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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Hmm, a thought, we know Gromril and Adamant provide a boost to the power of Runes and it is their inherent nature of Order within them that does it. I'm sure that I'm also not the only one that noticed that Chamon is the Wind of Metal and Order. It honestly seems to me like Adamant is literally solidified Chamon or that it is at least heavily infused with it.

We also know that Runes draw on the Winds to power themselves so what if we could somehow make it so that when empowering our Runes we only draw on the Wind of Chamon? Seems like it could be a good way to further increase the power of our Runes.
 
Jreengus said:
Ok so I've done some thinking about this request. It is due end of turn 40, we get our 5th action back turn 40 so if we took this the latest we could start would be 5 (+3) actions turn 40 plus 3 (+2) actions turn 39 for total 13 actions completing it with 1 overflow. If we focus fully on the simple hold action turn 32 and put in at least 1 apprentice action to complete it that turn we get 3 actions turn 33 then our apprentices leave and we have 4 actions turns 34-38 and 1 action turn 39 before we have to start this request. So what if we devote that time to developing gromril chain?

The gromril chain action triggers both Student of the odd and soul of the earth so altogether we would have effectively 41 actions* to spend on it before we have to start the request. That should be enough to unlock gromril chain, maybe we wouldn't be able to make it fast enough to enough to use it on all 40 suits but even just 1 suit with gromril chain would be an incredible way to announce our new ability and every extra suit is another valkyrie out in the Karaz Ankor spreading knowledge of what we've achieved beyond the north. And if we do manage to make all 40 suits incorporating gromril chain I think that would deed worthy, definitely legendary maybe even mythical considering we'd have achieved what even Smednir and Thungni couldn't.** Plus and this cannot be overstated I really want to see Moira's reaction to us delivering a bunch of suits with gromril mail and acting like it ain't nothing.

*3+2 Actions turn 33, 4+3 actions x5 turns 34-38, 1 action turn 39

**I'm half expecting chain to require runes so Smednir never had a chance and for Thungni to reveal he can make chain but has some reason for not doing so.
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Might work. I'm somewhat doubtful 41 is enough given the absurdity that is Gromril Chain, but its worth a try and doesn't prevent us from doing the request, though the proposed action scheme does leave the Prince's request to be done by someone else. I'm not as keen on that since I as discussed previously have an item in mind for him specifically that's meant to both fit him and explore combos in the talismanic category using ancestor rune pairs. But's that probably like 39-40 actions instead of 41, so it doesn't matter too much I think.

UlseDovThur said:
Hmm, a thought, we know Gromril and Adamant provide a boost to the power of Runes and it is their inherent nature of Order within them that does it. I'm sure that I'm also not the only one that noticed that Chamon is the Wind of Metal and Order. It honestly seems to me like Adamant is literally solidified Chamon or that it is at least heavily infused with it.

We also know that Runes draw on the Winds to power themselves so what if we could somehow make it so that when empowering our Runes we only draw on the Wind of Chamon? Seems like it could be a good way to further increase the power of our Runes.
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If we're only drawing on the Wind of Chamon, we weaken ourselves since Chamon's volume and density varies from point to point and is sometimes not very available such as deep in a forest (Ghur/Ghyran) or atop a high mountain peak(Hysh). Picking up all of them essentially smooths out any point to point issues.
 
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LaggPlaguedDuke said:
This actually sounds like a really fun idea and we could test feasibility of it in two turns before having to take the request. Unveiling Snorri's ability to make gromril chain by using it for armor that will be used across the Karaz Ankor is probably the single easiest way for Snorri to show off that he's done something no one else besides Grungni's done. Might even succeed in getting Smednir to show up.

We're going to have 4 total apprentice actions since we have them turn 32/33. Two will go to Yorri's request but we can put two on the Valkyrie armor bringing us down to 10 total if we're willing to take the request without knowing whether we can mass produce chain by turn 39. The rune metal pts 1-4 took 32 actions to get to consistent adamant production. Let's say it takes like 30 actions for chain and 20 to just have a single usable bit of it.

Turn 32: Hold request, Yorri's request
Turn 33: 3(5) actions into rune metal b pt 1 (3 left)
Turn 34: 4(6) actions into rune metal b pt 1 (3 overflow in pt 2)
Turn 35: We'd have to decide whether to take the armor commission or not at this point. The overflow into pt2 means we should have a good guess at whether it'll be 3 or 4 parts for actual production. Theoretically we're at 30-11=19 more actions to go with turns 35,36,37,38 each being able to put 6 effective actions into it a turn.

My guess would be 5 total turns of pure rune metal research to get to gromril chain production unless it ends up being even more difficult than adamant. We have 6 turns before having to swap to the armor to meet the deadline. Theoretically we could do all of this and even Gimli's commission but would have to ignore literally everything else. Last time a major research spree could have happened, Arm them and the retinue showed up and took up like 5 turns.

But hey, the sheer flex of putting chain into elite veteren armor used all over the Karaz Ankor is real and at least two turns of research into it should be doable.
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We can't put two apprentice actions into the Valkyrie armour and the Yorri request without forcing us to take an extra action on the hold. The hold needs 6 simple actions which we can do next turn with all 3 of our actions +2 from PLNO + 1 apprentice. If we skip on the apprentice action we'd need to spend another action turn 33 which would reduce the progress to chain by 2 points!

Personally I'd like to take the Valaya request regardless of whether we can complete chain for it I think the +1 standing is well worth it, but finishing up 1b should at least lets us see whether it's worth holding off on the armour or just getting it done and focusing on the chain.

BungieONI said:
Might work. I'm somewhat doubtful 41 is enough given the absurdity that is Gromril Chain, but its worth a try and doesn't prevent us from doing the request, though the proposed action scheme does leave the Prince's request to be done by someone else. I'm not as keen on that since I as discussed previously have an item in mind for him specifically that's meant to both fit him and explore combos in the talismanic category using ancestor rune pairs.
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Yeh I'm expecting 41 points to give us "you can make chain, but really slowly" hence why I suggested we might only be able to do chain on 1 suit, but hey 1 suit with gromril chain and a combo including the master rune of valaya would be a nice bonus to what they ordered it might even be enough to give us +2 standing instead of +1. As long as we're planning to do both it doesn't hurt to take the request and start down the tree to see how doable it is then we can decide how we want to go forward.
 
Jreengus said:
Yeh I'm expecting 41 points to give us "you can make chain, but really slowly" hence why I suggested we might only be able to do chain on 1 suit, but hey 1 suit with gromril chain and a combo including the master rune of valaya would be a nice bonus to what they ordered it might even be enough to give us +2 standing instead of +1. As long as we're planning to do both it doesn't hurt to take the request and start down the tree to see how doable it is then we can decide how we want to go forward.
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To be completely 100% honest I expect the first part of 1b to be Snorri mostly just staring at his gromril internally going "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!" as he tries everything and fails.
 
Jreengus said:
We can't put two apprentice actions into the Valkyrie armour and the Yorri request without forcing us to take an extra action on the hold. The hold needs 6 simple actions which we can do next turn with all 3 of our actions +2 from PLNO + 1 apprentice. If we skip on the apprentice action we'd need to spend another action turn 33 which would reduce the progress to chain by 2 points!

Personally I'd like to take the Valaya request regardless of whether we can complete chain for it I think the +1 standing is well worth it, but finishing up 1b should at least lets us see whether it's worth holding off on the armour or just getting it done and focusing on the chain.


Yeh I'm expecting 41 points to give us "you can make chain, but really slowly" hence why I suggested we might only be able to do chain on 1 suit, but hey 1 suit with gromril chain and a combo including the master rune of valaya would be a nice bonus to what they ordered it might even be enough to give us +2 standing instead of +1. As long as we're planning to do both it doesn't hurt to take the request and start down the tree to see how doable it is then we can decide how we want to go forward.
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Haha woops I mathed that hold action wrong. In that case we could just hold off on picking up the request until turn 35 where we should have a better idea of how long the chain will take. turn 39/40 is all it takes for the armor either way so the apprentice actions don't matter too much there. It would be nice if the chain ends with it being mass produceable rather than like adamant.
 
BungieONI said:
Might work. I'm somewhat doubtful 41 is enough given the absurdity that is Gromril Chain, but its worth a try and doesn't prevent us from doing the request, though the proposed action scheme does leave the Prince's request to be done by someone else. I'm not as keen on that since I as discussed previously have an item in mind for him specifically that's meant to both fit him and explore combos in the talismanic category using ancestor rune pairs. But's that probably like 39-40 actions instead of 41, so it doesn't matter too much I think.


If we're only drawing on the Wind of Chamon, we weaken ourselves since Chamon's volume and density varies from point to point and is sometimes not very available such as deep in a forest (Ghur/Ghyran) or atop a high mountain peak(Hysh). Picking up all of them essentially smooths out any point to point issues.
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Well yes it would be less abundant in places but does that really matter for Runes though? My understanding is that when a Rune is empowered it is filled with the Winds and then that power is locked in place within the Rune and once it's set it's set and doesn't need to continue to draw on the Winds.

So would it matter if the area the Rune is in isn't abundant in Chamon if all the Chamon the Rune needs is already within it?
 
Compressing the Mountainsouled Combo would potentially allow us to create some very interesting sets of armour for the Valkyrie Guard's champions, even if we wanted the Rune of Valaya on each.

Mountainsouled + Valaya + Preservation would be an interesting combination.
 
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UlseDovThur said:
Well yes it would be less abundant in places but does that really matter for Runes though? My understanding is that when a Rune is empowered it is filled with the Winds and then that power is locked in place within the Rune and once it's set it's set and doesn't need to continue to draw on the Winds.

So would it matter if the area the Rune is in isn't abundant in Chamon if all the Chamon the Rune needs is already within it?
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The abundance of the Winds is important yeah. Its something that's noticeable to Runesmiths, as you move further north, where the winds are more abundant you get runes that do better. And runes don't lock up a set amount, they continue to draw on the winds afterwards, that's how our smelters work.
 
BungieONI said:
The abundance of the Winds is important yeah. Its something that's noticeable to Runesmiths, as you move further north, where the winds are more abundant you get runes that do better. And runes don't lock up a set amount, they continue to draw on the winds afterwards, that's how our smelters work.
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I'm not sure we know that. We know that our smelters work like that, but other runes may well work differently. The description of how regular dwarven runes work in the RPG Realms of Sorcery certainly suggests that the magic is imbued at the time of creation and that's it.

It could well be that our smelter is just an example of a mythic item whose strength waxes and wanes with the Winds, and regular runes are non-mythic items that don't. There certainly doesn't seem to be any suggestion that dwarven runes left near the equator for a long time get weaker.
 
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UlseDovThur said:
Hmm, a thought, we know Gromril and Adamant provide a boost to the power of Runes and it is their inherent nature of Order within them that does it. I'm sure that I'm also not the only one that noticed that Chamon is the Wind of Metal and Order. It honestly seems to me like Adamant is literally solidified Chamon or that it is at least heavily infused with it.

We also know that Runes draw on the Winds to power themselves so what if we could somehow make it so that when empowering our Runes we only draw on the Wind of Chamon? Seems like it could be a good way to further increase the power of our Runes.
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Solidified Chamon is a powerstone... it's unlikely it is anything like Adamant.

Chamon is also yellow, not silver.
 
I'm fully alright with spending as much time as it takes to get gromril chain and the next level of gromril. I really, really want that stuff.
 
Alratan said:
I'm not sure we know that. We know that our smelters work like that, but other runes may well work differently. The description of how regular dwarven runes work in the RPG Realms of Sorcery certainly suggests that the magic is imbued at the time of creation and that's it.
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Soul's described this.
soulcake said:
Snorri barely knows they exist. Remember, this is pre elven contact so that magical theory hasn't been imparted to the Dwarfs yet. They just know Runes, aside from the Master Rune of Waking, draw on some power source to fuel themselves and that through careful observation the further north they go the more of that stuff is. Snorri, from his interactions with Blizzardwing, realizes that magic enters the world through some gap in the pole and can be likened to a fluid or gas of some sort. The nuances, the winds and all that are not in the Dwarf knowledge base yet.
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And we know that runes weaken over time when they have no maintenance, but other wise tick along fine which isn't possible with a limited fuel stock.

But let's ask for clarification. @soulcake when you say they draw on the winds of magic, is it a constant fueling or is it a case of you strike the rune and that's it.
 
fictionfan said:
Any chance we could make the Valkyrie armor chainmail?
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That fully depends on how much people want to get Gromril chain before turn 40, how much AP it costs to get, and whether there is still enough AP within that time frame to make the Valkarie armors.

I think it's possible. We have some pretty strong traits when it comes to researching Rune Metal stuff and we already have the tools necessary to forge Adamant which could very well be helpful in making gromril chain. But it all depends on just how much research is needed before we can make the stuff.
 
Thor's Twin said:
That fully depends on how much people want to get Gromril chain before turn 40, how much AP it costs to get, and whether there is still enough AP within that time frame to make the Valkarie armors.

I think it's possible. We have some pretty strong traits when it comes to researching Rune Metal stuff and we already have the tools necessary to forge Adamant which could very well be helpful in making gromril chain. But it all depends on just how much research is needed before we can make the stuff.
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Well on a quick look up there seems to be multiple types of chain mail. I can't really see how or if they have any clear advantages over each other, but maybe the first level learns how to make one type?
 
fictionfan said:
Well on a quick look up there seems to be multiple types of chain mail. I can't really see how or if they have any clear advantages over each other, but maybe the first level learns how to make one type?
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The problem is the ability to work with Gromril on such a small/fine level. Once he figures out how to do that he can make whatever kind of Chainmail he wants.
 
Besides a weapon like chainaxe, I wonder if we can make a tool like a chainsaw? Or more relevantly; a drill. Or a jackhammer or something.

The Impact Rune was initially meant for mining, right. So what about putting it back on some kind of drilling or digging machine or handheld tool?
 
Garlak said:
Besides a weapon like chainaxe, I wonder if we can make a tool like a chainsaw? Or more relevantly; a drill. Or a jackhammer or something.

The Impact Rune was initially meant for mining, right. So what about putting it back on some kind of drilling or digging machine or handheld tool?
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Would be cool. It would be the first case of us actually making a tool that is only possible with runes. Instead of creating a nice tool that works and adding runes to enhance the function. Which is a nice change. Starting to think that runesmiths should all just partner up with skilled smith so they can just focus on the rune part.
 
Garlak said:
Besides a weapon like chainaxe, I wonder if we can make a tool like a chainsaw? Or more relevantly; a drill. Or a jackhammer or something.

The Impact Rune was initially meant for mining, right. So what about putting it back on some kind of drilling or digging machine or handheld tool?
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Decently sure that is being done already, as I recall drills being referenced in the text in a few places.
 
You know, one thing that might be interesting to try is to do the understand master rune of waking action, and then to try making a Gronti with our armour and hammer. We're already capable of channeling the deep magic with them, and given how the Gronti already pull from the deep magic somewhat, it seems like the sort of thing that might really benefit from the additional deep magic we can pull. Both in the short-term with being a super-good gronti, and in the long term in that it might kep being operational once all other Gronti fail due to the fading deep magic.
 
Hydroplatypus said:
You know, one thing that might be interesting to try is to do the understand master rune of waking action, and then to try making a Gronti with our armour and hammer. We're already capable of channeling the deep magic with them, and given how the Gronti already pull from the deep magic somewhat, it seems like the sort of thing that might really benefit from the additional deep magic we can pull. Both in the short-term with being a super-good gronti, and in the long term in that it might kep being operational once all other Gronti fail due to the fading deep magic.
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I am not sure what would be the point. Any dwarf in the armour will already be as tough as a gronti anyway. Either Snorri or whoever inherits the armor in case he dies and the quest ends. The whole point of the armor is that it makes the dawi inside as tough and tireless as a gronti.

Xantalos said:
Will we also be building a gronti to pilot another, bigger gronti?
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Row row, fight the power chaos.
 
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