Would we though?
We don't necessarily need to perceive kyubey to use telepathy through him.
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Would we though?
We don't necessarily need to perceive kyubey to use telepathy through him.
Lopezelpesado
Space worm best worm.
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Pretty sure a telephatic network could be done with magic with not that many issues, but I would not trust it much.
Mainly cause Kyubey would likely be able to just bs his way in.
Mainly cause Kyubey would likely be able to just bs his way in.
ExploerTM
Ruin has found you at last!
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Isnt point of independent network not infosec but not relaying on Kyubey's good will? Kyubey can just cut people out of his network any time he likes, if we get our own we get stable communication. Yes, Kyubey most likely will be able wiretap it but given that we currently literally using his own one, does it really matter at least short term? And long term we might find a way to alien-proof it.
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Telepathy is us giving Kyubey a message and asking him to tell someone else what we said.
Lopezelpesado
Space worm best worm.
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One meguca that I think could do that is that digital meguca, i think, possibly. And with the help of Niko.
No.
Telepathy has him as a relay, but not necessarily one we need to perceive to use, as he isn't the one talking on the other side, he just transmit the message.
You don't need to be able to look at a modem to use internet, nor did you need to be able to understand this (unpleasant noises in the link) when this was still used, why wouldn't the same thing happen with this?
If the mindfield stops people from seeing Kuybey or hearing his telepathic voice, it doesn't mean they can't hear others telepathic voices.
Since we don't intend to make the same field as Kazumi magica had, so not forgetting Kyubey exists, we can simply make the field in a way that allows transmitting messages but not hearing specifically Kyubey's.
Edit:
This can even be tested easily, just create a small field as proof of concept and try to use telepathy from inside it, high chances that it works no problems.
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What do you think a relay is?
Kyubey is making the "noises" in our heads the same way a telephone is making the noises that we hear when we talk on the phone. Like the phone, he is mimicking the noises he hears accurately enough for us to distinguish voices, but that doesn't mean it's not still him doing it.
I agree it's likely possible to filter Kyubey's telepathic "voice" in a way that doesn't filter out other people's "voices". Another angle might be to work out a method of encrypting our own telepathic communications so that what we transmit through Kyubey's network is unintelligible without the decryption key. Magic might be able to create a kind of conceptual encryption that the Incubators can't crack. This would allow us to effectively create a VPN over Kyubey's network.
But in general, I think it would be a better idea overall to just start giving all our contacts our phone number and stop relying on telepathy so much. Especially for emergencies, when Kyubey would be most motivated to manufacture an excuse for an "outage" like the one that led to Madoka ending up alone in Charlotte's barrier because Mami was "out of range" when her Grief Seed mysteriously turned up right in Madoka and Sayaka's path.
ExploerTM
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So basically turning Kyubey's (possible) perception filter (which he may be uses to hide from muggles) against him? Yeah, that should work better than flatout forgetting he exists.
Thats not how that works. Connection is upheld by a single wire for both in and out; if you cutting it (making yourself forget about/unable to perceive Kyubey) then no data is send to you, or rather it doesnt go through because you ignore source so it gets blocked out, and no data is send from you since you dont know where to send data. Handshake not happening - no data send or received.
Assuming Kyubey does in fact act as a router for the whole system. Which seems to be the most likely variant.
Not guaranteed, I probably used the wrong term but can't find the correct one:
I think he transmits a signal that already exists and amplifies it, not that he is taking one from one part and recreating it wholesale for the other side. He's not the loudspeaker in my head, he's the wire, and you don't need to interact with the wire to hear what the loudspeaker says.
No matter what, I really think that this belief that we wouldn't be able to have telepathy with a system that only block the ability to sense Kyubey is wrong and should be challenged, as I said, we can even test for it.
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I don't disagree that a system that locks out Kyubey's telepathic "voice" and lets other telepathic "voices" through is possible, but we need to think of it in those terms, because whatever metaphor we want to use for it, Kyubey "talks" using the exact same telepathy network he gives us access to.
On a somewhat related note, Kyubey gives us access to telepathy because it benefits Kyubey. He can cut anyone he likes off from it as easily as he linked Hitomi in. The rules for who gets connected to whom are all there for his convenience and can be changed on a whim, as seen with his letting Voldemort brainmail us when he wouldn't let us talk to anyone we hadn't previously met or been introduced to.
It may well be that there is no technical obstacle to shadowbanning Kyubey from his own telepathy network, but he doesn't have to let us keep using it if he deems the loss of access will be a better encouragement to get us to let him back in versus the benefit he can extract by us continuing to route our communications through infrastructure he continues to control and monitor. This same problem makes my VPN idea less likely to work.
I still think we should take advantage of the existing human built global communications infrastructure to be less dependent on the goodwill of the evil alien who's day job is torturing children to insanity and stealing their souls.
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The main problem with that way of thinking is that a lot of those we want to reach are utterly dependent on said alien's infrastructure to be able to communicate in an actually useful way.
Plus, while we are dependent on the whims of Kyubey for telepathy, it is good to remember that no emotions means no grudges, and thus that while he may cut communications, he is extremely unlikely to do so at perpetuity.
ExploerTM
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With that we run into problem of limitations of said infrastructure. I for once cannot recall whether or not you can make a call from within a labyrinth but I am leaning towards no... Not to mention, Kyubey probably can still interact with said infrastructure in one way or the other, at least because there are no video evidence of meguca fights so he has to block those off somehow (especially if someone straight up catches fight on a live stream).
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I'm confused. Who are you talking about? We already have to go meet people before Kyubey will give us their brainmail number. Why wouldn't we be able to swap phone numbers while we're there? (Or in the case of those without them, give them a cell phone?)
I agree that he doesn't hold a grudge, and that is very important to keep in mind in all our potential interactions with Kyubey.
My concern is not so much about grudge holding as it is about why he offers us access to telepathy in the first place. He doesn't have to offer that service, and we've seen him grant and deny that service for his own ends. This is in contrast with how he responded when Madoka made a wish he absolutely did not want to grant at the end of the series, but did so anyway, because he didn't have a choice, whether due to alien ethics or built in limitations.
Kyubey offers telepathy because it benefits him. He offers mind wipes for masquerade upkeep because it benefits him. And whenever it stops benefitting him, he will stop offering those services.
Kyubey obviously can interfere with mundane communications. But doing so is a more active step than passively no longer offering his own services in that regard. The way he draws distinctions between lies of omission versus literal untruths suggest to me that he may well put that sort of active comms jamming in a separate ethical category from passively not sending our messages through the comms infrastructure he gives us access to.
Communications from other countries (can very quickly cost a lot, and we know exactly one hacker guca, one that asks for quite the sum to do her work, meaning the exact same problem), someone that doesn't want to have a constant way to follow them in their pockets (which phones very much are)... anyone and everyone that doesn't have a house will find telepathy way, way, way easier to use than a phone for a multitude of reasons, and they also just happen to be our main clientele.
Also, what if they refuse the phone, because we could use it against them? (For example, by following them?) Need I remind you of the fact that we don't have Kanna's phone (the one she doesn't have and wouldn't accept) but can still contact her thanks to telepathy?
We also don't necessarily need to meet them to have their brainmail number, if we meet someone who can put us in contact with them, then we have it from there on (almost certain of that one, it happened in this quest, pretty sure).
Edit:
Really want to emphasize on the case of Kanna, your proposition about phones only works for allies or close to it, it leaves out all that are even the slightest bit untrustful towards us.
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I suppose that makes more sense. Kyubey has done a terrific job of cultivating dependence on his services.
I do think it would be wise to try spreading our phone number among our allies regardless. This is especially relevant to Sabrina in particular even if Kyubey were completely trustworthy as a service provider, since Sabrina goes into trances, hops in and out of privacy spheres, and is generally out of contact at various points. And Kyubey doesn't offer a voicemail service. Mami not being able to contact us telepathically when we were trancing led to serious problems before we knew about the trances, and we seem to have unfortunately become the primary point of contact for a lot of our allies.
(I suppose we could ask Kyubey to set up a voicemail service for Sabrina if we wanted to get even more dependent on his services. He'd probably agree for that reason alone, just like he agreed to wire Hitomi in.)
Edison_Trent
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At least for the perception device already built by Niko, it does block telepathy in and out, even when only blocking the holder from everyone elses, as seen with the Asanaro situation where Niko's wish-clone was unable to Kyuubey-based-telepathy while under its influence.
For stangers, Kyuubey's telepathy network is simply the best possible thing at the moment. First, it's already the "gold standard" of meguca communication and it can be used to form telepathic group chats instantly across the world with complete strangers, so long as even one person in the group chat is able to form a link, letting that new person form a link and so on. If Kyuubey has the bandwidth (it probably does) and the inclination (it probably doesn't) we could have every single magical girl, every potential, and anyone that is authorized telepathy access like Hitomi, all in a single simultaneous chat for Earth-spanning announcements. All people being 3-5 degrees of seperation from each other and all that.
For Mitikahara residents and Constellation allies, Hitomi and Madoka have enough $$$ to get us military radios and wireless/helmet earpieces to mostly simulate telepathy during Walpurgisnacht. People should probably be wearing enchanted helmets for that fight anyway. No good having stray rocks and shrapnel body-kill people.
Lopezelpesado
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Pretty sure that in Magic record some girls made their own telepathy network... That or in spin off... Still Reco is a nono but I like to think we could still make our own.
Why not try making a few enchanted rings that let us talk to each other? That sounds like something Mami could do easily.
Just use the enchanment booster to easily make the rings and then have Mami reverse engineer them.
Why not try making a few enchanted rings that let us talk to each other? That sounds like something Mami could do easily.
Just use the enchanment booster to easily make the rings and then have Mami reverse engineer them.
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mumi very smort.
Honestly a telepathy network is probably something feasible in PMAS too. You don't even need to look at MagiReco for that. Let's say Sayaka gets a copy of a magical girl who's powers are communication, and that's probably it. You suddenly have a secured telepathy network. I don't think the ability is so rare that we'll never find it.
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we'll still need a whitelist of sorts so that we can kick and permaban Kyubey from it
i still insist on using Juubey as a relay, might as well give Kyubeys less evil cousin some use
Edison_Trent
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Ah, a thought that occured as I was re-reading: if the gang is going to block out Kyuubey from being percieved by Madoka and Homura, it'll want to be accomplished in as much possible secrecy as able and be done probably about a week before the big fight and all the way through it. Oriko's prediction schedule for Homura getting Madoka-Potential-Bombed by Kyuubey was for a a few days before Walpurgisnacht, as all/most of Constellation's allies are gathered to do prep beforehand.
Oriko also said that Sabrina being there when Homura learns of the loops Potential effects (heh) would be enough to keep Homura from full Grief spiraling, but also that Madoka being there would make things worse, so if Kyuubey is the one pulling the trigger on its own timetable, then it is going to be when Homura is alone and watching Madoka from a convenient tree or studying at her house or something along those lines.
We don't know exactly when the Incubator discovers that bomb, but if it knows about the bomb and knows about the plan to keep it from being able to contact our group, it will definitely drop the bomb while it still can, because why not? Choosing not to drop the bomb early would be the same as not doing it at all, for it.
Another one of the ways the Madoka-Bomb gets revealed to Homura is from Madoka herself, as she figures out her own secret from the context clues everyone else gives off, just like Sayaka caught on to Sabrina and Homura talking in secret about the Witchbomb. If Sabrina ends up in a situation where she needs to warn Madoka about all the things, she would also need to be warned about NOT telling Homura that she "forgives her for being selfish" (or anything else along those lines) without Sabrina being present and ready to cleanse.
Just a feeling, but I'm willing to bet even a Clear Seed wouldn't cover Homura's Grief Spiral in that situation. If Homura hasn't been Therapied enough by the time that reveal happens, even Sabrina might not be enough, her soul might go from 0-100 instantly.
Oriko also said that Sabrina being there when Homura learns of the loops Potential effects (heh) would be enough to keep Homura from full Grief spiraling, but also that Madoka being there would make things worse, so if Kyuubey is the one pulling the trigger on its own timetable, then it is going to be when Homura is alone and watching Madoka from a convenient tree or studying at her house or something along those lines.
We don't know exactly when the Incubator discovers that bomb, but if it knows about the bomb and knows about the plan to keep it from being able to contact our group, it will definitely drop the bomb while it still can, because why not? Choosing not to drop the bomb early would be the same as not doing it at all, for it.
Another one of the ways the Madoka-Bomb gets revealed to Homura is from Madoka herself, as she figures out her own secret from the context clues everyone else gives off, just like Sayaka caught on to Sabrina and Homura talking in secret about the Witchbomb. If Sabrina ends up in a situation where she needs to warn Madoka about all the things, she would also need to be warned about NOT telling Homura that she "forgives her for being selfish" (or anything else along those lines) without Sabrina being present and ready to cleanse.
Just a feeling, but I'm willing to bet even a Clear Seed wouldn't cover Homura's Grief Spiral in that situation. If Homura hasn't been Therapied enough by the time that reveal happens, even Sabrina might not be enough, her soul might go from 0-100 instantly.
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I thought Oriko told us Kyubey already knows and that he is just waiting to drop it.
We haven't figured out if he knows because we weren't careful early on and Kyubey figured out how Homura's power worked, and thus the time travel thing, or if he knew before we showed up in some fashion related to the larger secrets like Homura's shield being in the wrong configuration.
Ariesthegolden
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I'm absolutely certain that is the case. It's a large part of my argument for telling Homura already, especially because I think I've figured out how break the news to her. Mentioning how everyone would have died or worse without her intervention, and that we are absolutely certain that our existence wouldn't be possible without Madoka's potential pumping, so we owe our existence directly to Homura's.
We should also bring Mami because Homura's can't really take our word that she's doing more harm then good, because our purpose is likely to help her and we would do a lot for that, but Mami can thank her for all of that.
But to be clear are we thinking of telling Homura soon? I know that now right now is a bad idea, we've already put a lot on her, but soon? Tomorrow at the latest.
Lopezelpesado
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Im not certain nor confident at the moment to be honest.
Firn said that telling her would have major consequences in quest... This could be from Homura doing something, to even feathers itself doing something....
I was hoping we tell her after we defeated Wally since I felt that would be around the best time but I am unsure...
I do want to witch bomb Mami before Wally arrives tho.
we kind of don't have the time, it's do or die