You SKWs are all the same. Bunch of bloody self-righteous pricks who do you think you are trying to social kyouko eh eh eh??? -- unknown

i blame norad
 
And you too!

Merry Christmas to those who would, Happy Holidays if that is better!

Hugs for everyone that intersects a Hug probability on their timelike curves!
 
On the topic of the metabomb deserving more bulk... Honestly, I will state again -- I would have preferred to leave this vote as

[] Tone: steady, firm. Look Kyouko in the eyes. You came out here to help her because you wanted to since she deserved it, not to win her favor or somesuch. Steady, soft: her owing you is something you don't want. You want Kyouko to do things for Kyouko, not for Sabrina, because Kyouko really needs that.
-[] Cut quickly afterward

With the expectation of probably writing a metabomb the next vote.

I bowed to pressure regarding vote length. Maybe I shouldn't, do you think?

I think If you feel it would be better to shorten the vote and limit what included and all that's convincing you otherwise is pressure, you should follow your gut. Personally, I'm all in favor of putting the metabomb on hold until this is at least partially resolved.

I barely remember my own plan at all anymore and I'm honestly not sure If we're doing this for the same reasons or not but when it comes to Kyouko, I think the most important thing is listening to her.

If your point is that you don't want Kyouko to make sacrifices for our sake, I'd recommend including that explicitly and in so many words.

Anyways... It's not my original plan, and I don't have a good handle on my old intentions, but I feel I should at least put something up,

[X] You get it, you really do, but you'll listen if she wants to talk.

[X] For your own part, part of it is that you don't want her making sacrifices for your sake. You've seen where that goes.

-[X] You don't know if it would help, but if misery shared is misery lessened then you can tell her she's not alone in what's happened to her, nor in her feelings about it.
--[X] She's not the only friend you have to lose her home and have her friends get her something back, nor to feel herself at fault for what she's lost, nor to worry about having damned herself in the eyes of her friends.
--[X]They aren't identical, she's not alone in feeling the way she does about things.


I'm sorry that you're feeling some burnout, here, because out of everyone being really prolific in here atm it is you that I respect the most, and I'm really hoping you'll stick around for the next few votes to make the kinds of arguments you're talking about to Kyouko. And if you think my vote isn't doing a good enough job of not autopiloting past just the baseline, I'd really like to hear that because yeah, as you imply, having this be our whole argument -- it wouldn't be safe. Oh don't get me wrong, it'd be meaningful -- "I know what happened and I still believe you deserve good things"? Meaningful, very meaningful... But not safe, no, not alone.

When it comes to burnout working together...

I'll be honest, as much as I enjoy the way the forum lends itself to approaching ideas in depth, I miss being able to just chat about odds and ends. Both for the use in organizing my thoughts, the understanding of other people and their positions it gave, and the sense of cooperation. I guess I'm the sort who needs a shared purpose in order to make and maintain friendships.
 
[X] Tone: steady, firm. Look Kyouko in the eyes. You came out here to help her because you wanted to since she deserved it, not to win her favor or somesuch.

Seems good enough.

I feel nervous because our argument sounds a little bit like: "we just gave you a large piece of expensive real estate because you deserve it for being awesome."

and that's right up there with "Dear Sir, I Am A Prince Of Nigeria And I Need Your Help With A Financial Issue" on the list of things you run screaming from because someone thinks you're a sucker.

But I guess it doesn't sound too much like that, and we've got some more-honest-sounding stuff surrounding it, so hopefully it'll fly.

[X] Kaizuki
 
[Q] Merry Christmas, Kyouko and Yuma!
-[Q] Pull out things from hammerspace as gifts.

Magically, the random items Sabrina pulls out and shoves into Kyouko's and Yuma's hands are wrapped up as presents.

Sabrina's eyes widen, gears start spinning in her mind, trying to find out where the wrapping paper came from...

Yuma tears open her present to find... an AR-15 rifle. Which Kyouko immediately takes away like a responsible, non-brain-damaged human being.

"WHAT THE HELL SABRINA!" the redhead shouts in the taller girl's face, her own smaller, thin, rectangular present in risk of flying off her angrily waving hand.

Said brain-damaged girl leans away with a pacifying smile, and stops thinking too much about wrapping paper to point at Kyouko's hand. "Aren't you going to open that?"

Kyouko scoffs, looking at the present in her hand. "What, a rifle for Yuma and some C4 for me? What the fuck?"

"Maybe it's a puppy!" chimes Yuma, suddenly excited.

Red eyes gleam. Slowly, Kyouko Sakura comes to behold once more the thin little boxy rectangular present held in her hand. The very much not puppy shaped present.

"Is it a puppy?"

"We won't know until it's unwrapped..."

"It could be anything..."

"I hope it's a puppy!"

"Puuuuu~ppy!" Kyouko and Yuma start cheering together as Kyuoko's hands quickly tear away the wrapping. "Puuuuu~ppy! Puuu~ppy! Puuuu-"

The last scrap of paper falls away to reveal...

"A book?" Kyuoko grimaces, before passing it on to Yuma, "Merry Christmas, Yuma."

"Blegh," Yuma casually flips the book aside and off the building.

Sabrina's eyes trail after the falling book. "Maybe the Christmas wrapping paper was inside me all along...? OH SHIT!"

She jumps off the building after Homura's Book of Witches.

Kyouko and Yuma just watch as Sabrina disappears over the ledge.

"Maybe I should go check up on Mami," muses Kyouko, "just to see that she hasn't been infected with... this," she concludes, waving a lazy hand to encompass the rifle, and the whole situation. "... Not that I care, of anything, you know?"

Yuma sniffs. "Yuma wanted a puppy."
 
Nova Prospekt pt. 9
Ah, Kyouko. Too proud to accept help without making a fuss. Too perceptive for you to lie to, too mistrustful to simply accept it, too dogged for you to brush it off.

Heh. Dogged.

Really, 'cat-like' works for Kyouko.

Not that you can blame her for any of it in the slightest, least of all the suspicion. Living on the streets, betrayed by everything, everyone she held dear... And yet she still had it in her to take in a child with no one to turn to. Yuma, still burrowed into Kyouko's side.

You lean back, propping yourself up with both elbows against the antenna spar and tilting your head back to look up at Kyouko. She's looking down at you, a deliberately disinterested look in her dusky crimson eyes. You grin, and hold her gaze, arching one eyebrow.

"Yeah, it's your father's church," you say. "I came out here to help because I wanted to. Because you deserve it. Not to win your favour or anything, you know? I don't..."

"Y' don't need it?" Kyouko says, snorting and rolling her eyes. "Gee, thanks."

"Nah," you say, smile still in place. "Nothing like that. I don't want you to owe me. I want... well, I want you to do things for yourself, not for me. I... look, you know what I do want? I want you to be happy for yourself. I-"

"Tall fucking order, that," Kyouko grouses, looking away.

You frown slightly, still kneading the Grief thoughtfully in your hands as you consider her. She's not... uncomfortable, despite not meeting your eyes any more. There's no tension in her body, no discomfort in her posture or the way she lets Yuma tuck herself into a hug. She's just... reluctant, but she's not angry with you or anything.

Huh.

"You deserve it, you know?" you say quietly. "It's not about you owing it to me, or to anyone else. It's about..." You trail off, chuckling quietly. "I'd say it's about the world owing you better. And since the world ain't coughing up its dues, I might as well."

"Bullshit," Kyouko says. "World doesn't owe me anything."

"I say it does," you say. "Seriously, Kyouko. I don't... want anything in return. It's freely offered, from one friend to another."

"I don't..." Kyouko sighs, scrubbing her hand over her face. A worried-looking Yuma has taken possession of her other hand, hugging closer to her. "We're magical girls. We don't help each other."

"Big sis..." Yuma says.

"Yeah, my turn to call bullshit," you say, shaking your head. "The food chain thing doesn't hold much water, and you know it."

You try to catch Kyouko's eye so you can look meaningfully at Yuma, but Kyouko isn't looking at you. She's staring out towards the river instead.

"I dunno what I've done for you to get all... up on my case," Kyouko says quietly. "I know she didn't put you up to this."

And that...

That's as close to a cue as you'll get, you suppose.

"Give me a moment," you say, and switch to telepathy. "Hey, Mami?"

"Mrrh," Kyouko grunts. She's still not looking at you, staring out into the distance. Brooding, almost, except that Yuma's cuddled up into her side.

"Sabrina? I- how are you?" Mami responds immediately.

"I'm doing well," you say, trying to inject into your mental voice as much as you can of your affection for her. "How are you?"

"I'm... doing alright," Mami says. "I keep reminding myself, and it- it helps."

"I'm glad," you say. "I care about you, Mami. Very, very much."

There's a catch in Mami's voice when she responds. "I- I know. And you- you're everything."

"Thank you," you murmur quietly. "I... that said, Mami, I'm sorry to drop off again so soon, but... I need to use a privacy sphere for a bit, if that's OK? It won't be too long, but I need to make sure I'm not being overheard."

"Alright," Mami says. "I'll see you at lunch?"

"You will," you say firmly. "And I'll talk to you more before that."

"Alright," Mami says again. "I... talk to you soon, Sabrina."

"Yeah," you agree. "Talk to you soon!"

You cut the connection and stand, hopping up onto Kyouko's spar. She gives you a suspicious look, one arm wrapped around Yuma.

"Right, sorry," you say, holding up the blob of magic-soaked Grief. "Do you mind if I do something? I want to make sure we aren't overheard for this next bit. It's, uh... gonna feel pretty Witchy."

Kyouko eyes you sidelong, and sighs. "Sure. Do whatever."

"OK, then..." you say, and focus for a second. You know this particular bit of magic intimately well by now, and it takes form without fuss, enchanted Grief melding into the familiar pattern in an instant. The world blurs beyond arm's reach as the privacy field springs into existence. Just to be sure, you sweep a sandstorm of Grief through the field, checking for any invisible interlopers.

Kyouko makes a face, shuffling on the antenna spar as you set the device down between you.

"It's not a physical blockage," you add. "You can walk out any time you want, and I'm not... trapping you here or anything."

"Mmmhm," Kyouko grumbles, waving an arm. "Get on with it."

"Yeah, so..." you say slowly, considering. "Bit of a hairy topic, this. I've been telling my close friends about it, and... look, this is something you unquestionably deserve to know."

Kyouko makes a faintly irritated noise and a 'hurry up' gesture.

"Well. I know things that I shouldn't," you say. "I guess you could say it's a kind of magic, but I don't know for sure why or how I know what I do - and mainly, that sums up to... rough backgrounds of a lot of people."

Kyouko doesn't react, other than her jaw tightening a bit.

You hope she's not gearing up to gut you.

"Including you," you add, folding your hands on your lap and trying not to fidget. "Stating the obvious, but... yeah. I more or less know what led to the Sakura church being abandoned, and... well. You deserve good things."

"Fucking hell," Kyouko mutters. "I... fine. What do you want? You want to help me? You have. What do you want from me?"

[] How do you respond to Kyouko?
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)


=====​

Happy holidays to everyone. I hope you're having a good time!

I'm afraid this isn't a Christmas special update or anything, but I'll be on a plane tomorrow, so, well. That said, I'm aiming for another update this weekend!
 
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It's a Christmas miracle!

Anyway, we've said our bit, and I'm really glad the metabomb was as painless as it was, but Kyouko still wants to repay us.

In the end, it comes down to her, personally, feeling safer if she knows that Sabrina doesn't have a favour hanging over her to force her to do something she really doesn't want to do.

So yeah, I think for Kyouko's own peace of mind we really should just burn the favor on something relatively innocuous. Having those sorts of obligations hanging around is gonna mess things up when we want her to choose things of her own initiative.

Some basic ideas for burning the favor:
• Asking for introductions to any other magical girls in and around Kasamino.
• Asking Kyouko to look out for Sayaka.
• Asking Kyouko to consider a meeting with Mami at some point.
• Asking Kyouko to teach Sabrina some melee skills.
 
Draft vote.

[X] Check Kyouko's gem / offer cleanse if appropriate.
[X] She doesn't get it, does she?
-[X] Her happiness is an end goal for you.
--[X] That's how humans work. We're social creatures, and when the people we care about are in bad places, it makes us unhappy. We can't just stop caring about someone.
---[X] And for you, this is much stronger. You woke up uncontracted in an alley with no memory of yourself and the backstories of roughly a dozen living girls in your head, all of whom were or would be in bad situations. Then you met them. You are literally in this for them -- for her.
[X] If she wants to tell you that it'd make her happy for you to ask her to do something for you, then... You guess you'd have to accept that.
 
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@Kaizuki , I appreciate what you're doing, and spelling out our terminal values is useful, but the vote can't end there. Sabrina's already made it really clear that she considers Kyouko's debt nonexistent, but Kyouko still feels like she owes us.

Which makes sense - I really, really don't think we can get Kyouko to shake her feelings over a single conversation. If we leave things as-is, Kyouko's just gonna be stressing out waiting for the shoe to drop, even if she intellectually knows that Sabrina isn't ever gonna demand anything.

In the worst case scenario, she feels obligated to fight Walpurgis to clear the debt, which is really not the mindset we want her to have at that point.

So yeah. Let Kyouko do something for us.
 
@Kaizuki , I appreciate what you're doing, and spelling out our terminal values is useful, but the vote can't end there. Sabrina's already made it really clear that she considers Kyouko's debt nonexistent, but Kyouko still feels like she owes us.

Which makes sense - I really, really don't think we can get Kyouko to shake her feelings over a single conversation. If we leave things as-is, Kyouko's just gonna be stressing out waiting for the shoe to drop, even if she intellectually knows that Sabrina isn't ever gonna demand anything.

In the worst case scenario, she feels obligated to fight Walpurgis to clear the debt, which is really not the mindset we want her to have at that point.

So yeah. Let Kyouko do something for us.

Was editing. See new version.
 
[] "Well I guess that was it really, I wanted to help you, if I've helped you, then mission accomplished.
-[] "I mean... I'd also like to be your friend. Keep hanging out with you, I enjoy your company! Honestly!"
 
You know, it occurs to me that absent the knowledge of Mami's abandonment/loneliness issues, Kyouko may well have "rationally" concluded that the fight she and Mami got into when Kyouko left in TDS could only have been spurred on either by some... not particularly nice motives. Like, absent the loneliness issue, Mami would've had to have either been doing it because she didn't want Kyouko going around not being "righteous" or because she didn't want to let Kyouko make her own choices about the risks and hardships she'd be going through. Neither is exactly rose-tinted from the perspective of a teenager with all of Kyouko's issues.
 
[] Explain your terminal values. Specifically: You want everyone to live happily ever after. You are here to help.
-[] Go into as much detail as appropriate, but stop sorts of Big Secrets like who exactly you think made you.
[] If Kyouko still needs something she can do to help herself feel like there's no debt:
-[] ...
 
"Fucking hell," Kyouko mutters. "I... fine. What do you want? You want to help me? You have. What do you want from me?"
[Q] Headpat Kyouko.

"..."

*SMUUUUUUG*

Some basic ideas for burning the favor:
• Asking for introductions to any other magical girls in and around Kasamino.
• Asking Kyouko to look out for Sayaka.
• Asking Kyouko to consider a meeting with Mami at some point.
• Asking Kyouko to teach Sabrina some melee skills.
You know, with this:
"Fucking hell," Kyouko mutters. "I... fine. What do you want? You want to help me? You have. What do you want from me?"
I think it's the time to actually be fully honest. For real.

Like, for reaaaaaaaal. No screwing around.

If there was any good advice Homumom ever gave us, was to be honest with Kyouko.

Without thinking too much, and with fear something like this might backfire horribly, this would be a HONEST DRAFT :p :

[ ] She wants to know all your hopes and wishes regarding her? Fine, but she doesn't get to interrupt. Explain everything:
-[ ] Kyouko deserves friends, a home, happiness. Her life's shit was not her fault. Put the blame where it belongs: Kyuubey.
-[ ] You can't do anything about her family, but her not having a home? Unfair. Same for Yuma.
-[ ] If there's anything you'll ask of Kyouko now?
--[ ] Her fight with Mami was a tragic pile of pride and misplaced guilt. You hope they can give each other a chance to make things up some day.
--[ ] You want her to help Sayaka not get herself killed.
--[ ] You want her to take care of Yuma, and the two of them to get an actual home. You can help with that, you'll insist to help. Yuma can't live wandering the streets and breaking into hotels, and neither should Kyouko.


You know, it occurs to me that absent the knowledge of Mami's abandonment/loneliness issues, Kyouko may well have "rationally" concluded that the fight she and Mami got into when Kyouko left in TDS could only have been spurred on either by some... not particularly nice motives. Like, absent the loneliness issue, Mami would've had to have either been doing it because she didn't want Kyouko going around not being "righteous" or because she didn't want to let Kyouko make her own choices about the risks and hardships she'd be going through. Neither is exactly rose-tinted from the perspective of a teenager with all of Kyouko's issues.
I've only read TDS twice, so refresh my memory if I'm wrong... wasn't that fight basically provoked by Kyouko, purposefully?

Since she thinks she ruins everything, she went and told Mami that they should start familiar farming so Mami would push her away? (And then Mami couldn't get herself to kill Kyouko when they fought -which, really, is fine! Exaggerating much, Mami?- so she lost and Kyouko got away).
 
I have come to a decision. Reyvateils (from the Ar tonelico games) are meguca. Here's my reasoning:
  1. All Reyvateils are female
  2. Reyvateils were created to better make use of the magical powers inherent to emotion
  3. The souls of Reyvateils are stored in a location separate from their bodies
Now, admittedly, the Soul Gem equivalent for them is one of four massive structures that they share with thousands of other Reyvateils, and Reyvateils don't suffer from Witchouts.

Or do they?

In the second game, there are what are known as IPD Outbreaks, which can affect any Reyvateil whose soul is stored on Infel Phira. These shouldn't happen (Urobutcher didn't write the plot), but a combination of damage sustained to Infel Phira 400 years before the game, combined with the negative emotions caused by the failure to create Metafalica at that time, cause this phenomenon. As a result, Reyvateils will sometimes have their reason consumed by negative emotion, leading them to lash out at everything and everyone around them, making them a potentially lethal threat that must be fought in order to protect the populace. This reads pretty much exactly like a Witchout to me.

Luckily, there is a cure, Dive Therapy. It works a differently when treating IPDs as apposed to the typical practice, but I digress. The basic process involves the Therapist Diving into the Cosmosphere (analogous to a Barrier, being a metaphor-laden representation of the Reyavateil's psyche) of the patient, blocking off the portion that is causing the Outbreak, and then taking actions to help the patient overcome whatever issues led to the Outbreak in the first place.

We are doing something similar with Aurora. After fighting her to keep her from hurting anyone, we have removed the original problem (Grief) from the equation, and are now adding positive emotion to hopefully let her live a normal life again.
 
No. Kyouko made to leave. Mami... Mami grabbed her arm, and told her she wouldn't let her go. A bit more complicated but I won't have the book to quote for a few hours ATM.

It's actually very sad. Kyouko ends up saying something to the effect of "if you won't aim at me I don't even have to dodge," but she completely fails to understand why Mami won't shoot her.
 
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