Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[HeroCycle]

Let our powers unite. The correct integration seems to me not as a Frankenvote.

Everything we are thinking about the progress with Kyouko could actually be simple?

If we take all the good analysis about how she binds her worldview, and accept that as "who she is right now," our job becomes a bit easier?

This isn't a girl you overpower. She can be moved by observing examples around her. If one influences those things around her, one can communicate deeply. We rocked her world. We are in the middle of the resulting communication ATM.

The format is about as important as the message in this communication.
Since Kyouko forces certain formats upon us, like her insistence that the good we did for her is "a transaction," we have no choice but to get all Zen on her. Well, no more entertaining choice, specifically.


What do we want, as asked? She already knows, so don't disappoint Kyouko. She has a good idea of who we are.

What do we want, from our perspective? Time, always we need more time.

Further, make the "exchange" big enough to seem fair for "a sense of belonging and stability." Giving her the homestead has a practical price among muggles, don't re-invent the wheel.

Give her the choices, and tell her we believe in her being herself, very strongly. That is really all that our metaknowledge adds up to. And we already made it fair - has Kyouko ever met a Magical Girl easier to read than Sabrina?

The thing we say to her ought to be measurable, finite. If she is looking for downsides, keeping it real is cool.

Be a right and proper philosopher Nun to her. Play Kyouko to her Kyouko?

The essential idea is that she has to do a part of the "be Sabrina" job two days a week to pay off her mortgage. We need part-timers!

[X] Tell her that the other part of our package is that understanding the real Sabrina is easy for most everyone. And knowing a few facts about someone isn't a magical weapon. We just wind up liking people a bit easily. We take care to keep the private stuff private.
[X] She wants to pay? O.K.,
[X] Interested in "what we have been feeding Sayaka?"
[X] It will be the same thing on her plate
[X] Two days a week, she does help other Magical Girls.
[X] We supply girls with issues, she picks what to be responsible for.
[X] She does so by joining up with the girls in Mitakihara who are up for helping on that day.
[X] About five years worth sounds right?

No big talk about Mami now.

We don't launch a Mami Restoration Plan today, because if this (getting a commuting schedule) works the two will naturally re-connect at some point without that.

Simply by getting a field where Kyouko can greatly raise her self-esteem, and by keeping her in Mami's orbit, most of our goal is going to fulfilled. They need a change of context, and a chance. They may also need a Kazumi, and as luck has it we obtained one. As time advances, we need but pay attention. We ended Kyouko's struggle for survival already. After she emotionally accepts that, other social goals might emerge. Her role as a big sister is likely to continue forcing her into growth, if the resources allow. Kyouko is already on the way to where we want her, as long as we don't overplay our role.

 

[Onmur]

By the way, while I'm still unsure whether to go straight to the point or not... and Kyouko's been urging to do so this update... If she does agree to talk with Mami, I think we're gonna ask her to wait and let us talk with mami about it first, yes?

We don't have to pretend. If Kyouko agrees to talk with Mami, we can tell Mami we got Kyouko to do so. We can let her know exactly what we agreed, so Mami doesn't let her hopes wildly shake all over the place.

And we probably want to be with Mami, joined by hugs, when Kyouko does talk with her?

And they would talk through telepathy, yes? I'm not sure it's a good idea for them to meet face to face yet.

 

[Spectral Waltz]

[x] Ask if she really wants to pay you back.
-[x] If so, ask her to help Mami.
--[x] Explain how Mami's been doing. Her loneliness. How much it helped her to reconnect with a friend.
--[x] You know neither of them really wanted to break up. Call bullshit as necessary. Specially if Kyouko pulls the 'I make everything worse' card.
--[x] You know Mami would love to be able to talk with Kyouko.
---[x] Not necessarily as friends, you can't force that, but to put the hurt feelings to rest?


I don't like Godwinson's 'if she insists on treating it as a debt' part of the vote. We've already tried to bypass that twice now and it's clear she's having none of it. Let's maybe not keep pushing that particular button and cut straight to the point lest we alienate her?

 

[Onmur]

[x] Ask if she really wants to pay you back.
-[x] If so, ask her to help Mami.
--[x] Explain how Mami's been doing. Her loneliness. How much it helped her to reconnect with a friend.
--[x] You know neither of them really wanted to break up. Call bullshit as necessary. Specially if Kyouko pulls the 'I make everything worse' card.
--[x] You know Mami would love to be able to talk with Kyouko.
---[x] Not necessarily as friends, you can't force that, but to put the hurt feelings to rest?

I'm still unsure. There are good points in other votes, but I do feel the straight and to the point approach might be what's necessary.

EDIT: Besides Homu's advice to be honest with Kyouko, knowing we have this tendency to elaborate our points further than people usually want to hear us talk...

"Mmmhm," Kyouko grumbles, waving an arm. "Get on with it."

Click to shrink...

Kyouko makes a faintly irritated noise and a 'hurry up' gesture.

Click to shrink...

"Fucking hell," Kyouko mutters. "I... fine. What do you want? You want to help me? You have. What do you want from me?"

Click to shrink...

Kyouko's... impatient? Wanting? I would guess she might blow up a bit if we take the most direct path, as I'm voting right now, but if we don't, I'm not sure she'll take it better. Koko's complicated. :/

 

[Redshirt Army]

Hmmm. Kyouko would probably appreciate us cutting to the point.

[x] Onmur

 

[Lord Chungus]

Inserted tally

Adhoc vote count started by Lord Chungus on Dec 26, 2018 at 12:24 PM, finished with 148779 posts and 11 votes.

• ---

  5 people have voted

  [x] Ask if she really wants to pay you back.
  -[x] If so, ask her to help Mami.
  --[x] Explain how Mami's been doing. Her loneliness. How much it helped her to reconnect with a friend.
  --[x] You know neither of them really wanted to break up. Call bullshit as necessary. Specially if Kyouko pulls the 'I make everything worse' card.
  --[x] You know Mami would love to be able to talk with Kyouko.
  ---[x] Not necessarily as friends, you can't force that, but to put the hurt feelings to rest?

  • Aranfan
  • Spectral Waltz
  • Onmur
  • zxzx24
  • Redshirt Army

  3 people have voted

  [X] "What do I want from you? What do you want from Yuma, or Yuma want from you? I woke up with nothing except these weird pseudo-memories of the lives of girls I had never met before, and I knew just how badly the world screwed them over. And, surprise, surprise! Basic human nature means that you tend to care about the happiness and wellbeing of the first people you know about in life, you're more affected by what happens to them and how they act toward you. I might want to help everyone and fix everything, but I'm here because I care about the two of you. I care about your happiness as an end unto itself."
  -[X] Tone: Earnest conviction. Sabrina cares about everyone, but she cares even more about the people her metaknowledge focused on.
  [X] If Kyouko persists in needing to treat this as a debt owed, then ask her to have a talk with Mami as a favor to you. Not asking her to be friendly or to reconcile, just to have an honest talk without trying to start shit up. If she doesn't want to do that, then that's fine, you're not wanting her to treat this as a debt to repay to begin with.

  • Godwinson
  • Gadjo
  • Norad the Borad

  1 people have voted

  [X] Check Kyouko's gem / offer cleanse if appropriate.
  [X] She doesn't get it, does she?
  -[X] Her happiness is an end goal for you.
  --[X] That's how humans work. We're social creatures, and when the people we care about are in bad places, it makes us unhappy. We can't just stop caring about someone.
  ---[X] And for you, this is much stronger. You woke up uncontracted in an alley with no memory of yourself and the backstories of roughly a dozen living girls in your head, all of whom were or would be in bad situations. Then you met them. You are literally in this for them -- for her.
  [X] If she wants to tell you that it'd make her happy for you to ask her to do something for you, then... You guess you'd have to accept that.

  • Kaizuki

  1 people have voted

  [X] We want a team, Kyouko. A meguca team.
  [X] Here's the thing: with our power, nobody has to compete for Grief Seeds any more.
  [X] We can gather as many girls as we want in Mitakihara, and not worry about running out of witches.
  [X] So we want a team, based in Mitakihara. More: we want a community. And we want all the meguca to join it.
  [X] We want you, Kyouko. You're a good person and an experienced fighter, and our community needs people like you.
  [X] You don't have to move if you don't want to. But you'll need to visit us, get to know people.
  [X] We want you for tea, and training, and karaoke. We might need you to help keep the peace.
  [X] You'll be a good fit. Sayaka likes you. Homura respects you. We have new meguca who will need training.
  [X] And Mami... Mami misses you. She needs friends.
  [X] Admittedly we haven't talked to her about this plan yet. But we really think she'll like it.
  [X] If Mami's okay with it... will you try it out?
  [X] This isn't a price, by the way. But you've asked what we want, and this is what we want.

  • Wirikidor

  1 people have voted

  [X] Tell her that the other part of our package is that understanding the real Sabrina is easy for most everyone. And knowing a few facts about someone isn't a magical weapon. We just wind up liking people a bit easily. We take care to keep the private stuff private.
  [X] She wants to pay? O.K.,
  [X] Interested in "what we have been feeding Sayaka?"
  [X] It will be the same thing on her plate
  [X] Two days a week, she does help other Magical Girls.
  [X] We supply girls with issues, she picks what to be responsible for.
  [X] She does so by joining up with the girls in Mitakihara who are up for helping on that day.
  [X] About five years worth sounds right?

  • HeroCycle

 

[Onmur]

[x] Ask if she really wants to pay you back.
-[x] If so, ask her to help Mami.
--[x] Explain how Mami's been doing. Her loneliness. How much it helped her to reconnect with a friend.
--[x] You know neither of them really wanted to break up. Call bullshit as necessary. Specially if Kyouko pulls the 'I make everything worse' card.
--[x] You know Mami would love to be able to talk with Kyouko.
---[x] Not necessarily as friends, you can't force that, but to put the hurt feelings to rest?

Click to shrink...

Just pointing my own wording problems because I'm not sure how to better phrase this.

This part sounds like we're telling Kyouko to reconcile with Mami. I want to mention the Mami-Kazusa reuniting, but the way I phrased it is problematic.

This is... maybe way too direct.

 

[Kaizuki]

This is, like, V4 or V5 by now lol.

"Fucking hell," Kyouko mutters. "I... fine. What do you want? You want to help me? You have. What do you want from me?"

Click to shrink...

the point.

Click to shrink...

Kyouko's... impatient? Wanting?

Click to shrink...

Oh.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh.

Welp. I feel reeeeeeeeal dumb right now. So, uh, new plan guys -- credit goes to Mami for this one, although I can't find quite the quote I'd thought existed somewhere -- something like "You've made me happier than I'd ever thought I could be."

Have a close substitute, which... honestly might even be more appropriate.

"You've given me everything, Sabrina," Mami murmurs quietly. Her breath disturbs the hair over your shoulder. "I... I know I said that already, but you have. I never thought I'd be here today, with friends all around me, talking to my old student again... I never thought I'd have someone like you with me. And it's everything."

Click to shrink...

The thing here is, looking at Kyouko's position, we have never given her any reason to believe we are capable of helping her in any way outside of the physical. Money? Food? Grief (remember, she's not lichbombed)? Keep the Sakura church from being demolished? Kyouko knows Sabrina can do these things, but as far as she's concerned, what else is there that Sabrina could do for her?

No, seriously. Ignore... it's a lot of stuff to ignore, but remember that she's ignorant of all of it -- ignore that we know she has these deeply rooted psychological issues, ignore the lichbomb, witchbomb, Kyubey trying to kill or witch everybody, the loopbomb which is basically that Kyubey traditionally has good odds on killing or witching everybody, the whole debacle with Mami because she doesn't know/understand that Mami would 100% love to have her back and she thinks she's at least made it clear to us that she wouldn't want to go back to Mami anyway...

If you ignore all this stuff, because she's unaware of it all, suddenly this whole thing makes too. Much. Sense.

"Well. I know things that I shouldn't," you say. "I guess you could say it's a kind of magic, but I don't know for sure why or how I know what I do - and mainly, that sums up to... rough backgrounds of a lot of people."

Kyouko doesn't react, other than her jaw tightening a bit.

You hope she's not gearing up to gut you.

"Including you," you add, folding your hands on your lap and trying not to fidget. "Stating the obvious, but... yeah. I more or less know what led to the Sakura church being abandoned, and... well. You deserve good things."

"Fucking hell," Kyouko mutters. "I... fine. What do you want? You want to help me? You have. What do you want from me?"

Click to shrink...

This last post -- we haven't given her enough information to change her perspective on the things I just went over. What's going on here is literally this:

"I'm trying to help you because the loss of your family and the events surrounding it sucked for you, and you deserve better."

"Fucking hell, I... fine. What do you want? You want to help me? You have. [You keep saying you want to help me. There is literally nothing more you could do for me at this point. How are you gonna help me?] What do you want from me?"

This... this is a really impressive roadblock. Like, please actually just go re-read that a couple times and think about it for a couple minutes. It's... problematic.

We've always kind of presented ourselves as a benefactor to Kyouko, really. And... she kind of opened up to us a little bit the one time with the church, but not about herself. If anybody, it's Yuma who -- apart from our metaknowledge -- would know the most about Kyouko's personal issues.

The result of this is that Kyouko just isn't conceiving of a context where we have any real knowledge of her personal issues, much less any real capability of contesting them / helping with them / being able to want to help her with them since we have given no indication of knowing they exist.

And getting her to conceive of such a context is a compound problem. For one thing, she really doesn't like the kind of extensive bush-beating that would be a part of trying to kind of circuitously arrive at "You have personal issues and I want to help with them..." Furthermore, she almost certainly doesn't recognize the issues we want to help her with as issues -- there's been nobody to tell her that no, she isn't to blame for what happened, except maybe Yuma, who she isn't going to listen to on that issue for a variety of reasons most of which boil down to "small child, biased," and in the end she doesn't see it as "I have issues with blaming myself for my family's deaths," she sees it as "I'm at fault for my family's deaths."

Honestly, given all of this, I don't think there's any real indirect route from where we are to Kyouko seeing us as being capable of helping her with something she doesn't think needs help or even can be helped with -- her perception of herself as arising from her perception of her past. And even if there were, well, to be honest, Kyouko is probably the kind of person who would just outright miss an implication that we know her thoughts on what happened and are saying that she still deserves good things (which in hindsight was something of an issue with last vote, but can be corrected now).

So, the thing I'm going to have to say is, there are two or three big standing issues.

Number one, Kyouko doesn't see how else we could help her.

Number two, Kyouko may have missed some key parts of what we were trying to convey to her -- specifically, that we don't just know what happened, we actually know how she felt about what happened.

Number three, TBH we aren't going to be able to fix either of those problems except by moving in a straight line, because she is completely predisposed to not thinking about the things we're trying to get as as being, well, things to be gotten at.

So, given that we're out to get her to view herself more positively, we're basically left with two options. One, we could figure on somehow manipulating things so that everything works out via reconciling her and Mami, and just getting her to spend time around our friends until she up and says something about her personal issues, and then we can try to convince her that no she's not a bad person and no she didn't do bad things and etcetera, because at the current rate, under the status quo -- it is never going to come up naturally.

Or two, we can actually tell Kyouko how we want to help her and what we want for her.

I don't like the first option, honestly. I think that given the context -- given this:

"Fucking hell, I... fine. What do you want? You want to help me? You have. [You keep saying you want to help me. There is literally nothing more you could do for me at this point. How are you gonna help me?] What do you want from me?"

Given that she doesn't see what else we could do to help her, I think proceeding to try to reconcile her and Mami as is cannot work. I think that in all honesty, if we convince her that Mami really, really wants friends and would really like it if Kyouko would be her friend, I don't think that resolves Kyouko's original reason for leaving her in the slightest. I think that the moment the words "We're there for her now" exit our mouth regarding Mami, I think Kyouko starts going, "well, Sabrina sure is a better friend than me. Mami may think she wants me around but she's better off without me." "Mami is/was lonely, and she'd rather have you than not" is a great angle, but honestly, I cannot see Kyouko's reaction being anything other than "She has you and those other people, she's better off without me." It's too consistent with her established character to go any other way. And that just shoots the entire thing in the foot at the get-go, because we cannot put Mami and Kyouko in the same room if Kyouko is going to be going, "Mami is better off without me."

No. Before we do that, we have to break up Kyouko's picture of herself as this person who is responsible for all of this awfulness, of this notion that she's a bad friend to have. And to accomplish that, well, there's only one correct course of action here, and Kyouko has told us what it is time and time again. And that course of action is to give her a straight answer to the question she asked us.

"Fucking hell," Kyouko mutters. "I... fine. What do you want? You want to help me? You have. What do you want from me?"

Click to shrink...

[X] Tone: quiet, final: What I want isn't something that you can just give to me, Kyouko. What I want is for you to recognize that over the course of the events that lead to your father's final actions, nothing you did was inherently wrong, and the suffering you've experienced, the hate you've pinned on yourself because of those actions: these things were and remain unjust and undeserved.







... More coming in a moment, I'm separating the next bit into another post in the interest of making it clear what I'm voting for, here, and to help delineate things. I think it's going to make sense to do it this way.

 

[Kaizuki]

Now, I think there's kind of a big question going on in the background of the details of the actual vote I wrote. See, what I initially wanted to say was this:

[] Tone: quiet, final: What I want isn't something that you can just give to me, Kyouko. What I want is for you to recognize that the actions, and the results of the actions taken by your father towards the end of his life were Not. Your. Fault.



I actually ended up scrapping this because I don't really think we can make a strong argument for the whole thing not being Kyouko's fault. I also don't believe we have any need to make such an argument -- it doesn't happen in canon, it doesn't happen in TDS, and it'll probably make a helluva lot more sense to the poor girl when she's ten or fifteen years older.

See... This scrapped vote -- let's refer to it as vote A, and to the thing I actually voted as vote B -- is much stronger. Note that vote B makes no actual attempt to absolve Kyouko of responsibility for what happened. The question was whether we have an actual capacity to support vote A's argument that what happened wasn't Kyouko's fault.

And, well, we do have such a capacity... just, we don't, really, from Kyouko's perspective. See, Kyouko has this thing going on where she's completely sure that if she had just made a really selfish wish instead, things would've been fine. And I think that that's kind of the trouble, here, because if she's focusing on that particular point... well, it's pretty hard to argue against the premise that making a wish that didn't affect her father wouldn't have caused her father to go nuts. Or, you know, if only she just hadn't made a wish at all!

It's hard to argue against, "If I'd done things differently this wouldn't have / probably wouldn't have / might not have happened." I'm not saying we can't. Honestly, I'd really like to, because, well, much stronger endpoint. But... I am saying that we probably shouldn't rely on it too much, here. At least not initially.

There is, however, kind of... one really, really big issue that came up while I was thinking about all of this.

See,

Spoiler: pages of TDS

the thing is, part of this doesn't make sense in pmas.

Here's a little hint, because it's not at all obvious:

"Good morning," you say, nodding at Kenji and Sayaka.

"Good morning, Sabrina!" Sayaka calls, somewhat hoarsely.

"Good morning," Kenji says cautiously, voice similarly hoarse and looking curiously at you with no recognition on his face. You're vaguely puzzled, and then annoyed by that - did Kyuubey wipe his memory?

"Oh! Dad, this is my friend Sabrina," Sayaka says to her father, looking oddly at him.

"I'm pleased to meet you," the older man says formally.

"Pleased to meet you too," you say, moving over to his bed and offering him a hand. He shakes it firmly, though he looks slightly puzzled.

"I don't mean to be rude, but should you be in school?" he asks.

"Oh, um, I just arrived in Mitakihara a few days ago," you say. It's technically true.

"I see," he says. "Well, I won't keep you then," he adds, gesturing at Sayaka.

You nod, and walk over to Sayaka's bed, sitting on the chair beside it. "So how are you?"

"Sleepy," she says tartly. Telepathically, she adds, "Dad... doesn't remember you?"

"Seems not," you reply. You suspect you know why, but... Sayaka doesn't seem to.

Click to shrink...

So, once you've figured it out, the issue proceeds as so.

The abilities which were displayed to Miki Sayaka's parents cannot conceivably be of greater magnitude than the abilities which were displayed to Kyouko's father, given that he knew --

Spoiler: more pages

-- at least enough to know what she got up to, that he first observed her transformed... that based on her trying to convince her father all of this it's unfathomable that she didn't at minimum demonstrate her transformation, and presumably also her illusion abilities given how heavily that's implied by her father's accusation towards her.

Now, Kyubey had clear motive to not wipe Pastor Sakura's memory. Kyubey would have been training Kyouko to not expect this kind of problem the entire time by wiping the memory of everyone else beforehand and just generally preventing, well, people finding Kyouko and asking questions. Kyubey has at minimum previously chosen not to connect telepathic messages.

There's three (sort of four) possibilities, here. One is that in PMAS, the entirety of Kyouko's backstory amounts to enemy action, featuring Kyubey intentionally not wiping Kyouko's Dad's memory of the scene that can be expected to screw over Kyouko -- of Kyouko standing over a bunch of unconscious bodies in front of a !$&% altar in an ornate dress.

Another possibility is that Kyouko asked Kyubey to not wipe her father's memory. That would be, uh, that would be... awfully interesting, with some pretty negative implications. It would mean that Kyouko has dug herself a good bit deeper into her hole in PMAS, since it would basically be a second point where she could've just not done that and things could conceivably have been okay.

The third possibility is that TDS is only quasi-canon to PMAS, and there's some other explanation that we don't know anything about -- it's important to note that the entire "QB wipes memories" thing isn't actually present in canon, though it's present in multiple instances in PMAS. If this is the case, I'd expect @Firnagzen to say something in response to this, because in general we're working on the presumption that TDS is canon to PMAS...

Unless it's actually possibility four, where I've somehow hit on some kind of critical plot point with this, in which case Firn might say nothing and there could be some totally unknown explanation. If that is, by way of miracle from on high, actually the case, then we really desperately want to dig into this whole question.

Anyway, for the most part, assuming that TDS is strictly canon to PMAS, then we should really find out whether Kyouko ever asked QB to not wipe her father's memory -- because if she didn't, then... that's a really, really big deal.

That'd basically mean that Kyubey murdered Kyouko's entire family.

 

[Redshirt Army]

That'd basically mean that Kyubey murdered Kyouko's entire family.

Click to shrink...

Hmm. That's a fascinating point you've brought up. It's a behaviour I could absolutely see the Incubator doing unprompted...

I feel like even if Kyubey did intentionally set Kyouko's family up to die (or, at least, expected a significant increase in Kyouko's stress levels and probability of witching if her father found out), it'll be a hard sell to convince Kyouko that not wiping her fathers memory was enemy action.

Of course, while Kyouko is predisposed to blaming herself, she's also way less attached to the idea of "Kyubey being benevolent" than Mami was. It'll probably be relatively easy to get her to assign QB some of the blame, and really hard to assign QB all of the blame.

 

[Kaizuki]

Hmm. That's a fascinating point you've brought up. It's a behaviour I could absolutely see the Incubator doing unprompted...

I feel like even if Kyubey did intentionally set Kyouko's family up to die (or, at least, expected a significant increase in Kyouko's stress levels and probability of witching if her father found out), it'll be a hard sell to convince Kyouko that not wiping her fathers memory was enemy action.

Of course, while Kyouko is predisposed to blaming herself, she's also way less attached to the idea of "Kyubey being benevolent" than Mami was. It'll probably be relatively easy to get her to assign QB some of the blame, and really hard to assign QB all of the blame.

Click to shrink...

You'd probably have to drop the witchbomb to make it really make sense, which -- I may have forgotten to mention this, but that's the big reason I settled on not voting that way. You would really have to make it clear that Kyubey is, in fact, an enemy in order to get her to see it as enemy action, and that would mean the witchbomb.

The possibility is, however, highly intriguing. Something to put up our sleeve, basically.

 

[Onmur]

NINJA'D EDIT: Yeah, we're thinking the same on those two topics.

On KB not mindwiping Sakura dad, I've always assumed it was KB being KB, but I think once read speculation on... Sakuradad not being mindwiped because he's basically got magic powers due to Kyouko's Wish? I don't really remember, not sure I should be commenting this.



As for Kyouko's trauma, I'm pretty sure it's at the core of her being. (Here I spent minutes looking for a post I'm pretty sure I posted about this topic recently... but can't find :/ ) Found this:

It's a defense mechanism. Kyouko tried to do something good for someone else and got burned, no pun intended, so doing good things for others must be wrong.

Click to shrink...

So we're in agreement that this is waaaaaaay complicated an issue to tackle.

Kyouko believes she Wished Wrong as a way to cope. We can't really get her to change her mind on that whole thing without breaking her psyche. Kyouko needs a psychologist badly.



So... this gives me a random idea. HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO: Let's suppose we Lichbomb Kyouko. Maybe not right now, but suppose we do it.

- Right now:

. Kyuubey passes itself as an empowerment tool. Meguca in general don't blame Kyuubey, because they are teenagers, with ego issues, prone to self-blame and to victim-blaming. That's natural.

. Kyouko, like every meguca fooled so by KB, blames herself for everything. Hell, she even blames Yuma for Contracting.

- Why Lich/Witchbomb Kyouko?

. She would get angry and Kyuubey. Once the Lich/Witchbomb is/are revealed, Kyouko would understand Kyuubey is not a neutral actor, not a catalyst, but that KB is fucking evil and deserving of blame.

. Once Kyuubey becomes blameable in Kyouko's mind, it would be easier (I think) for Kyouko to (rightfully) shift the blame of her family's death over to Kyuubey.

- At that point, perhaps Kyouko won't outright refuse when we tell her it's not her fault. We've told her she deserves to be happy, etc., but she just won't have it. But if she had someone to blame other than herself?



All that said, I'm more confused now about which path of action to take. I'd like to rephrase my current vote a bit so it's not so horrible, at least.

I do believe there is merit in simply asking a big favour back from Kyouko, the bigger the favour, the better, due to all that stuff about teenagers and needing to earn their place.

Spoiler: vote thoughts

[] Sabrina: Be direct and to the point.

[] Ask Kyouko if she really wants to pay you back.
-[] If so, ask her to help Mami. No interrupting:
-[] Explain Mami's state.
--[] Her loneliness, finding secrets KB's been hiding.
--[] How you and your friends helped. Her reconnecting with Kazumi.
--[] Mami is getting better. But she needs more help.
-[] You're asking Kyouko to talk with Mami.
--[] You can't force them to become friends. You know Mami would like to, but she's afraid, she won't push.
--[] Even then, if they could put the hurt feelings to rest? That would mean a lot.

So, part of what miiiiiiight help with this whole, get Kyouko and Mami talking thing, would be, well, neither of them were exactly honest with their feelings, sowe got a cheat. We can literally explain to Kyouko some of the things Mami is afraid to say herself.

I think we can take some leeway. We're not gonna spill Mami's deep secrets, but if we can at least let Kyouko know Mami still would like her to be back? Maybe that would help.

 

[Aranfan]

[] What do I want from you? I want you to stop blaming yourself for your dad going nuts!

 

[Onmur]

TL;DR at the bottom.

I'm going to restate my position exactly once tonight.

Saying "Have anything to do with Mami" to Kyouko nets the response "Mami has Sabrina and whoever else, she's better off without me."

"It would make her really happy," "She misses you," "She has abandonment/loneliness issues," all of these things garner precisely one response:

"Well, she found better friends than me, so it worked out. Best I stay away. Maybe she wants me back, but she doesn't get it -- I wouldn't be good for her."

That is not in any way, shape, or form helpful. Break Kyouko from the mindset that her being around Mami is bad for Mami first. To do that we have to do all the stuff I laid out for the reasons I laid out. It's right there.

Click to shrink...

That's completely valid*, I agree on most what you posted, actually, except on the actual vote.

[X] Tone: quiet, final: What I want isn't something that you can just give to me, Kyouko. What I want is for you to recognize that over the course of the events that lead to your father's final actions, nothing you did was inherently wrong, and the suffering you've experienced, the hate you've pinned on yourself because of those actions: these things were and remain unjust and undeserved.

Click to shrink...

This is telling Kyouko that the fundamental truth at the core of her personality, that her foundation, is wrong. And just that, without doing any work previously in order for her to be able to accept that.

If we do this without prep work**, I expect this to either do nothing, like it did nothing when we told Kyouko she deserves better, or to piss her off, as it happens when you deny someone something they fundamentally believe as truth (due to trauma even, in this case).

* I know my vote has potentially huge problems. I just feel pressed to just ask Kyouko The Big Favour (talk with Mami) right now, because I feel she's kind of desperate at this point. (Maybe we reaaaaally shouldn't have put off this talk yesterday.)


**Maybe we can tell her we're not finished, there's more! \o/ ... Lichbomb her, tell her all of KB's shit (and how it affected Mami, while we're at it). And then, after Kyouko gets the idea that KB is an evil piece of shit and basically the most prolific mass murderer in the universe, theeeeen we can talk with Kyouko about how her family's death was not her fault. Not before, I think.


Basically, I believe both paths of action we're looking at are wrong, that the right path of action would require an actual psychologist, and I feel pressed towards the direct path of action because of Kyouko's emotional state right now.

Spoiler: TL;DR

Path 1: Ask Kyouko a huge favour (talk with Mami).

Why: Kyouko needs to prove to herself she's worth all we've done for her.

Why not: Kyouko might react badly if she feels we're trying to force her to be friends with Mami. She might not make an honest attempt due to feeling Mami's better off without her. Even if she does, things might go wrong.

Path 2: Tell Kyouko her family's death is not her fault.

Why: It's her trauma, the cause of most of her issues. This should happen before Path 1.

Why not: It's her trauma, a foundation of her personality. It's how she copes.

Path 3: Work with Kyouko so she can come to believe her family's death is not her fault.

Why: This should come before Path 2. Possible cheat with revealing the Lich/Witchbomb(s).

Why not: This would require an actual psyochologist and a lot of time in order to be done well. Lich/Witchbomb reveal might cause further issues.

 

[Kaizuki]

Sorry, I think I didn't read what you were saying well enough.

Kyouko believes she Wished Wrong as a way to cope. We can't really get her to change her mind on that whole thing without breaking her psyche.

Click to shrink...

I don't agree with this. We don't need to convince her that she didn't wish wrong, or that she wasn't at fault, or any such thing.

What we're going to do is this:

[X] Tone: quiet, final: What I want isn't something that you can just give to me, Kyouko. What I want is for you to recognize that over the course of the events that lead to your father's final actions, nothing you did was inherently wrong, and the suffering you've experienced, the hate you've pinned on yourself because of those actions: these things were and remain unjust and undeserved.

Click to shrink...

We're going to tell her that nothing she did was actually wrong. And we're going to shoot down her every attempt at arguing otherwise.

Because it's one thing to try to meddle with her whole "Well, if I hadn't wished that way, certainly none of this would have happened" bubble... but it's another to argue that even if that's so, it doesn't make what she did wrong. That is what we are going to do. And I rather expect that she'll find it's awfully hard to argue against us on it, because, well -- if you mean to help another person, and you try your best to do so, how can doing that be wrong?

Isn't that really all that Sayaka even did in canon? Just, shoved it in Kyouko's face and went, it's not wrong to try to help others.

Kyouko has this thing in TDS where she goes, "If it's possible that saving someone from a witch could net them a worse outcome than dying, why should we save anyone from witches?"

It was... the foundation of her whole shtick, really. The start of the "We shouldn't try to help others" line she tracks back to all the bloody time.

And she's right on one thing: it's possible that trying to help someone could end up with them worse off than when they started.

But that doesn't make it wrong to try your best to help someone. How could it? That would make everything we've done for her wrong. That would make everything she's done for Yuma wrong. It would be the end of the moral underpinning of human civilization if it were wrong to try your best to help someone.

I see no way for her to win an argument over that point, no way for her to even keep herself convinced of her side if we're allowed to keep pushing on it. Sayaka dismantled her on the topic without even really arguing the point.

I'm none too eloquent by now, but that's the play, here.

E: Man, ninja'ed by you quoting the post I deleted. T_T

 

[Onmur]

Sorry, I think I didn't read what you were saying well enough.



I don't agree with this. We don't need to convince her that she didn't wish wrong, or that she wasn't at fault, or any such thing.

What we're going to do is this:



We're going to tell her that nothing she did was actually wrong. And we're going to shoot down her every attempt at arguing otherwise.

Because it's one thing to try to meddle with her whole "Well, if I hadn't wished that way, certainly none of this would have happened" bubble... but it's another to argue that even if that's so, it doesn't make what she did wrong. That is what we are going to do. And I rather expect that she'll find it's awfully hard to argue against us on it, because, well -- if you mean to help another person, and you try your best to do so, how can doing that be wrong?

Isn't that really all that Sayaka even did in canon? Just, shoved it in Kyouko's face and went, it's not wrong to try to help others.

Kyouko has this thing in TDS where she goes, "If it's possible that saving someone from a witch could net them a worse outcome than dying, why should we save anyone from witches?"

It was... the foundation of her whole shtick, really. The start of the "We shouldn't try to help others" line she tracks back to all the bloody time.

And she's right on one thing: it's possible that trying to help someone could end up with them worse off than when they started.

But that doesn't make it wrong to try your best to help someone. How could it? That would make everything we've done for her wrong. That would make everything she's done for Yuma wrong. It would be the end of the moral underpinning of human civilization if it were wrong to try your best to help someone.

I see no way for her to win an argument over that point, no way for her to even keep herself convinced of her side if we're allowed to keep pushing on it. Sayaka dismantled her on the topic without even really arguing the point.

I'm none too eloquent by now, but that's the play, here.

E: Man, ninja'ed by you quoting the post I deleted. T_T

Click to shrink...

This is really... complicated?

It's been a while since I've watched PMMM, but I think I can say, in canon, Kyouko sees herself in Sayaka. It hits her really hard that Sayaka can keep trying where Kyouko gave up, and keep going despite all the hardships.

I think this is why we're trying the 'throw Sayaka at the problem' approach: We can't do this ourselves.

We're not the underdog, we're not struggling just to pull ahead while keeping to our convictions. We're powerful, we got infinite magic, we got Mami, and are friends with a time stopper, and can turn friends into enemies!

EDIT: LOL. I meant enemies into friends!

We're not nobody, so I have to concede, at least, it's not the same if we tell Kyouko she's wrong, than if any randomguca were to do so, but we don't have that... prime position to judge Kyouko that canon Sayaka had, you know?

I guess I just don't expect an argument to even happen, if we try. Kyouko can block us, walk away, if we piss her off too much, and oh boy, telling someone that what they earnestly believe is wrong... that's a way to piss them off.

 

[Corundum]

<snip>
So, once you've figured it out, the issue proceeds as so.

<snip>

Anyway, for the most part, assuming that TDS is strictly canon to PMAS, then we should really find out whether Kyouko ever asked QB to not wipe her father's memory -- because if she didn't, then... that's a really, really big deal.

That'd basically mean that Kyubey murdered Kyouko's entire family.

Click to shrink...

I'd thought it was established (In Quest) that Kyuubey doesn't wipe the "Friends or Family" of a magical girl who learn the truth. I think it comes up when we learned about Hitomi's Mom being a former friend of a magical girl. I'd have to look for the quote though.

Kyouko was already a magical girl when her father learned, so her father doesn't get wiped. Sayaka was not, so her parent's do.

TDS doesn't show us Kyouko asking Kyuubey to mindwipe her father, and the Little White Rat gets a lot of mileage out of "You Never Asked."

We also don't know that mindwipe exemptions aren't permanent.

 

[Onmur]

Kyouko was already a magical girl when her father learned, so her father doesn't get wiped. Sayaka was not, so her parent's do.

Click to shrink...

*Flips keyboard*

You know, I hadn't even remembered that little detail.

Damned KB.

I need to go to sleep. >_>

EDIT: Man, it's been a while since I argued anything with anyone, I forgot how fun it can be. Someone should point out all the problems with asking Kyouko to have a talk with Mami, just so I can wake up to food for thought.

 

[Kaizuki]

I'd thought it was established

Click to shrink...

Highly informative if true.

This is really... complicated?

It's been a while since I've watched PMMM, but I think I can say, in canon, Kyouko sees herself in Sayaka. It hits her really hard that Sayaka can keep trying where Kyouko gave up, and keep going despite all the hardships.

I think this is why we're trying the 'throw Sayaka at the problem' approach: We can't do this ourselves.

We're not the underdog, we're not struggling just to pull ahead while keeping to our convictions. We're powerful, we got infinite magic, we got Mami, and are friends with a time stopper, and can turn friends into enemies!

We're not nobody, so I have to concede, at least, it's not the same if we tell Kyouko she's wrong, than if any randomguca were to do so, but we don't have that... prime position to judge Kyouko that canon Sayaka had, you know?

I guess I just don't expect an argument to even happen, if we try. Kyouko can block us, walk away, if we piss her off too much, and oh boy, telling someone that what they earnestly believe is wrong... that's a way to piss them off.

Click to shrink...

If you don't believe we can accomplish this, then I think you had better consider voting to turn around and leave.

No, seriously. I said this already and supported it with several paragraphs of argument and evidence: there is nothing more we can do for Kyouko without getting into her psychological issues.

There's no conceivable large favor we can ask of Kyouko in the present that doesn't involve Mami or Walpurgisnacht. There's no large favor we can ask that involves Mami that won't go horribly wrong. There's no large favor we can ask that involves Walpurgisnacht unless we want to start pressuring Kyouko to help fight it, and that idea belongs in the landfill.



But... do you know something, Onmur?



One thing I've noticed repeatedly since I first got into this thread is this: there's kind of a chronic no-can-do attitude from certain fronts in here regarding all sorts of things. Things like... getting Oriko to stop being such an idiot. Getting Mami to stop being so sad. Getting Kyouko to stop thinking it's wrong to try to help people.



For Oriko, it was "There's nothing we can do here. We need to just let Kirika do it."



For Mami, it was "There's nothing we can do here. She just needs time."



For Kyouko, it seems to be "There's nothing we can do here. We need to just let Sayaka do it."



I'd just like to point out to all the posters in my head -- I'm already two for three on these girls. Have some faith and give me a chance. I'm here to help these people, so let me try!



Sayaka had some advantages that we don't, it's true. We've got a helluva lot more things that she didn't, I think -- among them, having the slightest idea about the details of Kyouko's past, actually being able to talk with her, her feeling like she owes us, Yuma existing, did I mention the part where she's already willing to listen to us even when we say stuff that sounds really dumb to her?

Let's be honest with her. Let's actually try to help. Let's make it clear that we think she deserves better. Let's do anything except tell ourselves that we can't do this, because not only is that historically just totally false, it's horribly off-theme.

Seriously guys. I'm gonna save everybody, just you watch.

I say again (with a minor modification):

[X] Tone: quiet, final: What I want is for you to recognize that over the course of the events that lead to your father's final actions, nothing you did was inherently wrong, and the suffering you've experienced, the hate you've pinned on yourself because of those actions: these things were and remain unjust and undeserved.

 

[Onmur]

If you don't believe we can accomplish this, then I think you had better consider voting to turn around and leave.

Click to shrink...

Turning around and leaving is what I can see Kyouko doing if we just tell her she's wrong. (While telling us to fuck off ).

I believe we can do this, but that this is not the way. There's at least a big step that should go first, in order for Kyouko to be able to agree at all.

You want to tell her she's not guilty? OK, but don't just do that. Telling people they are wrong doesn't change the way they think, doesn't engage them into arguments, and we both know this is huge.

Like, I'd consider "[] Lichbomb Kyouko, then tell her it's all KB's fault, not hers", over "[] Tell Kyouko it's not her fault."

Otherwise, what reason are we giving Kyouko to be able to actually consider our words, to not block us off and walk away?

Let me butcher up a protovote in that vein, as a showpiece:

[] Tell Kyouko there is something you want from her.
[] But first, you're not done.
-[] No interruptions: Give Lichbomb warnings, explain how it affected Mami. Tell Kyouko you believe she (and Yuma but ehhh) can cope, but it's her call.
-[] Lichbomb Kyouko.
-[] Explain KB, in all it's evil little mass murdering shitness.
-[] Pin the blame over Sakura's family's death on KB.
-[] It's not Kyouko's fault.
[] About that favour? Mami needs help. For reasons already mentioned...
-[] ...

In this protovote idea, which is really rushed and simplified, and super hopeful in thinking we could get all this done within the afternoon... telling Kyouko it's not her fault would be at least the fifth step (sixth? seventh?), not the start.

 

[Corundum]

Well then.

[X] Kaizuki

 

[Onmur]

Reached that point of sleepiness where weird ideas pop up.

[Q] Kyouko Sakura. Are you giving me, Sabrina, leeway to meddle further into your life?
-[Q] GRIN.
-[Q] So you know, we could get you back into school, and Yuma too! Hackerguca can HALP.
-[Q] And then we need to get you two permanent housing, hell, let's get you a couple more students and you can pay rent. By yourself. Wow.
-[Q] ...
-[Q] And we totally must organize a playdate for Yuma and Nagisa.
-[Q] ...
-[Q] And Yuma needs toys, and cute dresses -nice dress, by the way, Yuma- and all sorts of... stuff. Do you want stuff, Yuma?
-[Q] ...
-[Q] And on your first date with Sayaka-

WHAT?

-[Q] Ignore that part.
-[Q] Now, onto which school you're gonna attend...

Now time to sleep.

 

[Torgamous]

I think that the moment the words "We're there for her now" exit our mouth regarding Mami, I think Kyouko starts going, "tswell, Sabrina sure is a better friend than me. Mami may think she wants me around but she's better off without me."

Click to shrink...

This can be resolved by being even more direct. "You leaving Mami left a gaping wound in her psyche that I've only been able to anesthetize" is harder to refute that way.

 

[AuraTwilight]

[x] Kaizuki

 

[Kaizuki]

Maybe more work on vote tomorrow. See if I think I can safely extend it.

Lichbomb is a no ATM.