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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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LaggPlaguedDuke said:
Course at that point, they're gonna want to invade Ulthuan since I doubt the elves would surrender that quickly and that's grounds for losing a lot of dudes to naval warfare since dwarfs don't really do that yet. But hey, maybe we get ironclads much earlier than canon and this bunch gets to be runed ironclads as well.
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I disagree with this in particular. While the Elves are definitely the superior naval power we have a trump card they can't match on the open sea.

Because on the open sea, there is nothing more dangerous than a Storm.

By the time the War rolls around the Griffons will have exploded in population, power, and the King of the Skies in particular will have become an actually Old being. It pays to remember that the KotS and Griffons are only, like, 200-ish years old at this point as a species. Not even the age of a proper Longbeard. They still have a Lot of room to grow.

Any Elven Fleet that try's to combat us at sea will quickly be sunk baring the elves pulling some next level shit out of their asses. Hell the Griffons might just be able to actively attack them at sea while we're still kicking them out of the old world severely hampering their ability to fairy troops and supplies from Ulthuan.
 
one thing we can do to mitigate the time of woes are teams of mining gronti, auto create the underway and maintain it in packs.
 
TehChron said:
The real pie in the sky megaflex is making our way back to the Underway under Ungor and saving them.
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Wouldn't it be easier to just make sure they're never in trouble to begin with, all it would take is Snorri learning of or seeing the shoddy defenses around their mines and he can use his status as a living ancestor to shame them into fortifying them to a level he considers barely acceptable.
 
Jreengus said:
Wouldn't it be easier to just make sure they're never in trouble to begin with, all it would take is Snorri learning of or seeing the shoddy defenses around their mines and he can use his status as a living ancestor to shame them into fortifying them to a level he considers barely acceptable.
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Do you really think that would work?

Because that sounds like a fantastic way to piss off the natives of Karak Ungor, especially when there's no way to predict the Slann fuckery that leads to the Age of Woes ahead of time. Let alone prove its specifically happening and to the degree that it will.
 
We may already have butterflied the War of Vengeance away by keeping in contact with the north eastern and Far Eastern dwarves.

If Malekith is spending his time purging chaos remnants from the southern Mountains of Mourne rather than adventuring in the Chaos Wastes he won't be getting dubious artifacts or hanging around in a place known to damage sanity.

The dwarves may also have done well enough that they don't need the assistance of elven expeditionary armies at all, as we've not heard about them.
 
TehChron said:
Do you really think that would work?

Because that sounds like a fantastic way to piss off the natives of Karak Ungor, especially when there's no way to predict the Slann fuckery that leads to the Age of Woes ahead of time. Let alone prove its specifically happening and to the degree that it will.
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We don't need to predict the age of woes, just point out that tunneling enemies do appear and could break into the mines by accident; as Snorri himself said "better to have a deathtrap you never need than not have a deathtrap when you do." And by the time we're pointing this out Snorri should be among the most respected dwarves around, at least in the north, when an elder like that points out a problem beardlings don't get pissed off they get to fixing it.
 
Jreengus said:
We don't need to predict the age of woes, just point out that tunneling enemies do appear and could break into the mines by accident; as Snorri himself said "better to have a deathtrap you never need than not have a deathtrap when you do."
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The Ancestors already did that wayyyyyy earlier in the Quest.

It's why our Underway defense project got kickstarted in the first place, in fact.
 
Which should make Karak Ungor a non issue which wouldn't need saving in the first place. My only concern is that the dwarves may have focused too much on the underway, according to the wiki Karak Ungor fell because they mined super deep to get at all the ore then abandoned the mines because they didn't think anything could threaten them through them. It's possible that once they finish mining out they won't think the lessons about defending the underway apply to the mines and so they leave them undefended, at which point Snorri needs to deploy the tactical grumbling.
 
I don't think we need to do anything special to avert the War of Vengeance, I think continuing to do what we'd do anyway should hopefully be enough to keep throwing out butterflies. The global strategic situation has changed so radically, and we'll hopefully keep changing it, that the Chaos Gods can't easily wrench it back on track.

There are some specific kinds of research that we may do that may spill over in interesting ways. The Master Rune of Purification is one example, and channeling the power of the deep earth is another. These could well act as distractions or other sources of power or protection that Malekith might be interested in, diverting him from the Chaos Wastes.

Malekith is an archmage, IIRC, and if he becomes a dwarf friend as in canon would be a natural collaborator for the Brotherhood in their runic research. We know this kind of thing happens in canon. He may not get involved here, and if not, that's not an issue either.
 
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If Malekith is the way he was in the original timeline, I'd rather not provide him with "an alternate source of power" too, because the most likely result is just that he has more power to play with and that he eventually goes looking for the magic crown anyway.

Now, we might not know precisely exactly what he is going to be like in this quest's canon, but using the original timeline to argue that Malekith is just one or two good butterflies away from arch-traitorhood is something I view a bit suspiciously because Malekith is kind of an arrogant dick. Always has been.


Him turning out differently is probably going to depend on whether his character is different enough in this quest to begin with. Not on us and hoping that if we can throw a few vague butterflies and hope that we nip him in the bud.

So, to clarify again; if this is Malekith the way he was in canon, then I am not thinking that this is a wonderful opportunity to butterfly away the Witch King. So arguments that he just needs a few changes here or there and everything will be alright and fine, are unconvincing to me.

If this is Rhunrikki-rather-than-canon-Malekith, and thus a bit different as a character, then it might be possible. But the reason here is "possibly he's different" rather than "according to canon, if we just try..."
 
Garlak said:
So, to clarify again; if this is Malekith the way he was in canon, then I am not thinking that this is a wonderful opportunity to butterfly away the Witch King. So arguments that he just needs a few changes here or there and everything will be alright and fine, are unconvincing to me.
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Never intended to say it was a good shot - just our only shot.
 
Garlak said:
If Malekith is the way he was in the original timeline, I'd rather not provide him with "an alternate source of power" too, because the most likely result is just that he has more power to play with and that he eventually goes looking for the magic crown anyway.

Now, we might not know precisely exactly what he is going to be like in this quest's canon, but using the original timeline to argue that Malekith is just one or two good butterflies away from arch-traitorhood is something I view a bit suspiciously because Malekith is kind of an arrogant dick. Always has been.


Him turning out differently is probably going to depend on whether his character is different enough in this quest to begin with. Not on us and hoping that if we can throw a few vague butterflies and hope that we nip him in the bud.

So, to clarify again; if this is Malekith the way he was in canon, then I am not thinking that this is a wonderful opportunity to butterfly away the Witch King. So arguments that he just needs a few changes here or there and everything will be alright and fine, are unconvincing to me.

If this is Rhunrikki-rather-than-canon-Malekith, and thus a bit different as a character, then it might be possible. But the reason here is "possibly he's different" rather than "according to canon, if we just try..."
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The thing is, Malekith didn't go looking for the circlet, as I recall. He went adventuring in the Chaos Wastes north of the old world when the joint dwarf-elf armies had run out of Chaos Gribblies to kill from the areas around the dwarf holds that were known to have survived went to war with Chaos Marauder tribes living in the Chaos Wastes. What happened, I belive is that he stumbled over the Circlet (worn by the mummified body of some non-human, non-dwarf, non-elf in a city built by none of them), and received a set of visions that set determinedly him on his path to take over Ulthuan. Him finding the Circlet should already have been butterflied, as the conditions that lead to him doing so are different. I expect the Chaos Gods to still try to prod him in that direction, but that should be harder without their being a natural reason for him to be there in the first pla

Here, there are vastly, vastly more dwarfholds that are known to have survived; so the elven expeditionary forces are likely to be in the field for vastly longer if they are needed, and the campaign should end at the southern tip of the Mountains of Mourne not on the borders of the Chaos Wastes. That alone means that Malekith is very unlikely to be in the right place to stumble over the Circlet.

The northern dwarfholds also seem to be doing a perfectly good job of securing the surface of the north without elven assistance, meaning it's even less likely he'll end up in the far, far north.

And the point about involving himself in the research is that it gives him something to do that doesn't involve him wandering around the Chaos Wastes. If he's busy debating the nature of magic with He Who Thinks and with Snorri and helping make a more redundant Waystone network, he won't be in the right place at the right time to find the Circlet.

On the subject of the Circlet, and the pre-Incursion city that it was found in, dwarves may well find it first, given the other butterflies. I expect that Hashut's devotees fled north, which means they went in the right direction to find it, and one of their sorcerer-priests might well get good use of the Circlet of Iron. Even if they don't, Gazulite witch hunters looking for them might well find it.

Also, being an arrogant dick is part of being an elder race in Warhammer. Both elves and dwarves suffer
 
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Or it means that a closer relationship between Malekith and the Dwarfs, means the Karaz Ankor gets embroiled in the Elf civil war early. Or something equally bad. :V I don't like, nor trust, Malekith and I'm not convinced that he was a good guy who would have been the best ruler ever if only things hadn't gone wrong or if only the elves had elected the correct person or if only etc etc. It's only because we don't know how Malekith is likely to be in this quest, as opposed to canon, that I'm not just writing the whole business off entirely.

As is, though? I'm still expecting him to somehow bring down the two superpowers of the world. I'm not super-enthused about Malekith, basically.

And I'm not convinced that "And therefore, we should make sure to involve ourselves as much as possible, so that we could try to prevent him from falling!" is the 'obvious/natural conclusion'...

Because, actually, y'know what would be an equally obvious way to avoid the War of Vengeance and Time of Woes? If the Elves and Dwarfs never grow as close as they did OTL! Yeah. Isolationism would also be a way to avoid that, technically speaking.

... Actually, hypothethically, you could make the argument "We've got both the North and the East Dwarfs as part of the Karaz Ankor this time -- and we already have a magical ally -- the Griffons. We don't need Ulthuan to become as great as the original golden age dwarfs did, so we should just try to avoid the whole thing."

Because, y'know, that's actually a legitimate argument to make? "We are stronger this time, and already have a cool ally and who has proven themselves in a dramatic fashion, and so we can do just fine like this."


If we were to decide to not go all-in on friendship with the Elves, and instead were to decide to focus on Karaz Ankor stuff with Norsca and the Skull Lands Dwarfs instead and proven Griffon allies? That, too, would be a perfectly legitimate playstyle and path to take! Dwarfs and Griffons, adventuring and thriving throughout the ancient age of Warhammer. There's a story there, too. And as I think about it, I grow more interested.


Bringing up Malekith and acting like it's a done-deal that we must get involved, it's our duty to the future, and to do otherwise is to accept the canon outcome of disasters... That to choose otherwise is to be complicit in accepting the War of Vengeance and catastrophe... It's doing a lot to douse my enthusiasm of seeing Elf and Dwarf history and stories, you know? Like... If I wanted to just see a story that was Karaz Ankor-only, with Griffons, that would be a perfectly viable path to take and would not lead to disaster or anything like that if I just voted for that, y'know?

I don't want that, of course. Well, yet, anyway. But I don't want to treat it as a given that we must get involved in the Malekith storyline and that it's our moral obligation and etc.
 
Okay...those are two fairly compelling arguments, I must admit. Put that way, we've already caused some fairly massive butterflies, haven't we? It's just subtler than might be expected.

I think I'd still like to research Diction to completion, because first contacts and diplomacy make for good quest stories, but yeah. Maybe the war of vengeance is already much less likely than I thought.
 
As a note, the idea that the Circlet of Iron turned Malekith bad (or worse) doesn't originate from the Malekith novel. It comes from the 7th edition Dark Elf Army book, which predates the novel. In that, Malekith found the Circlet while leading elven expeditionary forces to war alongside the dwarves against the (human) chaos warriors that lived in the chaos wastes.

Garlak said:
Or it means that a closer relationship between Malekith and the Dwarfs, means the Karaz Ankor gets embroiled in the Elf civil war early. Or something equally bad. :V I don't like, nor trust, Malekith and I'm not convinced that he was a good guy who would have been the best ruler ever if only things hadn't gone wrong or if only the elves had elected the correct person or if only etc etc. It's only because we don't know how Malekith is likely to be in this quest, as opposed to canon, that I'm not just writing the whole business off entirely.

As is, though? I'm still expecting him to somehow bring down the two superpowers of the world. I'm not super-enthused about Malekith, basically.

And I'm not convinced that "And therefore, we should make sure to involve ourselves as much as possible, so that we could try to prevent him from falling!" is the 'obvious/natural conclusion'...

Because, actually, y'know what would be an equally obvious way to avoid the War of Vengeance and Time of Woes? If the Elves and Dwarfs never grow as close as they did OTL! Yeah. Isolationism would also be a way to avoid that, technically speaking.

... Actually, hypothethically, you could make the argument "We've got both the North and the East Dwarfs as part of the Karaz Ankor this time -- and we already have a magical ally -- the Griffons. We don't need Ulthuan to become as great as the original golden age dwarfs did, so we should just try to avoid the whole thing."

Because, y'know, that's actually a legitimate argument to make? "We are stronger this time, and already have a cool ally and who has proven themselves in a dramatic fashion, and so we can do just fine like this."


If we were to decide to not go all-in on friendship with the Elves, and instead were to decide to focus on Karaz Ankor stuff with Norsca and the Skull Lands Dwarfs instead and proven Griffon allies? That, too, would be a perfectly legitimate playstyle and path to take! Dwarfs and Griffons, adventuring and thriving throughout the ancient age of Warhammer. There's a story there, too. And as I think about it, I grow more interested.


Bringing up Malekith and acting like it's a done-deal that we must get involved, it's our duty to the future, and to do otherwise is to accept the canon outcome of disasters... That to choose otherwise is to be complicit in accepting the War of Vengeance and catastrophe... It's doing a lot to douse my enthusiasm of seeing Elf and Dwarf history and stories, you know? Like... If I wanted to just see a story that was Karaz Ankor-only, with Griffons, that would be a perfectly viable path to take and would not lead to disaster or anything like that if I just voted for that, y'know?

I don't want that, of course. Well, yet, anyway. But I don't want to treat it as a given that we must get involved in the Malekith storyline and that it's our moral obligation and etc.
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There's a small excluded middle between him being 'a good guy and the best ruler ever' and him being someone who is inherently evil.

Him deeply resenting the elven princes for electing someone else and buggering off from Ulthuan in disgust while playing king over the water doesn't mean that without whatever his experiences in the Chaos Wastes and with the Circlet were he would be willing to go to the extreme lengths he did in canon. Before finding the Circlet and what happened to him in Vorshgar he'd managed to live with it for nearly two thousand years, but within a few short decades of finding the Circlet he'd gone completely off the deep end.

You're also arguing against a strawman. I don't believe anyone has said that we need to involve ourselves as much as possible. I, for example said that just continuing doing what we're doing should already have butterfield the War of Vengeance, and that it didn't matter fi we met him or not.

It would be even more outrageous metagaming to try to avoid the elves to avoid the War of Vengeance. Also, the things that the elves can teach aren't things that other dwarves or the griffins can teach. We also have to expand and improve the Waystone network. That's pretty much essential so the world can survive. No one else knows High Magic save for the Slann, and they're not talking.
 
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BelligerentGnu said:
Okay...those are two fairly compelling arguments, I must admit. Put that way, we've already caused some fairly massive butterflies, haven't we? It's just subtler than might be expected.

I think I'd still like to research Diction to completion, because first contacts and diplomacy make for good quest stories, but yeah. Maybe the war of vengeance is already much less likely than I thought.
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Interesting divergence possibility:

the existence of Griffons leads to the Phoenix King getting messages, or messengers, from the Karaz Ankor way way faster. No War of Vengeance results.

Having a method of achieving faster travel or communication, and thus any messengers or investigators the High King sends to Ulthuan, end up getting there way way faster because they can fly. OR, their kings have foresight, and so see some great disaster coming -- or even just are better able to warn of attacks, or investigate after attacks happen because you have flight -- and so things change. The war is averted, or changed, because the Karaz Ankor has Griffon allies now.

... I mean, more likely the changes will probably just be something like "War still happens, but this time the strategic calculus is a bit different because the Dwarfs have air cavalry too." But it's interesting to think about another way that the Brana might shake things up, no? And makes me want to focus on the Branakroki a lot.
Alratan said:
You're also arguing against a strawman. I don't believe anyone has said that we need to involve ourselves as much as possible. I, for example said that just continuing doing what we're doing should already have butterfield the War of Vengeance.
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You mused on the possibility of Snorri's most personal, biggest, and most ground-breaking and newest research -- the power of the deep earth -- potentially butterflying away Malekith from seeking power in the Chaos Wastes.
Alratan said:
There are some specific kinds of research that we may do that may spill over in interesting ways. The Master Rune of Purification is one example, and channeling the power of the deep earth is another. These could well act as distractions or other sources of power or protection that Malekith might be interested in, diverting him from the Chaos Wastes.
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I'm not sure how else to take that. The idea that we'd become close enough to Malekith for that to wind up happening. Because right now, it's Snorri's pet project and only comes from Barak Azamar and Zharrgal. It's something deeply personal, and something we only barely have ideas for how to try to get into.
 
Garlak said:
Uou mused on the possibility of Snorri's most personal, biggest, and most ground-breaking and newest research -- the power of the deep earth -- potentially butterflying away Malekith from seeking power in the Chaos Wastes.

I'm not sure how else to take that. The idea that we'd become close enough to Malekith for that to wind up happening. Because right now, it's Snorri's pet project and only comes from Barak Azamar and Zharrgal. It's something deeply personal, and something we only barely have ideas for how to try to get into.
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Malekith did not seek power in the Chaos Wastes from what I can see. According to the 7th Ed Army book he stumbled on Vorshgar and accidentally found the Circlet of Iron in the Chaos Wastes while leading the elven expeditionary armies against human Chaos worshippers there.

I fully expect Snorri to share the knowledge of the deep earth with the rest of the Brotherhood of Dron just as he already has with the Master Rune of Purification some time in the next thousand years, and for one of them to quite possibly work with Malekith at some point. Snorri could well never know about it.

I'm saying that Malekith, as a spellcasting prodigy who's a dedicated foe of chaos who has spent his entire life fighting them, might well be interested in magic and tools that better allow him to do so. Working on this kind of magic might distract him from leading armies to physically beat them up, particularly in a context like this where the dwarves don't need the assistance of eleven expeditionary armies to venture into the north and put the beat down on the forces of chaos, so he can fight them as a wizard rather than as a general.

This is what I think you're underestimating. Malekith doesn't stumble over the Circlet for something like fourteen hundred years in canon. The chaos worshipping human tribes that come to occupy the far north haven't, as far as I'm aware, even migrated from the original human homelands in the sub-tropics, and with the dwarves controlling the great skull land and likely the northern Mountains of Mourne those migrations will probably happen completely differently. Particularly as there'll be Gazulite anti-chaos forces active to try to squish chaos cults, and the northern dwarves are unlikely to be willing to allow tribes of humans to settle the chaos wastes and becoming corrupted without intervening much earlier.

A huge number of things can happen in that time, including Snorri's discovery of the magic of the deep earth and developments of the Master Rune of Purification and successor Master Runes spreading through the community of runesmiths. That's why I'm talking about spillovers.

kinglugia said:
Probably a Fimir then.
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In a stepped ziggurat, apparently, so possibly a slann...
 
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kinglugia said:
Hmm. Do you reckon thd the only reason Sigmar's Empire existed was due to the decline of the Karaz Ankor?
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Ehh, I don't think so. The key event seems to be the rise of a suitably charismatic and powerful leader necessary to unite the tribes in the region. Having a common enemy was likely helpful, and it is uncertain if the decline of the Karaz Ankor is the only reason why the Greenskins were able to spread throughout the region.
 
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