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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Genuinely dunno, definitely not repeatable like Chainforgers are. And I just remembered that Gromril Chainforgers use a Gromril drawplate.
yeah, I thought that 'chainforgers use an adamant drawplate' thing was off.

you don't need a different material as a drawplate, just the same material but colder. hence the fact that drawplates for steel, are still made of steel.

the whole thing is that you're structurally compromising a bit of material so it's softer and more ductile than it's non-compromised state.
 
I wonder if it's possible to convert gromril chainmail into adamant chainmail. I don't think the adamant maker actually melts the gromril. it seems to go in as bars and come out as bars.

If it does melt it, it might require compressing the combo and adding other runes that act as a kind of forcefield mould, holding the molten gromril suspended in place and preventing the individual links of the chain touching.

Perhaps challenging to design the right runes that can basically do telekinesis (or ferrokinesis), but it doesn't seem logically impossible.
 
I wonder if it's possible to convert gromril chainmail into adamant chainmail. I don't think the adamant maker actually melts the gromril. it seems to go in as bars and come out as bars.

If it does melt it, it might require compressing the combo and adding other runes that act as a kind of forcefield mould, holding the molten gromril suspended in place and preventing the individual links of the chain touching.
Reread the part about Fjolla's new Adamant Smelter. Hers is designed with smaller molds due to her focus on jewelry. So the Adamant definitely melts and reforms in molds within the smelter.

The main chamber wasn't spared modification either, as Fjolla had gone through the effort of creating specific molds that let her process an equal volume Gromril, but in the form of smaller bars, rather than a single ingot you and Karstah preferred.
 
Runed adamant is unbreakable, unruned adamant is not so the room version of the chainforger can probably make adamant chain if you replace the gromril drawplate with a runed adamant plate instead. If heat's an issue, replace normal forgeflame with MForgeflame and crank the number of furnaces up. May or may not need more strength amulets as well. Alternatively KKR might just be able to beat a bar of adamant into wire with enough time.
 
Runed adamant is unbreakable, unruned adamant is not so the room version of the chainforger can probably make adamant chain if you replace the gromril drawplate with a runed adamant plate instead. If heat's an issue, replace normal forgeflame with MForgeflame and crank the number of furnaces up. May or may not need more strength amulets as well. Alternatively KKR might just be able to beat a bar of adamant into wire with enough time.

Or a gronti to pull the wire, or a mechanism using lots of Runes of Torsion on wheels on a single axle.
 
So... would a Runed Glimril Drawplate work on unruned Adamant?
Depends on the difference in strength between Adamant and Glimril. The larger the difference the less wear and tear there'll be.
The only reason the Chainmaker currently gets away with it without requiring regular drawplate replacements is the array of runes that weaken the wire before its drawn. Adamant is pretty damn resistant to magic.
Its also going to require proportionally more force however that is the sort of thing that a Gronti can fix.

And obviously unruned. trying to draw a runed wire through a draw plate would just destroy the rune and probably the Chainmaker.
Glimril chainmail possible?
Get in the furnace and hammer it out.
I wonder if it's possible to convert gromril chainmail into adamant chainmail. I don't think the adamant maker actually melts the gromril. it seems to go in as bars and come out as bars.

If it does melt it, it might require compressing the combo and adding other runes that act as a kind of forcefield mould, holding the molten gromril suspended in place and preventing the individual links of the chain touching.

Perhaps challenging to design the right runes that can basically do telekinesis (or ferrokinesis), but it doesn't seem logically impossible.
However if the heat causes it all to fuse together, then we've just got regular fixed armour with no articulation and a lot of holes.
Because this isn't the forcefield mould for a single chain its a forcefield that needs to hold thousands of different chains interlocking, in place and yet not touching.
Thats a pretty complex design.
 
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@BungieONI .
I quite enjoied your thougth on rune theory.
Maybe I can help with some info.
The reason why wizards can not cast whilst wearing heavy magical armor Is because magic Is the stuff of change freedom and immaterial in a metafisical way. Armor Is metafisicaly speaking a strong material bound tigth to reality. And so there Is a disrupting effect on a wizard given by the spells in the armor fighting the armor itself that makes casting a lot harder.
Given that runes must interact with the winds by your theory maybe all normal armor have like no space inside of them for runes but gromril being soffused with Chamon manages to have less disturbance and so more space?

It would explain why runes just fail and do not explode, the winds simply never enter the rune to begin with (repelled by armor)and so can not be turned into runic energy.

Maybe there Is a way to put armor runes on like textile armour buy nobody knows the rigth ritual for it given we are runeSMITHS.

It would explain why runic tattos are a thing and why the rule of tree still holds for those.


Tldr runes on armor Is like tryng to write on a page already full of notes and tring to do It on gromril Is doing It after you delete all the notes, It does not give you extra space but It gives you the normal ammount of It.
 
However if the heat causes it all to fuse together, then we've just got regular fixed armour with no articulation and a lot of holes.
Because this isn't the forcefield mould for a single chain its a forcefield that needs to hold thousands of different chains interlocking, in place and yet not touching.
Thats a pretty complex design.

Oh, agreed, it's complex.

The way you'd probably have to do it is to somehow make the individual links repel each otherwhile (by coating the links with something with that property) also making them weightless with some extra manipulation to prevent bunching. Like how you can make individual hairs repel each other electrostatically after combing.

It's a complex 'engineering' challenge, but not logically impossible.
 
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It's a complex 'engineering' challenge, but not logically impossible.
Its not logically impossible in the same way that any form of Adamant mail isn't logically impossible.
Assuming sufficient developments in Runes, Glimril, power sources, ect, ect then nothing is impossible.
Is it likely that enough of those things will happen? Is there a physical limit we'll hit before sufficient development? Only soulcake knows.
 
Tldr runes on armor Is like tryng to write on a page already full of notes and tring to do It on gromril Is doing It after you delete all the notes, It does not give you extra space but It gives you the normal ammount of It.
Maybe. It'll take till we get better Windsight and Akazit to have the tools to experiment with this.
 
Thanks hope to have helped your work
You got me thinking a bit about Rule of Form and the why of it. Runes and their Rites care about Anchors, and one thing I didn't really touch on was the Why of that.

We know that Runes are concepts, perhaps you can actually model the cause of the Rule of Form solely using Concepts. When we look at the Master Rune of Grungni in the Weapon form, we see it has to be inscribed on Hammers or Picks. It seems so closely associated with Grungni as a concept that it has to link to His weapons.

The Master Runes of Far Cleaving and Garagrim Doomcleaver also need to be inscribed upon Blades, a specific sub-form of Weapons. Those master runes are tied to specific ideas about weapons.

But we also know that while material items are not solely conceptual, they do have conceptual ties. When we speak of hammers we think of hammer-associated concepts. We imagine what a hammer looks like, what it does, what it could be used for, its qualities.

So we have Runes that are certain concepts and we have items associated with certain concepts. It also seems like the Rune Categories are masses of related concepts.

My theory for why the Rule of Form functions the way it does goes like this then: Perhaps Runes care about the conceptual associations and physical properties of what they are inscribed upon. A Rune of 'sharp enough to cut gromril' can resonate or 'synch up' with a blade, because sharpness is a concept associated with and a physical quality of a blade.

But when you put 'Sharp enough to cut gromril' on an amulet, there's no conceptual resonance and there's no physical property associated with a concept that works with the Rune.

The Essence of things may also have to do with this - and that's why its Pure Gromril Armor specifically, rather than just "things that conceptually count as armor".
 
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[Non Canon] The Other Runelords Contribute - Brynna, +15 to a Roll
The Other Runelords Contribute - Brynna

The last of the commissions, at least of Kraka Drak. One of the more surprising too, at that. Rumors have swirled around about Brynna being busy with her own project, quite possibly (indirectly) responsible for the incident that had ended up maiming her. That she had responded to the king's call for gear had been a surprise.

But a welcome one.

He's not inclined to put stock in the idea of her looking for an honor-guard as The Gift-Giver had, but if she was, managing to make the time to arm champions of the Hold would be one way to do it. Circumstantial evidence, and for all the Reckoners warn against putting too much stock in it, so too do they warn against not considering it at all.

"Welcome, Prince. Please enter, be well, and may no evil come upon you within my home."

"I thank you for the boon of your hospitality, honored elder, and would not impose upon your precious time."

He puts aside such thoughtful airs for the moment to instead do his duty and collect the work.

There's an air of formality, quite Zornish, on the Longplait as she welcomes him into her home (or perhaps inner sanctum is more appropriate, given the slow and steady growth of fortifications around it for all she does not desire a Kazaghar). The decoration is tastefully opulent, gold and silver and stone and gromril, the four best materials by any Dwarf's estimation, with ivory to accent and comfortable looking, particularly plush furniture all around the place, enough to seat he, his guard, and a few dozen of their closest friends all told. A seamless gray wall with Thungni's face in gold, more thoughtful than anything, surrounded by Klinkarhun prayers and enough precious gems to light the place in shimmering teal light, dominates the vast southern wall. Even odds it's (a) workshop, though how interested he is in that pales in comparison to his interest in armor upon the rack in front of it.

It's lighter than he expects of his people, that much he can say for sure: hardly the rawhide and scraps of the Gori, nor the maille-and-harness of the Elgi, but there's little, if any, articulated plate as he'd expect, instead relying on scale-and-maille for the most part, with the closest thing to real plate being the greaves (not even sabatons) and bracers (no gauntlets proper). He approaches, carefully, very carefully, looking at it. Each and every link has invocations of Grimnir chiseled onto it in the finest, but still yet legible, writing, Aldrhun at that. The gromril of the Maille has been blued to protect it from rust, a shimmering thing like the flames dancing in the hotttest, brightest forge.

The invocations all draw on one aspect, His Rage. Grimnir Bellicose Guides The Ax, Grimnir Raging Grant Me Vengeance, Grimnir Furious Make My Hide Stone, link after link after link of such raging words, the armor of one intending to slay, much as the armor itself is intended to provide as much freedom of movement as possible, relying on the nature of Pure Gromril to offer protection rather than pure coverage. Hardened scales of pure gromril cover the waist up to the neck, the scales colored red to protect from rust, bright as fire, layered over the maille. The aftermath of battle after battle that Grimnir won are etched into them, lined in wire of purest white.

The helmet, the greaves, and the bracers alike are all pure white, like the hottest of fire. They are relatively simple in geometry, but well decorated: An aventail dangles, directly attached, to the helmet, covering the whole of the head but for the eyes in Pure Gromril, the hardened plates intricately etched with the Kin of Grimnir and their legends, particularly the violent ones: His own forefather, the Ironarm himself; King Gunn; The Drakebeards; and many more aside, brightest vengeance and glorious victory and honorable sacrifice and no matter what, no matter, no surrender. To break up what could be an otherwise boring color palette the images are all lined in gold the yellow of fire, emphasizing and framing the lot of them.

The bracers and greaves are similarily decorated, though the greater space allowed her to get more detailed with it all: Otrek the Founder slaying the Frost Wyrm, slaying Kholek, and now his father leading the battle against the Fimir, all the foes who would dare to threaten his people faced at the edge of an ax. Aside from gold, Trollslayer's blade has been marked by a pearl socketed into a hearthstone the better to emulate its skyfires.

War.

Decoration of war, intended for a thing of war.

He smiles at it.

Brynna has not been subtle in laying down the Runes, the three burning marks yet flaring to brilliant life over where the heart would be: the Master Rune at the center, and then flanked by its compatriots on the scales to the left and the right.

"The Master Rune of the Boar, the Rune of Berserk, the Rune of Grimnir. Each comes to a singular point, each fulfills one purpose, harmonizing like a skald's story: The bearer shall be as stubborn and as skilled and as raging as your forefather, Prince. No blow shall slay them, no attack turn them aside, no strike dissuade them, lest the foe be mighty at arm indeed. And in battle none shall be their equal, no foeman greater, no party the more threatening. May that it shall be worthy of the champion the king offers it to; may that it meets the standards of the Royal Clan; may that it never fails in battle."

He can't help but examine the face of his great-grandfather, the man he was named after, the man he knows he cannot fight as.

But perhaps he can live up to his legacy in another way.

"It shall more than suffice, Lady Brynna. A reminder to myself and my descendants of the standards we must bear. I promise you this, I shall speak with my father to see you properly compensated. It will be done. Of my own vault if necessary." He bows at the waist to her, younger to elder, even as the huskarls that accompany him grab the piece and leave behind the initial payment.
 
Grozdrengi
Many Slayer
A proposal for a War Machine for the Hearth Guard to keep on the back banner, variable investment for variable return:

A fairly simple Bolt Hurler, made of Dronwut stained red, trimmed with gold lacquered white and tastefully accentuated with emeralds at key points. The gold is in the form of knotwork tracing along the contraption, the emeralds studding points along its mechanistic working: a testament to beauty in function. Subtle by the standards of most of Snorri's work.

At least, until it actually fires and evaporates a few enemy regiments with freezing cold shrapnel.

Runes:

M. Shardthrower (???): The biggest X.Factor in my mind, in that we don't know it or what its reagent would be. Ideally we already have at least the T2/T3 form so this can be a moderate investment/Moderate return build. When ammo strikes home it will shatter, tossing hard shrapnel absolutely everywhere.

Cleaving (T2-T4 Cockatrice Eye): So the shrapnel can break through enemy armor, with effect of Cleaving emphasized by the cockatrice such that whatever shoddy crap gets put in its way, it can still just break through like so much air.

Penetrating (Wyrren Duraz???): Cold, hard steel dripping with frost, yet further punching through whatever it strikes as well as freezing the enemies it hits.

In short, transforming a Bolt Hurler into both a Single-Target and Regimental War Machine that can grind through both by tossing up clouds of freezing shrapnel and punch through more dangerous single targets as well.
--
Just a very rough proposal for a War Machine for the Hearth Guard's engineers, I am intentionally trying to keep it simple and also allow modularity so that if there is a free AP or two we can toss it in. Still brainstorming though, definitely, for all I want to stick with what is essentially Dwarf Minimalism.
 
Grozdrengi
Many Slayer
A proposal for a War Machine for the Hearth Guard to keep on the back banner, variable investment for variable return:

A fairly simple Bolt Hurler, made of Dronwut stained red, trimmed with gold lacquered white and tastefully accentuated with emeralds at key points. The gold is in the form of knotwork tracing along the contraption, the emeralds studding points along its mechanistic working: a testament to beauty in function. Subtle by the standards of most of Snorri's work.

At least, until it actually fires and evaporates a few enemy regiments with freezing cold shrapnel.

Runes:

M. Shardthrower (???): The biggest X.Factor in my mind, in that we don't know it or what its reagent would be. Ideally we already have at least the T2/T3 form so this can be a moderate investment/Moderate return build. When ammo strikes home it will shatter, tossing hard shrapnel absolutely everywhere.

Cleaving (T2-T4 Cockatrice Eye): So the shrapnel can break through enemy armor, with effect of Cleaving emphasized by the cockatrice such that whatever shoddy crap gets put in its way, it can still just break through like so much air.

Penetrating (Wyrren Duraz???): Cold, hard steel dripping with frost, yet further punching through whatever it strikes as well as freezing the enemies it hits.

In short, transforming a Bolt Hurler into both a Single-Target and Regimental War Machine that can grind through both by tossing up clouds of freezing shrapnel and punch through more dangerous single targets as well.
--
Just a very rough proposal for a War Machine for the Hearth Guard's engineers, I am intentionally trying to keep it simple and also allow modularity so that if there is a free AP or two we can toss it in. Still brainstorming though, definitely, for all I want to stick with what is essentially Dwarf Minimalism.
Where does the freezing come from?
Different assumptions of MShardthrower?
Master Rune of ShardthrowerEngineeringMaster RuneAmmo shatters into a multitude of shards on impact, momentum of original shot preserved
I took that to mean splinter into shards of the same material, but you think its splintering into ice shards?

Not the Wyrren Duraz surely? Ingredients are one of the least impactful effects and this is a T2 not something like the Greedy Heart.
 
Have the Rune inscribed on a T3 Wyrren Duraz, maybe?
Making a stone bolt thrower is an inherently silly idea. It wouldn't be able to bend
Grudge Thrower, bit more plausible.
In fact, the Wyrren Duraz.

That said, the freezing is tertiary to me, I honestly mostly included it since that was all I got when I was brainstorming on Discord. Could bump up to T4 Frost Wyrm Blood or Thundertusk Tusk for it I suppose.
Nobody suggested something like Stonehorn Horns? Just put more power behind the piercing effect?
Or just put in "Snorri uses whatever he thinks is best."

I assume theres similar secret discord knowledge behind using an eye on Cleaving? Or was that a mistake and it was meant to be Striking, picking out vulnerabilities in armour rather than powering them?
Rune of StrikingAllRuneGuides wielder to strike the foe's most vulnerable areas, multiple copies improve martial skill
Rune of CleavingAllRuneMakes weapons strong enough to easily break the strongest stone
I think its kind of an odd choice, I can kinda understand using an eye to improve an accuracy rune. However Cockatrices are known for their ability to petrify things, not for their ability to seek vulnerabilities, feels like its just being put there for the sake of putting an eye on it.
If cleaving is correct, I really don't see any connection at all.
 
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