're Masters.
Using all Lax Master Runesmiths would contain different mindsets to Snorri, they not going be our groupies unlike all those in Middling with similar disposition to Stringent types.
 
MrHobbit said:
There is historical prescedent of Runelords releasing Runes to the general public if they are that important.

Thungni is the foremost example. While many of his children have released a Rune or two.

And before my words are inevitably twisted to mean something which they do not, the politics around the Rune of Forged Limb means that it would be a political hellscape and could potentially get the Cults of Valaya and Thungni pissed off at each other.
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As I mentioned, the Cult of Grungni probably cares about gromril chain as much or possibly much more than the Cult of Valaya cares about prosthetic limbs. You could easily imagine the priests of Grungni being pissed off if the Runesmiths don't share gromril chain across the Karaz Ankor. Prosthetic limbs aren't a famous part of Valaya's achievements, after all. Gromril chain is one of Grungi's.

There's historical precedent for general release, yes, but that exact same precedent didn't remove the risk of doing so with the Rune of Forged Limb.
 
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I am entirely unconcerned by the worst case scenario regarding the Rune of Forged Limb.

It is a hypothetical that I don't believe will ever come to pass and the concern over a warning to not be incredibly irresponsible, which we haven't been, is vastly disproportionate to the sheer good this Rune can do if spread.

[ ] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [ ] As lax as you can without dishonouring yourself. Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.

Doubt and fear should not come in the way of actually helping to heal the crippled.
 
main harm from the forged limbs was the mixing between the duties of the house of thrugni and valaya which would have caust inter cult strife I think IIRC from last time?
 
Thor's Twin said:
So, here is my going theory about why all seven ancestors' trinkets shone when we were working on the Gromril chain, I mean other than the amazing feat that is making gromril chain producible for our armor requests.

Grungni - A feat of craftsmanship only he had done before.

Grimnir - The will and focus to shoulder the difficulties and trials and achieve the objective

Valaya - The goal to lift the whole rather than to secret the prize away

Gazul - The shifting of fate and destiny to one that is better

Thungni - A working of runes in beautiful fashion to better work on the Rune Metal

Morgrim - A crafting of fine machinery to make it easier in achieving a particular result

Smednir - Crafting wonders of beauty with tools one created themselves


While I think that this is unlikely to be the reason that the trinkets shone, I still would like to envision that our efforts touch upon the workings of all seven ancestor gods.
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Actually, I think it's the mindset, of the ironclad conviction of Snorri to be the foundation for the future generations, of realizing and crystalizing the thought of not only accepting but glorying in the possibility that all of his works will be solely to the benefit of the future dawi, that he and his achievements will be a "mere" stepping stone to their successes rather than a burden of impossible expectations on them.

It is that eureka that has the collective Ancestor approval, as it has been implied that all of the Ancestors (and not just Valaya) want the next generation to equal them, and hopefully surpass them.

It is just that the beardlings get too easily discouraged by the (frankly ridicilous) heights Ancestors climbed to.

It is perhaps one of the biggest, if not the biggest, "Ancestor" moments that Snorri had in the whole quest so far.
 
Sidestepping the political debate for a moment, is there anyone that particularly wants to release the chain now? It's hard to tell with the thread moving so fast but all the people I've seen who didn't explicitly want to wait were mostly ambivalent.
 
soulcake said:
Generally yes, he cant know everything about them after all.
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BelligerentGnu said:
What if we use the cred we get as Chainmaker at the Rhunkalbrogg, to put a motion on the agenda?

That the Rune of Forged Limb and related prosthetic runes are so uniquely valuable to the Karaz Ankor that they should be considered an exception to the Rule of Pride.
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This idea is super intriguing to me.

Out of interest, what would Snorris thoughts be on the idea of floating this to the Runelord Conclave.

Are there any exceptions to the rule of pride at the moment, would Snorri view even thinking of this idea as giga-heretical?
 
Woltaire said:
it a pretty low risk one in my opinion other people are hyping up to be the beginning of a dawi civil war or cult schism though
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We've been told that it's the start of a possible schism, in character. So people are very, very worried about it. And reasonably so, really.
Deuterium Dawn said:
Sidestepping the political debate for a moment, is there anyone that particularly wants to release the chain now? It's hard to tell with the thread moving so fast but all the people I've seen who didn't explicitly want to wait were mostly ambivalent.
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I certainly have no interest in instant Standing spamming from it, we can get more later, and we're a Dawi, so unless there's a SUPER WAR in those next 4 turns, Snorri will be there to make the Runelords spook. There's no real reason to NOT wait.
 
HanEmpire said:
What's the harm in spreading the Prosthetic Rune?
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A potential schism in the relationship between the Cult of Thungni and the Cult of Valaya. Cult of Valaya instruct their followers to help others as much as possible, Cult of Thungni hold the rule of pride paramount (which depending on how you interpret it could change the amount of the same runework you are willing to do).

The effect, in essence, is that Cult of Valaya would do all they could to ensure that their patients got prosthetic rune work and many runesmiths of the more conservative bent would resist mightily in making the same runework over and over. This causes significant conflict between the two groups which has the potential to create schisms.

This is an unacceptable outcome. The source of the conflict could be traced all the way back to us and we would, either rightfully or not, have blame leveled against us because of our lack in foresight. It would also be needlessly destructive and hurtful to dwarf society who look up to both cults as paragons of what it means to be dwarves.
 
Alratan said:
I don't believe that, as that seems like a pretty shoddy job when they could serve their wielders much better with two other runes added.
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There has never been evidence of Snorri putting other Runes on them and doing that sort of thing might get the more conservatively minded Runesmiths questioning Snorri's commitment to the Rule of Pride.

Runesmiths are above rules lawyering.

The Sandman said:
It's not exactly a petty technicality though? You're still having to make a custom piece of work each and every time, you can't just stamp the Rune onto a generic prosthetic and have it work properly. Heck, I would not be at all surprised if there were actually tiny differences in each and every iteration of the Rune of Forged Limb in order to properly attune it to it's intended wearer.

I mean, yes, there will be some Runesmiths who wouldn't go along with that idea, but I'm pretty sure they're wrong about the intended purpose of the Rule of Pride. It's meant to make you treat everything you create (or at a bare minimum everything with a Rune on it) as an individual piece of art worthy of the same degree of care in its making as any other piece of art, no matter how minor the intended use might seem. It's not meant to literally prevent you from ever using the same Rune on more than a handful of objects in your lifetime; at absolute most it's meant to encourage a true Runesmith/Runelord to diversify their craft so that they don't fall into a rut of making the same basic thing over and over again rather than pushing the bounds of their knowledge and expertise.
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It is a petty technicality. soulcake has even mentioned a similar thing. Trying to combo a Master Rune with 500 different Runes is Rules lawyering and neither Runesmiths or Snorri would dot hat.

Yes, you go ahead and try to tell the four hundred year-old Runesmith that they are interpreting their religion wrong.

I'll just stand over here.

Alratan said:
As I mentioned, the Cult of Grungni probably cares about gromril chain as much or possibly much more than the Cult of Valaya cares about prosthetic limbs. You could easily imagine the priests of Grungni being pissed off if the Runesmiths don't share gromril chain across the Karaz Ankor.
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No they won't. They would be impressed that someone had actually managed to crack gromril chain. The Cult of Grungni doesn't have a scripture saying to kill people who know how to do it. While the Cult of Valaya and Thungni have two conflicting scriptures.

Cult of Valaya: Always provide aid to a wounded or ailing Dwarf
Cult of Thungni: the Rule of Pride

Conservative Runelords are going to see it being spread and are going to get extremely suspicious.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
This idea is super intriguing to me.

Out of interest, what would Snorris thoughts be on the idea of floating this to the Runelord Conclave.

Are there any exceptions to the rule of pride at the moment, would Snorri view even thinking of this idea as giga-heretical?
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If that kind of option gets on the table, we're only gonna get it once.

I say we use it for the alchemy reveal, rather than the Forged Limb rune.
 
BungieONI said:
So its a couple of interlocked problems, mostly related to optics and what it looks like Snorri is doing to others.

The first is that if Snorri starts spreading it to other runesmiths and recruiting them into his arm theme scheme, then it leads to an appearance of collectivization which is an issue because it can be seen as Snorri making a statement that his vision is superior to Thungni's. Which is heresy of the highest order in a lot of runesmith's minds and it also interfere's with the strong sense of self-determination in Runesmith culture. This can be circumvented by just, only teaching it to his apprentices. No one is going to touch the master-apprentice relationship with a ten foot pole if they can help it, so they might grumble but have no standing to actually complain. The options here are in my opinion a gradient of how much grounds they have to complain: Lax the worst, Stringent the best in this case since only some can even legitimately complain and the complaints will mostly be intense scrutiny applied to Snorri's reasoning for his choices.

The second comes down to the rule of pride stricture of the cult of Thungni and the Valayan stricture to give aid to all dwarves. Valayans will put some pressure onto runesmiths, but runesmiths will push back, and there is in the combination of this and the other problem I outlined above the room for a schism if someone spreads it too fast and breaks something. Stringent mostly avoids that problem since they are qualified for it by being like Snorri, who has been exceptionally careful about this.
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Thanks. 👍
In a perfect world we would find a way for the Guild of Engineers to replicate our fear through mundane means ala Fullmetal Alchemist. Alas that isn't a possibility, yet.

It was said, that the impact of our decision will be influenced by our prior decisions and conduct. This means, that the Runelords, who were in attendance at the meeting, have at least some knowledge of Snorri's character and motivations. Granted, this doesn't help much.

Are we obligated to teach them at all? It would go against his character and will likely never be chosen, but what, if we just said no? It seems really OOC and would go against almost everything in the update, but it is a viable choice.

Declare the Chain at the conclave and then talk with the other Runelords about it, before spreading it? I feel like they should have a say as well.

[ ] [Masters]: Do not teach them the Rune of Forged Limb

The conclave is only a few decades away and there will be enough bombshells to easily bring this through, if we are smart about it. If we hold off now and wait, while using the reveal of the Dawi Zharr and the Gromril Chain, we can possibly convince more Runelords to accepts the Rune of forged limb and its wide spreaded use.

Making the use of Gromril chain widespread goes into the same direction.
Hell, we might even get it as a concession. It doesn't fit Snorri, but it would be more viable then just doing it without any kind of input.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Given the clarification by Soulcake it's pretty clear the "Stringent" only crowd are blowing this way out of proportion not even the "Lax as can be" option is going to be inevitable bad end, so this just screams that people are afraid to have any negative consequence or events to react and adapt to and frankly that's boring and silly, if the path is always level and smooth what was the point in the journey?
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Since when is trying to do things right 'boring or silly'? And what's the point in suffering a hard journey when the easier option is right there?

That aside it's pretty hypocritical to accuse people of blowing things out of proportion only to then accuse them of thinking you're preferred option is an inevitable bad end, when that's clearly not what we're saying. It's a risk. It's not that it can't work out, we just don't see the point in taking that risk.

EDIT: That said, with Soul clarifying the vote I can see some of the appeal for Lax.
 
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I think if were super lax about it, we might end up with some social stratification where the wealthier dwarves with better connections have better cybernetics-sorry, runed limbs. We might also get some 'THE FLESH IS WEEEEEAAAAK' nonsense and non-standard physiology.
 
Handing the rune to any Master that desires to learn it I think might actually have the least political undertones, because teaching it to only those that think similarly could make it look like Snorri is trying to create his own faction, but teaching it to even the most conservative or radical Master that wants it would not increase the power of those who think like him alone, and instead would give the impression that he merely wants to help other dawi as much as he can, which most Runelords would be far more approving of.
 
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