Firn said that telling her would have major consequences in quest... This could be from Homura doing something, to even feathers itself doing something....
There's the fact Kyubey already knows about the potentialbomb. Thus, all attempts to diffuse it require either keeping Kyubey away from Homura somehow, or finding a way to make the potentialbomb lose its power to Homura. I think the best case scenario here is that Homura doesn't learn the potentialbomb, but it may not be possible to defuse.

Or it may be, but it'll take a lot of work.

It occurs to me, that Oriko's scrying is really useful for keeping track of Kyubey. Perhaps that's a line of thought we can follow up with when we tell Mami the potentialbomb? It'd be fitting, because, well
There's a saying. Villains act, heroes react.
I've always hated that saying.
And also, I couldn't find where Firn said it, but y'know. "It's about the people. It's always about the people." - Firn at some point in time.

It feels a little too convenient that Oriko's powers point towards proactivity against Kyubey when this quest rewards being proactive and working with other people? I could also be completely incorrect, but I'm spitballing so we can hopefully figure something out.
 
I do want to witch bomb Mami before Wally arrives tho.

I've mentioned before that now that Mami knows about Madokami and the Rebellion, my worries about her going Tetris are gone.

In my view, Tetris was a result of Mami looking at the facts in front of her, and deciding that death was better than a fate worse than death, and took the only way she could prevent her and her friends from suffering that fate. Knowing about Madokami before being Witchbombed ensures she'll see that there are other options.

We'll still likely need to help her process a lot of guilt, but it isn't the only logical answer anymore.

She's also got a purpose beyond hunting Witches now that she knows the rough outline what's up with Homura and Madoka and the existence of Feathers as the real final boss, so she won't be inclined to treat suicide as fulfilling her purpose of slaying a potential Witch.

We have referenced wanting to tell her in the light of the afternoon sun, being the best time to get bad news in. And Mami isn't in school.

I kind of like having it all out in the open with Mami before we go talk to Shin, so we can Witchbomb Shin and Nagisa during our explainations.
 
I was hoping we tell her after we defeated Wally since I felt that would be around the best time but I am unsure...
Is there even gonna be a quest after that point? If Firn said so I'd believe it, I'm not 100% up to date with the thread discussion, but I figured everything after Wally would be epilogue stuff. Maybe something involving the incubators but after Wally is still some time off and a massive milestone.

Even if that's not the end I'd still want to deal with this well before then, Oriko mentioned that Kyubey would tell Homura's well before then as a way to break her and badly damage our own efforts. And I don't trust our ability to keep Kyubey away from Homura for long, and I don't like having that hanging over our head. I'd rather take a bet and trust in Homura's strength, Mami's empathy, and our ability to covey our unwavering faith and awe at her character and actions. Trust in in love and justice to see us through.

I've mentioned before that now that Mami knows about Madokami and the Rebellion, my worries about her going Tetris are gone.

In my view, Tetris was a result of Mami looking at the facts in front of her, and deciding that death was better than a fate worse than death, and took the only way she could prevent her and her friends from suffering that fate. Knowing about Madokami before being Witchbombed ensures she'll see that there are other options.

We'll still likely need to help her process a lot of guilt, but it isn't the only logical answer anymore.

She's also got a purpose beyond hunting Witches now that she knows the rough outline what's up with Homura and Madoka and the existence of Feathers as the real final boss, so she won't be inclined to treat suicide as fulfilling her purpose of slaying a potential Witch.

We have referenced wanting to tell her in the light of the afternoon sun, being the best time to get bad news in. And Mami isn't in school.

I kind of like having it all out in the open with Mami before we go talk to Shin, so we can Witchbomb Shin and Nagisa during our explainations.
I am 100 and ten present down for this, with one caveat. We bring Homura into the discussion. She would want to be on hand anyways, she might appreciate seeing the sight of a Mami who doesn't break at the witch bombs, and it might put Mami in a mindset where she can truly appreciate what exactly Homura has done for everyone.
 
Is there even gonna be a quest after that point? If Firn said so I'd believe it, I'm not 100% up to date with the thread discussion, but I figured everything after Wally would be epilogue stuff. Maybe something involving the incubators but after Wally is still some time off and a massive milestone.

Considering that Wally fight is when shit goes down with feathers and the fact that we havent really made much progress in de witching id think there would still be stuff left to do.

The bomb we want to drop on Homura is so much worse than any other, worse than witch bombing Mami.

One way Ive been wanting to deal with this particular issue is making something with enchantments that censors Kyubey and start handing them out until the anti kyubey memory device is ready for the Wally fight.

That way we wont have to worry about her getting bombed by Kyubey at all before we reach that fight, since Kyubey is the only other person who really knows... Unless feathers decides to take more drastic measures in response.

Im fine either way if people want to tell her but its something that should be very heavly planned out I think.
 
But to be clear are we thinking of telling Homura soon? I know that now right now is a bad idea, we've already put a lot on her, but soon? Tomorrow at the latest.
Absolutely not until Walpurgis is done for. Consequences could be catastrophic down to Homura being unable to fight at all. 'sides, Homura would be reluctant to use time reverse if things go FUBAR somehow (due to Feathers/LoC/Homura's Wish/????????); now I very, VERY much doubt Firn is down to write a second loop but you never know lol. Plus makes sense from in-universe perspective so there's that.

we kind of don't have the time, it's do or die
We absolutely has no reason whatsoever to hurry with this. None. None at all. Especially if we shield Homura (and Madoka) with perception filter so Kyubey cant say shit to either of them. The whole potential thing is not important assuming we aiming to end loops. Its a "fun" bit of trivia and thats about it.
 
. "If you don't mind my asking, who told you about me?"

" Oh, one of our new friends!( Her soul is gorgeous, but not as much as yours.) " they say. "She was actually coming to see you.( We met her in Kanazawa!) "

Hey guys... So I Was reading randomn partts of the storie and remembered this part...

Should we make a body for this girl first? I noticed noone seemed to talk about her at all despite her coming to see us.

She may have either a request or even some info, I think she should be the first to get a body.
 
The bomb we want to drop on Homura is so much worse than any other, worse than witch bombing Mami.
Ok. Why? No judgment or sarcasm, genuinely why is this so much worse than every other bomb that we can drop. Worse than telling Mami about the time loops, the witch/litch bombs and the meta knowledge. We've told the constellations about the twin goddess and yeah we haven't seen the full fallout of that, but to me we've handled worse and tackled tougher than this.

I'm actually thinking that we tell Homura this and Mami about the witches together, as a way to have them both focus on the things that make both of those truth bearable. For Mami the fact that Homura is on the case regarding everything, and for Homura a way to show her that her actions have unquestionably helped things and put us in a position to win the whole damn war.

I don't understand why telling Homura this fact will crush her so completely that the undeniable truth that she has saved so many wouldn't reach her, and fern saying that there will be consequences to this action doesn't necessarily mean that they will be bad in one's. Getting Homura through this hurdle might be just the thing to set her on a path to start clearing most of her mental blocks.

So what am I missing right now. No judgment and no anger, what do you think we might lose doing this that convinces you that it's likely not with the risk. That trying to keep this from her is worth risking Kyubey having the initiative on this.
 
Ok. Why? No judgment or sarcasm, genuinely why is this so much worse than every other bomb that we can drop. Worse than telling Mami about the time loops, the witch/litch bombs and the meta knowledge. We've told the constellations about the twin goddess and yeah we haven't seen the full fallout of that, but to me we've handled worse and tackled tougher than this.

I'm actually thinking that we tell Homura this and Mami about the witches together, as a way to have them both focus on the things that make both of those truth bearable. For Mami the fact that Homura is on the case regarding everything, and for Homura a way to show her that her actions have unquestionably helped things and put us in a position to win the whole damn war.

I don't understand why telling Homura this fact will crush her so completely that the undeniable truth that she has saved so many wouldn't reach her, and fern saying that there will be consequences to this action doesn't necessarily mean that they will be bad in one's. Getting Homura through this hurdle might be just the thing to set her on a path to start clearing most of her mental blocks.

So what am I missing right now. No judgment and no anger, what do you think we might lose doing this that convinces you that it's likely not with the risk. That trying to keep this from her is worth risking Kyubey having the initiative on this.

The comparison with witch bombing Mami is kinda 1:1 - the reason it hits Mami so hard is that she's been mentoring and helping younger magical girls, and now realizes that encouraging them to contract was leading them to this awful outcome, that her efforts weren't just in vain but were maybe actively harmful, and that she might have slipped too far down the slope to stop that or recover. (Which is why she tries to halt the process as directly as she can, in that one scene, to my read? It's the only thing to stop it getting worse that she's thinking of.)

Homura is similar - the potential bomb means that not only has she been struggling without success for a long time, but that the struggle itself has been making it worse, that if she had given up trying to save Madoka it's possible Madoka would have been safer and better off. It invalidates what is essentially her reason for living, right now, and if we aren't prepared to immediately get her across that gap and realize there's still a way to succeed that's an enormous blow. It's a much more personal fear to touch on for Homura than Mami, who we've spent more time helping and building up structure so she has hope and feels like she's making a positive impact on things - Homura is still basically betting on the plan with us this loop to get there, but what does she have outside of saving Madoka to think about? So that's where the risk comes in.
 
Ok. Why? No judgment or sarcasm, genuinely why is this so much worse than every other bomb that we can drop. Worse than telling Mami about the time loops, the witch/litch bombs and the meta knowledge. We've told the constellations about the twin goddess and yeah we haven't seen the full fallout of that, but to me we've handled worse and tackled tougher than this.

I'm actually thinking that we tell Homura this and Mami about the witches together, as a way to have them both focus on the things that make both of those truth bearable. For Mami the fact that Homura is on the case regarding everything, and for Homura a way to show her that her actions have unquestionably helped things and put us in a position to win the whole damn war.

I don't understand why telling Homura this fact will crush her so completely that the undeniable truth that she has saved so many wouldn't reach her, and fern saying that there will be consequences to this action doesn't necessarily mean that they will be bad in one's. Getting Homura through this hurdle might be just the thing to set her on a path to start clearing most of her mental blocks.

So what am I missing right now. No judgment and no anger, what do you think we might lose doing this that convinces you that it's likely not with the risk. That trying to keep this from her is worth risking Kyubey having the initiative on this.

Because everything that Homura does she does it for Madoka, her entire wish revolves around her, she has completely devoted herself to her so that she could save her, its Madoka who keept her going all of this time no matter how much she suffered trying to get Madoka alive past that dreaded day.

She thought her wish was perfect for it, that so long as she had it she could keep going without consequences and try again.

But her wish tied her too much to her, with each rewind Madoka's potential became stronger, and its was already very strong already.

That amount of potential draws Kyubey to Madoka like no other girl ever has, making him want to make a contract with her very badly.

Homura never wanted her to deal with meguca stuff but her wish made that pretty much impossible, until eventually she lost Madoka in a way that she couldnt rewind.... Until she became the devil herself.

In her mind she is likely going to see this as her making everything worse all of this time and thats not even mentioning her power doesnt seem to be really rewinding time....

At that point if we ever tell her, the chances of it going very wrong are high, like, what would happen if Homura started to reject her own wish? Would she just lose time stop before Wally? What about those timelines on her shield or Madoka herself since she is kinda tied to said wish herself???

The ammount of grief could end up being so great that she might even just witch out on the spot.

'course, we have made progress with her, but currently it doesnt feel like enough progress to tell her the heaviest bomb to her.

But I could be wrong, though its not sonething I would like to bet on.
 
The most likely result of telling the potential bomb to Homura is still rejecting her wish IMO.

It absolutely does change the quest in a huge way, as Firn said, we rely so much on her timestop having it gone, especially right before Walmart, would torpedo every single one of our plans for the event.

It also considerably changes a lot of how we operate, relying on Homura to be able to defend mitikahara by herself or being able to retaliate quickly to attacks is all thanks to timestop, traveling pretty much instantly anywhere and thus cramming more things in our days is thanks to timestop.
 
The comparison with witch bombing Mami is kinda 1:1 - the reason it hits Mami so hard is that she's been mentoring and helping younger magical girls, and now realizes that encouraging them to contract was leading them to this awful outcome, that her efforts weren't just in vain but were maybe actively harmful, and that she might have slipped too far down the slope to stop that or recover. (Which is why she tries to halt the process as directly as she can, in that one scene, to my read? It's the only thing to stop it getting worse that she's thinking of.)

Homura is similar - the potential bomb means that not only has she been struggling without success for a long time, but that the struggle itself has been making it worse, that if she had given up trying to save Madoka it's possible Madoka would have been safer and better off. It invalidates what is essentially her reason for living, right now, and if we aren't prepared to immediately get her across that gap and realize there's still a way to succeed that's an enormous blow. It's a much more personal fear to touch on for Homura than Mami, who we've spent more time helping and building up structure so she has hope and feels like she's making a positive impact on things - Homura is still basically betting on the plan with us this loop to get there, but what does she have outside of saving Madoka to think about? So that's where the risk comes in.
Ok, I think I get it now. I still believe it's best to tell her, but it might be better to set the sage a little.

The trick to get her over this is two fold. One, we redefine Homura's definition of failure. Because she hasn't failed, not once. She's saved Madoka, Sayaka, Kyokuo, Mami, and every other girl who would have witch out during her time loops. It is a fact that without her efforts, dozens of of people would be dead or worse. And she's been getting closer and closer to her goal. It just takes time.

The second is is connecting saving the world to saving Madoka. Which is true because Madoka won't accept a world where she has to live with the Maguda system and the Incubators in general. Regardless of wheather or not Homura kills Wally. Because Wally isn't really the problem for her. She's just the catalyst that the Incubator uses to show Madoka that she's needed. And it has a multitude of ways of showing that.

I've been thinking that we can take care of all of this in one go, by connecting Madoka's potential with our ability to help things this time, and how Homura's action's have saved Mami and created us. By convincing her that she has been inadvertently doing an excellent job of saving the world, and by extension saving Madoka. I still think it's possible, but it might pay more to set some ground work for this. Like, we don't need to bring up her potential to get her to see that she hasn't been failing. We can tackle that first, and then try to connect saving Madoka with saving the world then connect her potential pumping with her putting her self into a position to accomplish the final win.

we can talk this out with Mami, including our worries about her rejecting her wish and if it might be worth it. But the way I see it, Homura's wish is perfect for what she set out to accomplish. Maybe not in the way she was expecting, but perfect in a way that is more real then most wishes turn out. We just need to convince her of that.

Edit: one caveat, the part about not failing can't come from us. We are here to help, literally born for that in our eyes, so we would tell her this regardless. That's just who we are and it might be why we can't fix this on our own. But it can come from, and mean so much more coming from Mami. Who owes our existence to Homura, and every drop of hope that we have inspired in her.

And that actually might be something that Homura can understand. The feeling of having someone come in like a whirlwind and change your view on this earth forever. What might it mean to Homura, to know that she was responsible for bringing someone else's Madoka. And not just anyone, but Mami, her mentor. I have a hard time believing she would reject her wish if she understands that it brought something like that into the world.
 
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Homura never wanted her to deal with meguca stuff
Not true. Homura was happy to be a Magical Girl fighting alongside Madoka in the second timeline. She was overjoyed to be able to fight alongside her.

She only decided to stop Madoka from becoming a Magical Girl after the third timeline. The timeline where Sayaka witched out, Mami killed Kyoko, Madoka killed Mami, and then in the end, Madoka prevented Homura from Witching out using Sayaka's Grief Seed, begged Homura to keep Kyubey from tricking her again, and then asked for a mercy kill that Homura performed.

That immense pile of trauma is what convinced Homura to start viewing Madoka becoming a Magical Girl as a failure condition. And Madoka contracting then immediately turning into a world ending super-witch in timeline 4 helped cement the idea.
like, what would happen if Homura started to reject her own wish?
Her soul would twist in on itself in an agonizing fashion, but she would push through it with that utterly unbreakable will that has carried her for over a decade of marching through hell. That pain itself would become precious to her. She would gain the power to give everyone she cares about happy lives, but would hate herself for doing it.

Homufer would happen. Whether Homufer existed before or not.
 
She's saved Madoka, Sayaka, Kyokuo, Mami, and every other girl who would have witch out during her time loops.

Errr not really? Well kinda?

Those timelines dont seem to be erased and she even seems capable of going back to them with her shield, she currently doesnt know this tho.

She even has some grief seeds from some of our friends witches... I dont know how she would react to that.

She is saving them now, atleast these ones, the other ones... Well we were disscussing about dealing with potential duplicates before so we could save a few of the ones that witched out and Homura saved.

Not true. Homura was happy to be a Magical Girl fighting alongside Madoka in the second timeline. She was overjoyed to be able to fight alongside her.

Ah thats true, its easy to forget about that cause... Well Homura was just so different back then.
 
She only decided to stop Madoka from becoming a Magical Girl after the third timeline. The timeline where Sayaka witched out, Mami killed Kyoko, Madoka killed Mami, and then in the end, Madoka prevented Homura from Witching out using Sayaka's Grief Seed, begged Homura to keep Kyubey from tricking her again, and then asked for a mercy kill that Homura performed.

That immense pile of trauma is what convinced Homura to start viewing Madoka becoming a Magical Girl as a failure condition. And Madoka contracting then immediately turning into a world ending super-witch in timeline 4 helped cement the idea.
My memory is a bit foggy but isnt MADOKA HERSELF who asked Homura to stop her from becoming meguca? Thats a very important distinction to make

EDIT: Found it. That was Madoka's dying wish, Homura would honor it no matter what. So no Meguca Madoka at least until Walpurgis bites it. Probably not even after.

View: https://imgur.com/zB8oOsE
 
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My memory is a bit foggy but isnt MADOKA HERSELF who asked Homura to stop her from becoming meguca? Thats a very important distinction to make
Madoka did not ask Homura to stop her from becoming a Magical Girl. She asked Homura to prevent her from being stupid and to prevent Kyubey from tricking her. Homura interpreted that as stopping her from becoming a Magical Girl, but that is not what she said.

I just looked it up and rewatched the scene:
 
Madoka did not ask Homura to stop her from becoming a Magical Girl. She asked Homura to prevent her from being stupid and to prevent Kyubey from tricking her. Homura interpreted that as stopping her from becoming a Magical Girl, but that is not what she said.

I just looked it up and rewatched the scene:

The problem is, under Kyubey's ruleset its one and the same. I am absolutely with Homura on this one. Until dewitching and artificial clear seeds are a thing that most definitely exists and widely available, we should not push or, preferably, even allow anyone to sign the contract. After? Not much of a problem.
 
The problem is, under Kyubey's ruleset its one and the same. I am absolutely with Homura on this one. Until dewitching and artificial clear seeds are a thing that most definitely exists and widely available, we should not push or, preferably, even allow anyone to sign the contract. After? Not much of a problem.
It is not the same thing.

Homura not understanding what Madoka was asking her in that moment is a very important part of the problem. Homura and Madoka not understanding one another in general is at the root of their entire tragedy.

Kyubey and his system are not important. They exist only to provide the framework in which that tragedy happens. They are props. Narrative framework.

We can break the props and the framework, but we won't fix the tragedy until Madoka and Homura can communicate in a way that they both understand one another.
 
even allow anyone to sign the contract

This part I dont agree with, if someone wants to make a wish I dont think we should stop them, just make them VERY aware of the cost and consequences.

Even Madoka for as much as we dont want her to contract... We cant really stop her from doing so if she truly wants to, its just something we are hoping to avoid by making it clear to her about the consequences.
 
Kyubey and his system are not important. They exist only to provide the framework in which that tragedy happens. They are props. Narrative framework.
They are not framework, they are RAILS that lead to doom. And until you break free, there's no salvation. Kyubey and his system ARE important. Its in the name of this quest even. Sabrina's entire existence as Outside Context Problem with unprecedented power is here to bring down the system. Madoka and Homura would never reach consensus in the system. Madoka wants to break it too once she realizes all horrors if meguca situation but she can only do so from within the system; enter Homura not wanting Madoka to be anywhere near close to it. As long as system exists in Incubator's iteration, Madoka would always try to save people from it and Homura would always try to save Madoka.

So I disagree. You cannot stop tragedy until the thing that facilitates that tragedy exists. Break the system - save Madoka. Save Madoka - save Homura.

This part I dont agree with, if someone wants to make a wish I dont think we should stop them, just make them VERY aware of the cost and consequences.

Even Madoka for as much as we dont want her to contract... We cant really stop her from doing so if she truly wants to, its just something we are hoping to avoid by making it clear to her about the consequences.
I vehemently disagree with this sentiment but I realize that I am probably the only one who thinks so on this thread hence why I added "preferably". If people want this badly to die fine, but at least lets not push people into this life until we have means to sustain them.
 
All of these oh-so-clever arguments people are coming up with for how actually the potentialbomb is a good thing, or that it's not that bad, or that they don't understand what the problem is, allow me to point out a line from the update that we just fucking had:
Because trauma isn't rational.

And all you have are rational arguments.
You're not going to technicality your way around this. You're not going to "facts and logic" your way around this. "But I don't get it" bully for you, you're not Homura Akemi, you get to enjoy not having to get it.
 
All of these oh-so-clever arguments people are coming up with for how actually the potentialbomb is a good thing, or that it's not that bad, or that they don't understand what the problem is, allow me to point out a line from the update that we just fucking had:

You're not going to technicality your way around this. You're not going to "facts and logic" your way around this. "But I don't get it" bully for you, you're not Homura Akemi, you get to enjoy not having to get it.
The thing I dont get is why people in such a hurry to drop it. There's literally no gain whatsoever even if you decide to use cold hard logic. Just why. If anything, it not only leaves Homura borderline catatonic and unable to fight, the revelation itself is utterly useless; its only interesting in academic understanding of potential and time-travel, Niko and any other (Mad) Scientist megucas would probably find that fascinating and thats it.
 
I vehemently disagree with this sentiment but I realize that I am probably the only one who thinks so on this thread hence why I added "preferably". If people want this badly to die fine, but at least lets not push people into this life until we have means to sustain them.

I honestly understand where ya coming from.

Little girls should not by anymeans be given such power and having to fight to survive and keep using it, they are children most of them and most dont make it past the first year.

But I will still say its their choice in the end, with the really young ones maybe make restrictions that they can only contract at a certain age but completely blocking the option is something I dont agree with.

We aint here to police the system, we are here to break it apart and fix it back together better, and make everyones lives better.
 
The thing I dont get is why people in such a hurry to drop it. There's literally no gain whatsoever even if you decide to use cold hard logic. Just why. If anything, it not only leaves Homura borderline catatonic and unable to fight, the revelation itself is utterly useless; its only interesting in academic understanding of potential and time-travel, Niko and any other (Mad) Scientist megucas would probably find that fascinating and thats it.
Are you thinking about the differences between a situation where Kyuubey tells Homura what her timeloops are doing at the worst moment to shove her trauma in her face VS a situation where Homura finds out while surrounded her friends to help her deal with her trauma?
No one has said anything about "gaining" anything, only preventing Kyuubey from using a partial truth to witch-out Homura.

Personally, I'm on board with getting (at least) both Homura and Madoka a perception/censor filter and keeping them in communications through non-Incubator methods.

Also, anyone have any thoughts on Madoka intuiting the LoopBomb? All this planning for blocking Kyuubey, not telling Homura or telling Homura in the right way, all of that is worthless if Madoka tries to forgive Homura for turning her into Kyuubait.
 
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Are you thinking about the differences between a situation where Kyuubey tells Homura what her timeloops are doing at the worst moment to shove her trauma in her face VS a situation where Homura finds out while surrounded her friends to help her deal with her trauma?
No one has said anything about "gaining" anything, only preventing Kyuubey from using a partial truth to witch-out Homura.

Personally, I'm on board with getting both Homura and Madoka a perception/censor filter and keeping them in communications through non-Incubator methods.

Also, anyone have any thoughts on Madoka intuiting the LoopBomb? All this planning for blocking Kyuubey, not telling Homura or telling Homura in the right way, all of that is worthless if Madoka tries to forgive Homura for turning her into Kyuubait.

Pretty sure Madoka would have to go sherlock holmes on drugs to figure it out.... She doesnt even know about the loops.
 
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