Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
So far as I remember the bracelets are basically just a slightly refined version of the privacy field. No real difference between them apart from the telepathy clause.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- 👁👄👁
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
Aaaaggg I can't handle more arting ideas
- Location
- Illinois
[X] Tell Kyouko that it's going to feel witchy and look creepy, but you're going to need another layer of privacy to reply to that.
-[X] Reply to any comments: it's not paranoia if they're actually out to get you.
-[X] Moderate-large privacy sphere. (We want Yuma in this conversation if we can get her in it. She will be a big help.)
[X] Tone: steady, firm. Look Kyouko in the eyes. You came out here to help her because you wanted to since she deserved it, not to win her favor or somesuch. Steady, soft: her owing you isn't something you want. You want Kyouko to do things for Kyouko, not for Sabrina, because Kyouko really needs that.
-[X] In response to any "You don't know XYZ" or "I don't deserve XYZ": Tone: steady, smidgeon of embarrassment: you've been going around admitting this to everyone -- you know rough backstories for a lot of people, yourself excluded. Steady, firm: You know about the Sakura Church. Kyouko absolutely deserves everything you're doing for her and more.
-[X] Otherwise, cut.
Or...? Privacy equipment = ?...
-[X] Reply to any comments: it's not paranoia if they're actually out to get you.
-[X] Moderate-large privacy sphere. (We want Yuma in this conversation if we can get her in it. She will be a big help.)
[X] Tone: steady, firm. Look Kyouko in the eyes. You came out here to help her because you wanted to since she deserved it, not to win her favor or somesuch. Steady, soft: her owing you isn't something you want. You want Kyouko to do things for Kyouko, not for Sabrina, because Kyouko really needs that.
-[X] In response to any "You don't know XYZ" or "I don't deserve XYZ": Tone: steady, smidgeon of embarrassment: you've been going around admitting this to everyone -- you know rough backstories for a lot of people, yourself excluded. Steady, firm: You know about the Sakura Church. Kyouko absolutely deserves everything you're doing for her and more.
-[X] Otherwise, cut.
Or...? Privacy equipment = ?...
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Non-seriously, you know, we could pass off our weird memory and knowledge as some sort of divine gift/sacrifice.
We were denied memories of our past, so we could know yours, instead!
That, coupled with that we live our life by helping save the lives of others...
I wonder if we would need to reveal the whole Madokami thing before we were branded meguca Jesus.
- Location
- Illinois
I'd rather not pass them off at all.
Wishes have, to her knowledge, interfered with Kyouko's life exactly twice.
The first time, she lost everything, even though she was well-meaning.
The second time, a little girl...
It's honestly for the best we make no link between [our existence] and [anything metaphysical], here.
Okay, no, enough. Look: the bracelets are noticeably less creepy than the privacy field.
Somebody figure out whether it's okay to use them, or not, because they're pretty heavily preferable on an immediate social level.
Wishes have, to her knowledge, interfered with Kyouko's life exactly twice.
The first time, she lost everything, even though she was well-meaning.
The second time, a little girl...
It's honestly for the best we make no link between [our existence] and [anything metaphysical], here.
Okay, no, enough. Look: the bracelets are noticeably less creepy than the privacy field.
Somebody figure out whether it's okay to use them, or not, because they're pretty heavily preferable on an immediate social level.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
We don't know how secure the bracelets are. If they work as they're supposed to - and just the fact that we could make them is strong but not conclusive evidence that this is the case - then they should be mostly secure.
But... there are loopholes. The privacy sphere is a simple, absolute, "no info gets out" effect. The bracelets only stop a few specific ways of overhearing us that we thought of at the time - and the fact that telepathy still works while they're active raises a ton of questions.
Even if the incubators can't decrypt the exact message directly, are they able to piecing together some of the context of the conversation just be seeing who was talking at a given time? Can they determine word lengths, if not exact words?
We never started using the privacy bracelets because there's no real way to know how effective they are, since QB is unlikely to spill the beans, and so we decided that a blanket "no info out period" effect was safer.
But... there are loopholes. The privacy sphere is a simple, absolute, "no info gets out" effect. The bracelets only stop a few specific ways of overhearing us that we thought of at the time - and the fact that telepathy still works while they're active raises a ton of questions.
Even if the incubators can't decrypt the exact message directly, are they able to piecing together some of the context of the conversation just be seeing who was talking at a given time? Can they determine word lengths, if not exact words?
We never started using the privacy bracelets because there's no real way to know how effective they are, since QB is unlikely to spill the beans, and so we decided that a blanket "no info out period" effect was safer.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
The darnest thing is that we were always the first one to put on the bracelet, so we never observed their full effects.
The best I can find about the Privacy Bracelets' worth are quotes about Sabrina thinking -Firn saying or Sabrina thinking?- that they work, like so:
And as far as Privacy Bracelet vs. Privacy Field goes, I recall that from inside the field, the outside can be seen, but sliiiiightly blurry?
The quote I found doesn't mention any blurriness, though, so my memory might be failing me:
If the Privacy Field is completely transparent from the inside (and I'm totally misremembering any blurring effects), then it shouldn't be, say, claustrophobic or anything like that. The only problem would be the Witchiness.
Aaaaaaaand btw, found this:
No, not the DVD thing, we never got back to anyone about whether it would be OK for Hitomi to accompany Sayaka to her sparring sessions, I think. I think. I think. It's been so long.
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The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Still digesting everything through and thinking up my own plans and arguments but...
My concern is that we won't have the grief enchanted in time to let the conversation flow properly. Seeing as we only just started making it, and grief enchantment tends to take roughly as much time as trancing (or a little longer.)
Currently weighing whether its possible to talk about the church without bringing in our metaknowledge.
I'll point out that we don't have to stick with the two options we've used before. It's nitpicking, but the privacy field isn't exactly better in hiding the "who's talking to who" vein. And it too gives hints at the "about what," given that it's a big black ball of obfuscation, but it's very obviously a big black ball of obfuscation usually used before we want to talk about certain topics.
Something that makes it so that people outside the effect see something both valid and completely different than those within might also be worth considering, and also less conspicuous than the sphere of darkness. (For example, us suddenly getting into a fight with Kyouko. Or instead talking to her about whether Hitomi can come over with Sayaka.)
My concern is that we won't have the grief enchanted in time to let the conversation flow properly. Seeing as we only just started making it, and grief enchantment tends to take roughly as much time as trancing (or a little longer.)
Currently weighing whether its possible to talk about the church without bringing in our metaknowledge.
I'll point out that we don't have to stick with the two options we've used before. It's nitpicking, but the privacy field isn't exactly better in hiding the "who's talking to who" vein. And it too gives hints at the "about what," given that it's a big black ball of obfuscation, but it's very obviously a big black ball of obfuscation usually used before we want to talk about certain topics.
Something that makes it so that people outside the effect see something both valid and completely different than those within might also be worth considering, and also less conspicuous than the sphere of darkness. (For example, us suddenly getting into a fight with Kyouko. Or instead talking to her about whether Hitomi can come over with Sayaka.)
You know... Mami's left hand in that picture isn't badly placed for Sabrina to be sitting to her left and holding it... If they were snuggled close together.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
I don't know if it's a dealbreaker, but using the bracelets would probably still let Kyubey see our facial expressions and body language. It wouldn't tell him for sure what we're talking about, but I think it would give him a lot more data to narrow it down with.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
At any rate, I think I could agree with the message being "you deserve this". Not sure how it would fly, or how to deliver it.
Thought:
man woman is dying of thirst in the desert, then someone comes along and offers them a glass of water, but since they're SAVING HER LIFE, this means SHE OWES THEM HER LIFE. This is obviously immoral and unfair.
Now, for Kyouko, what we did was HUGE. But from our side, we just put in a word and that caused someone else to throw a bitchfest at some people and that was it. Nobody did a huge labor of work in order to save the church. There was a lot of serendipity involved.
BTW, we should compliment Yuma on her new dress at some point.
We could paint ourselves as someone who sees things wrong and is out to fix them, but would that sway Kyouko?
I mean...
It's a defense mechanism. Kyouko tried to do something good for someone else and got burned, no pun intended, so doing good things for others must be wrong. Kyouko can't accept our favour as it is without putting her past decisions/trauma/defense mechanism into question. Which of course she doesn't want to.
There is this bigfuckhuge problem in the way of getting Kyouko to accept our help and just help. This is what throwing Sayaka at the problem is supposed to help with, but I don't think we've thrown enough Sayaka at the problem yet.
[Q] Kyouko needs more Sayaka in her life.
-[Q] Ask Kyouko to take Sayaka out... on a training trip from hell!
I mean...
Kyouko waaaaants to repay us, this favour we did is a burden on her shoulders.
It's a defense mechanism. Kyouko tried to do something good for someone else and got burned, no pun intended, so doing good things for others must be wrong. Kyouko can't accept our favour as it is without putting her past decisions/trauma/defense mechanism into question. Which of course she doesn't want to.
There is this bigfuckhuge problem in the way of getting Kyouko to accept our help and just help. This is what throwing Sayaka at the problem is supposed to help with, but I don't think we've thrown enough Sayaka at the problem yet.
[Q] Kyouko needs more Sayaka in her life.
-[Q] Ask Kyouko to take Sayaka out... on a training trip from hell!
Thought:
We could kind of make an analogy... Say, a
Now, for Kyouko, what we did was HUGE. But from our side, we just put in a word and that caused someone else to throw a bitchfest at some people and that was it. Nobody did a huge labor of work in order to save the church. There was a lot of serendipity involved.
BTW, we should compliment Yuma on her new dress at some point.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is why I think the metabomb isn't the most important part of our nature for Kyoko, our being an apparently-artificial person with a base goal of helping is. That's different from just being a nice person.
We're sitting on a building antenna, right? Won't a privacy sphere - right here - stop reception badly enough for someone to send repair / maintenance guys up here?
[X] Kaizuki
Inb4 Maintenance Guy who Kyuubey won't mindwipe because his older sister was a Magical Girl who got eaten by a Witch while trying to protect him when he was seven. Mindwipe exemptions last a lifetime, remember.
[X] Kaizuki
Inb4 Maintenance Guy who Kyuubey won't mindwipe because his older sister was a Magical Girl who got eaten by a Witch while trying to protect him when he was seven. Mindwipe exemptions last a lifetime, remember.
The tower probably isn't itself an antenna. If it's like the one in those picture, the antennas are all those little dishes and side bar things. As long as the privacy sphere doesn't include any antennas or clip through any wires, it should be fine
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
At any rate, we can move before putting up the field, if need be.
What's difficult is the Koko. The whole pesonality she tries to mantain is informed by her trauma. Having done this good thing for her could end up being a bad thing, if we handle things badly enough, as we gave something big to someone with a trauma fueled need to pay it back, but who... can't pay it back.
Given she mentioned training us, like she's looking for a way to feel like she's paying us back, maybe we can... well, do that, find a way, an excuse, to make Kyouko feel like she's paying us back.
Not dishonestly, but if we can ask Kyouko to pay us back... just a little, enough she feels she's doing something, rather than being a charity case?
Like, a start.
Would asking her to keep the Metabomb secret be a good start?
I'm partial to the Kai vote... just depersonalize it and give Firn more freedom to write it however the writing flows? Also, this thing/idea:
[] Answer:
-[] If she saved a man dying of thirst by handing them a glass of water, would he owe her his life?
-[] You tried to help because it was right, because she deserves to have a place to call her own. Everyone does.
-[] All you did was talk to Mika for a few minutes; Mika threw a tantrum at some rich people; the project got shelved.
[] If she really wants to pay you back, you'll accept that, but you don't think she owes you anything.
-[] Ask her to think about it. There was more serendipity than effort involved on your part.
(This is an attempt to take some of the pressure off Kyouko's shoulders.)
[] That said, there's something you want to ask of her.
-[] Make a Privacy Device. Usual warnings; and watch out for the antenna.
-[] Ask Kyouko and Yuma to keep a secret. And to not explode at you for it;Madokami knows Sayaka was mad enough when you told her.
-[] (METABOMB) Remember your weird 'amnesia'? Part of the things you just know have to do with their lives. You know they deserve better because you know their lives were horribly unfair to them.
(Screw it, maybe we should ask for payment in hugs.
)
What's difficult is the Koko. The whole pesonality she tries to mantain is informed by her trauma. Having done this good thing for her could end up being a bad thing, if we handle things badly enough, as we gave something big to someone with a trauma fueled need to pay it back, but who... can't pay it back.
Given she mentioned training us, like she's looking for a way to feel like she's paying us back, maybe we can... well, do that, find a way, an excuse, to make Kyouko feel like she's paying us back.
Not dishonestly, but if we can ask Kyouko to pay us back... just a little, enough she feels she's doing something, rather than being a charity case?
Like, a start.
Would asking her to keep the Metabomb secret be a good start?
I'm partial to the Kai vote... just depersonalize it and give Firn more freedom to write it however the writing flows? Also, this thing/idea:
[] Answer:
-[] If she saved a man dying of thirst by handing them a glass of water, would he owe her his life?
-[] You tried to help because it was right, because she deserves to have a place to call her own. Everyone does.
-[] All you did was talk to Mika for a few minutes; Mika threw a tantrum at some rich people; the project got shelved.
[] If she really wants to pay you back, you'll accept that, but you don't think she owes you anything.
-[] Ask her to think about it. There was more serendipity than effort involved on your part.
(This is an attempt to take some of the pressure off Kyouko's shoulders.)
[] That said, there's something you want to ask of her.
-[] Make a Privacy Device. Usual warnings; and watch out for the antenna.
-[] Ask Kyouko and Yuma to keep a secret. And to not explode at you for it;
-[] (METABOMB) Remember your weird 'amnesia'? Part of the things you just know have to do with their lives. You know they deserve better because you know their lives were horribly unfair to them.
(Screw it, maybe we should ask for payment in hugs.
)
- Location
- Illinois
I'm not actually interested in... No, that's an understatement, I am actively opposed to a line going "if she really wants to pay you back then fine." Being okay with her owing us anything is totally and completely counterproductive unless we've already gone over her backstory and the metabomb with her. It goes against our interest in her well-being in favor of grabbing a capability to manipulate her, and it's a one-way ticket to a landmine when the truth comes out.
Depersonalization is definitely something I'm going to work on over the next couple days, but honestly...
Hm. I'm going to go to bed now.
Depersonalization is definitely something I'm going to work on over the next couple days, but honestly...
Hm. I'm going to go to bed now.
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The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
So, fundamentally, I think we should address this current bit before whatever privacy device we use comes up. I feel like the conversation flowing right is important to addressing Kyouko's feelings here, and that that is at odds with the trance/enchantment time needed for a privacy device. "You've just revealed one of the most important and painful things to you in the world but gimme seven minutes" does not feel conducive to a good situation.
While our metaknowledge can help us explain everything, it's not necessary for everything, and more important here in the next few minutes that we understand the gravity of Kyouko's situation and feelings, than how we understand them.
Honestly, I think we're in the same situation as Hitomi and Sayaka right now. Both us and Hitomi did a friend a seemingly small favor over someone's home, and now we have a life-debt on our hands with no good way to get rid of it, and might get into trouble trying. (Assuming Hitomi hasn't already tried and failed to talk Sayaka out of things.)
Not sure if that specifically is helpful here and now, but it feels like something that might have a point. (Or might have, had we gone with the flow and talked to her with Sayaka present. Not sure if that would have been for better or for worse.)
Anyways...
Kyouko's debt:
[] You get what that means to her, you really do: That church was her home, with everything that means.
--[???] Two of your other friends are in the same position with each other and you've seen how that lies between them.
// Not sure whether this fits here or if this is the place to start hinting at or raising it, but I do think Us, Kyouko, Hitomi, and Sayaka talking about similar debts might do some good. At the very least it allows some commiseration and mutual understanding and it also offers some perspective.
-[] At the same time you want to explain your own feelings: Part of it is that the effort you put in doesn't match the weight of its impact on her.
--[] You didn't slay a dragon or even really work to help her; you just lent an ear, made an introduction, and someone else threw a tantrum at some rich people.
// Once again it seems I and Onmur think along similar lines. Focusing here about the divide between impact to Kyouko and effort put in, because I think that gets to one of the cores of the issue here: We didn't do much to make this happen. (There's more and it goes far deeper than that, The other being that we just don't want her debt in the first place, though I'll admit I don't have a good grasp on Kai's thoughts and portion of our reasons.)
[] If she really wants to pay you back, you'll talk about that, but at this point you want to table that until after you talk about everything else.
Metabomb:
[] Ask Kyouko if she minds if you put something up to block eavesdropping. Yes, you really do think someone's listening in.
[] Whatever privacy device we go with.
// Might be worth pushing the explanation of what we're doing with the grief ball earlier, but I don't want to wait to have the device itself ready nor trance out for it. Kind of a matter of maximizing secrecy vs Kyouko's needs.
[] About dark secrets: She and Yuma has a right to know one of yours. Especially if they feel indebted to you. It affects both of them.
// I don't think leaving Yuma out of the metabomb is necessary or wise. This does affect Yuma, and I don't think there's anything in the metabomb that she shouldn't hear. Especially as Yuma is notably resistant to the infobombs (the witchbomb in particular) to the point of even talking other folks, including Mami, away from the brink.
[] Continue to metabomb structure: Talk about being artificial, having knowledge of possible futures as a result of that, and how that relates to Kyouko and her debt to you.
My initial plan is outdated in at least some sections, so I'm currently thinking through and rebuilding things, but I think there's enough to talk about that this vote plan is worth putting forth in the meantime.
-[Do think this should be brought up, but saving it for after the metabomb, if its decided we can't, or shouldn't, talk her out of debt:] As far as helping Mika, you're planning to use your magic for some construction work for her company, if that interests her.
While our metaknowledge can help us explain everything, it's not necessary for everything, and more important here in the next few minutes that we understand the gravity of Kyouko's situation and feelings, than how we understand them.
I'm of an opposing belief: Given the feelings Kyouko's has expressed just now, I'm not sure it will be possible to reject her debt, and while we should explain ourselves in full, I feel like nothing good will come of being too forceful in rejecting her. This deeply matters to Kyouko, enough so that she's trying to bring up her past to show how much paying it back means to her.
Honestly, I think we're in the same situation as Hitomi and Sayaka right now. Both us and Hitomi did a friend a seemingly small favor over someone's home, and now we have a life-debt on our hands with no good way to get rid of it, and might get into trouble trying. (Assuming Hitomi hasn't already tried and failed to talk Sayaka out of things.)
Not sure if that specifically is helpful here and now, but it feels like something that might have a point. (Or might have, had we gone with the flow and talked to her with Sayaka present. Not sure if that would have been for better or for worse.)
Anyways...
Kyouko's debt:
[] You get what that means to her, you really do: That church was her home, with everything that means.
--[???] Two of your other friends are in the same position with each other and you've seen how that lies between them.
// Not sure whether this fits here or if this is the place to start hinting at or raising it, but I do think Us, Kyouko, Hitomi, and Sayaka talking about similar debts might do some good. At the very least it allows some commiseration and mutual understanding and it also offers some perspective.
-[] At the same time you want to explain your own feelings: Part of it is that the effort you put in doesn't match the weight of its impact on her.
--[] You didn't slay a dragon or even really work to help her; you just lent an ear, made an introduction, and someone else threw a tantrum at some rich people.
// Once again it seems I and Onmur think along similar lines. Focusing here about the divide between impact to Kyouko and effort put in, because I think that gets to one of the cores of the issue here: We didn't do much to make this happen. (There's more and it goes far deeper than that, The other being that we just don't want her debt in the first place, though I'll admit I don't have a good grasp on Kai's thoughts and portion of our reasons.)
[] If she really wants to pay you back, you'll talk about that, but at this point you want to table that until after you talk about everything else.
Metabomb:
[] Ask Kyouko if she minds if you put something up to block eavesdropping. Yes, you really do think someone's listening in.
[] Whatever privacy device we go with.
// Might be worth pushing the explanation of what we're doing with the grief ball earlier, but I don't want to wait to have the device itself ready nor trance out for it. Kind of a matter of maximizing secrecy vs Kyouko's needs.
[] About dark secrets: She and Yuma has a right to know one of yours. Especially if they feel indebted to you. It affects both of them.
// I don't think leaving Yuma out of the metabomb is necessary or wise. This does affect Yuma, and I don't think there's anything in the metabomb that she shouldn't hear. Especially as Yuma is notably resistant to the infobombs (the witchbomb in particular) to the point of even talking other folks, including Mami, away from the brink.
[] Continue to metabomb structure: Talk about being artificial, having knowledge of possible futures as a result of that, and how that relates to Kyouko and her debt to you.
My initial plan is outdated in at least some sections, so I'm currently thinking through and rebuilding things, but I think there's enough to talk about that this vote plan is worth putting forth in the meantime.
-[Do think this should be brought up, but saving it for after the metabomb, if its decided we can't, or shouldn't, talk her out of debt:] As far as helping Mika, you're planning to use your magic for some construction work for her company, if that interests her.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
So, I just had an idea for some SCIENCE. We can test whether Kyubey has individuality or not by grabbing one and taking it into a privacy sphere. If it collapses, we know that they are continuously controlled remotely.
If it can still move and talk, then we know they have some level of autonomy and are probably given some kind of higher orders/information, but do not depend on their connection to their species for orders on every movement they make. From there, we can talk to it to determine just how much information and autonomy it has when not connected to the incubator collective. Also determine whether it's more willing to part with information this way and how/whether it's personality changes.
At the end, destroy the incubator body to prevent information on the privacy sphere's effects on him from being relayed back to the incubator species.
It's basic research, and certainly not something we should do during the srs bsns talk with Kyoko, but it could be interesting to find out, and might be useful further down the road. For example if Kyubey collapses, that might give Niko ideas for how to build a better anti-Kyubey field.
If it can still move and talk, then we know they have some level of autonomy and are probably given some kind of higher orders/information, but do not depend on their connection to their species for orders on every movement they make. From there, we can talk to it to determine just how much information and autonomy it has when not connected to the incubator collective. Also determine whether it's more willing to part with information this way and how/whether it's personality changes.
At the end, destroy the incubator body to prevent information on the privacy sphere's effects on him from being relayed back to the incubator species.
It's basic research, and certainly not something we should do during the srs bsns talk with Kyoko, but it could be interesting to find out, and might be useful further down the road. For example if Kyubey collapses, that might give Niko ideas for how to build a better anti-Kyubey field.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
@The Phoenixian 's proto-plan is the best of the bunch, in my opinion.
It seems really unlikely that we can just dismiss the debt before proceeding with the metabomb, and just brushing something this important to Kyouko off would probably trigger her.
It seems really unlikely that we can just dismiss the debt before proceeding with the metabomb, and just brushing something this important to Kyouko off would probably trigger her.
- Location
- Illinois
Given that you've summarily ignored the thing I noted was Need To Be Said, I can see I'm going to have to write an awful lot more on this subject. Fun.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
I'm writing up more right now, but my thoughts on that subject are that I'm not using the "she deserved it" argument for two reasons. Firstly, because I can't see the underpinnings and specifics of it in a way that would cancel out Kyouko's feelings indebtedness to us like how we were able to say we were even with Mami. As it stands, I can't see anything there that wouldn't be replaced equally or better by, "I did this because I wanted to, because I believe it to be my calling in the world, not to seek repayment." Secondly, I'm not that broader line in general, because I can't see any way to do so that doesn't end in our steadfast rejection, which I've made my worries clear about.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Still haven't properly slept so absolutely not finalizing this, but... continuing thoughts.
[] You get what that means to her, you really do: That church was her home, with everything that means.
-[] You'll respect that, but you want to at least explain your own feelings.
--[] Part of it is that the effort you put in doesn't match the weight of its impact on her. You didn't really work for it; you just lent an ear, made an introduction, and someone else threw a tantrum at some rich people.
--[] You also just plain don't want to be holding something over her. You don't want to force or manipulate people into things or tempt your control freak side. Been there, done that, got the lousy tee shirts and regrets to prove it, and not interested in more. Like she said: Past mistakes and dark sides happen and this is how you're dealing with yours.
// This is what I think to be our honest feelings, as I understand them. I think "holding something over Kyouko," isn't quite the heart of our metabomb troubles but while it's adjacent to our feelings about it, it goes to something else that runs deep and doesn't invoke it. Because we don't like holding things over people, and we act that way all the time. Look at how often we specifically avoid roping people into Walpurgisnacht when we bring her up --- Our talks on the matter with Kyouko and Mika for example. I'm guessing here that it's an "avoiding our control freak tendencies" thing, and that part of how we avoid those tendencies is by staying the hell away from them, but it might come from somewhere else.
//Also, contemplating how valid a point the Hitomi and Sayaka parallels are to the latter topic here. "You have friends in a similar position and you've seen how that lies between them." For now not mentioning it because it's a new idea, and the core here is really the stuff we've been thinking about all along. But mostly keeping it in this post to table it, because a relevant spot could come up.
[] If she really wants to pay you back, you'll talk about that, but at this point you want to table that until after you talk about everything else. Because there is a little more.
Metabomb:
[] Ask Kyouko if she minds if you putting up something a bit witchy to block eavesdropping. Yes, you really do think someone's listening in.
[] Whatever privacy device we go with.
[] About dark secrets: She and Yuma has a right to know one of yours. Especially if they feel indebted to you. It affects both of them. Because another part of your misgivings is that you don't think you have any right to accept a debt made with this left unspoken. Though you'll explain as best you can if they choose not to know.
//I think this may be a place lack of sleep is messing with things since there's no thought on offering the choice to know beyond "giving choices is important." but I do think it may be possible to explain things to Kyouko if she chooses not to know: Our situation puts us in a position to manipulate her and Yuma and we don't want her indebted to us while that's true. Simple as that.
// Beyond that I think this gets to the heart of the potential metabomb issue: We know stuff that could allow us to manipulate her and so makes a debt uneven until it's revealed.
[] Continue to metabomb structure: Talk about being artificial, having knowledge of possible futures as a result of that, and how that relates to Kyouko and her debt to you.
[] You get what that means to her, you really do: That church was her home, with everything that means.
-[] You'll respect that, but you want to at least explain your own feelings.
--[] Part of it is that the effort you put in doesn't match the weight of its impact on her. You didn't really work for it; you just lent an ear, made an introduction, and someone else threw a tantrum at some rich people.
--[] You also just plain don't want to be holding something over her. You don't want to force or manipulate people into things or tempt your control freak side. Been there, done that, got the lousy tee shirts and regrets to prove it, and not interested in more. Like she said: Past mistakes and dark sides happen and this is how you're dealing with yours.
// This is what I think to be our honest feelings, as I understand them. I think "holding something over Kyouko," isn't quite the heart of our metabomb troubles but while it's adjacent to our feelings about it, it goes to something else that runs deep and doesn't invoke it. Because we don't like holding things over people, and we act that way all the time. Look at how often we specifically avoid roping people into Walpurgisnacht when we bring her up --- Our talks on the matter with Kyouko and Mika for example. I'm guessing here that it's an "avoiding our control freak tendencies" thing, and that part of how we avoid those tendencies is by staying the hell away from them, but it might come from somewhere else.
//Also, contemplating how valid a point the Hitomi and Sayaka parallels are to the latter topic here. "You have friends in a similar position and you've seen how that lies between them." For now not mentioning it because it's a new idea, and the core here is really the stuff we've been thinking about all along. But mostly keeping it in this post to table it, because a relevant spot could come up.
[] If she really wants to pay you back, you'll talk about that, but at this point you want to table that until after you talk about everything else. Because there is a little more.
Metabomb:
[] Ask Kyouko if she minds if you putting up something a bit witchy to block eavesdropping. Yes, you really do think someone's listening in.
[] Whatever privacy device we go with.
[] About dark secrets: She and Yuma has a right to know one of yours. Especially if they feel indebted to you. It affects both of them. Because another part of your misgivings is that you don't think you have any right to accept a debt made with this left unspoken. Though you'll explain as best you can if they choose not to know.
//I think this may be a place lack of sleep is messing with things since there's no thought on offering the choice to know beyond "giving choices is important." but I do think it may be possible to explain things to Kyouko if she chooses not to know: Our situation puts us in a position to manipulate her and Yuma and we don't want her indebted to us while that's true. Simple as that.
// Beyond that I think this gets to the heart of the potential metabomb issue: We know stuff that could allow us to manipulate her and so makes a debt uneven until it's revealed.
[] Continue to metabomb structure: Talk about being artificial, having knowledge of possible futures as a result of that, and how that relates to Kyouko and her debt to you.
Article: If Kyouko feels she owes you, well this all happened because she bared her heart to you, you did some trivial stuff, and accidentally rocked her world as a result.
So you'd like to talk to her about one of the things that terrifies you most of anything in the world, just ask her to listen and talk until you're done and not leave out of hand, and she can judge afterwards if the trade was equal.
[Insert Privacy sphere here]
She and Yuma deserve to know this anyways.
You're guess Kyouko is wondering what you actually want out of all this. What your angle is.
So... fuck it.
What you want is to fulfill what you guess is your reason for existing, you want everyone to be happy, but mostly you want the first and foremost people you ever knew about to meet and be friends. Meeting for the first time and reuniting both.
But you don't have the right to demand that. You don't have the right to manipulate or cajole it into happening. No one does. But she's part of it, and she deserves to know.
You woke up, dying in an alley, with no memories of your past. Instead you had a great deal of knowledge about the world of magical girls, it's history, and one month of its future, as if learned through multiple versions of a tale of five magical girls in Mitakihara, the people around them, and some important moments from their pasts. Including her and Mami.
This means that something almost certainly made you that way, but frankly you're pretty damn sure it's benevolent, and largely irrelevant besides.
You'd love to flat out tell everything. But you have to keep secrets. Some are important to people and their safety. Some would just kill people.
Some would be enough that Kyubey would happily manipulate everyone into murdering each other for. He's half the reason you're so afraid of this in the first place.
(Continue from here, still needs to be written and planned)
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- Location
- Illinois
In terms of "canceling debt," I think you're missing a key subtlety here:
I'm not arguing that we need to obviate it. The issue is that under current circumstances it's detrimental to our efforts. I'm fine with Kyouko deciding she owes us, I am not fine with Kyouko deciding she owes us when we're still at arms' length from each other. The reason the vote doesn't say "Kyouko owing us isn't something we want right now" is that that would imply it's something we would want eventually, which... isn't really the case. We want Kyouko to work with us because she decides she wants to, not out of a sense of debt.
As for the "she deserves our help" thing...
... have you read TDS, Phoenixian?
Kyouko's entire issue is that she feels she's responsible for what happened to her family.
She doesn't believe that she deserves good things after that -- or, if we're somehow in the million-to-one world where she does, then saying that she does doesn't hurt us.
You talk about the possibility of steadfast rejection... But, y'see, here's the thing: if Kyouko wants to "steadfastly reject" us saying that she deserves a helping hand right in front of Yuma, then I. Am. Game.
That route is a Good Thing, because it's the ideal situation for something that has to happen eventually. Kyouko doesn't believe she deserves good things, and eventually we have to refute that if we ever want to get anywhere with her... and I've gotta say -- we want Yuma there when we do, because Yuma doesn't accept that Kyouko is someone who doesn't deserve good things, and because she and Kyouko are very close. Yuma and Sabrina back each other up, Sabrina drops the metabomb, tells her that we feel she deserves good things even knowing what happened, Yuma agrees. It makes it harder for Kyouko to keep resisting -- what's she gonna do, run away from Yuma?
If this were in a vacuum between us and Kyouko things would be different. I'd be more worried about exactly what you're pointing to, among other things. But Yuma is right here, and Kyouko is talking about personal things with her present, and that gives us a Very Big Opportunity to be a lot more forward about things.
Really, my big personal preference would be to have nothing to do with the bloody privacy stuff at all, and to just proceed immediately before the situation has a chance to change. If we just had enough enchanted grief on hand...!
...!!!
We did scene-skip directly to Kasamino without being in air... @Firnagzen? Did we...?
You know, given that the trip was cut out and that there was a standing at the end of last vote -- the result of the vote prior to that -- I'm going with "we did." Given that we were planning on talking about the metabomb, it was fairly obvious...
Then, that just leaves how much we can do outside the sphere. I'd kind of assumed everything had to be inside it. But... if we could just...
Yeah, this works too much better to not go for it.
[X] Tone: steady, firm. Look Kyouko in the eyes. You came out here to help her because you wanted to since she deserved it, not to win her favor or somesuch. Steady, soft: her owing you is something you don't want. You want Kyouko to do things for Kyouko, not for Sabrina, because Kyouko really needs that.
I'd kill to just have that one line be the entire vote and see where Kyouko and Yuma take us. There are, as I have said, many possible paths.
-[X] In response to an assertion that Kyouko doesn't deserve something: apologize for being worried about being overheard, warn Mami via telepathy, privacy sphere from enchanted grief. Include Yuma. Drop the metabomb: minimize details, note that you've been telling your other close friends about it, you know a lot of peoples' rough backgrounds, though not your own. Assert that you know all about the events that lead to the Sakura church being abandoned, and reaffirm that Kyouko deserves good things. Do not talk about specifics of Kyouko's past unless you are challenged to.
--[X] Otherwise, cut to voting quickly.
Oh, and this thing?
Firstly, too preachy. Kyouko is suspicious of that stuff, for deeply-rooted reasons. Secondly, again, the crux of Kyouko's issues is that she believes she doesn't deserves good things, and eventually it has to be confronted, and it needs to be confronted with Yuma present and with the metabomb ready or dropped. Third, it's much too open to Kyouko simply responding "well too bad" in much the way she literally just did, because it doesn't include any reason why she shouldn't repay us anyway. Fourth, quite frankly, we said that last post.
I'm not arguing that we need to obviate it. The issue is that under current circumstances it's detrimental to our efforts. I'm fine with Kyouko deciding she owes us, I am not fine with Kyouko deciding she owes us when we're still at arms' length from each other. The reason the vote doesn't say "Kyouko owing us isn't something we want right now" is that that would imply it's something we would want eventually, which... isn't really the case. We want Kyouko to work with us because she decides she wants to, not out of a sense of debt.
As for the "she deserves our help" thing...
... have you read TDS, Phoenixian?
Kyouko's entire issue is that she feels she's responsible for what happened to her family.
She doesn't believe that she deserves good things after that -- or, if we're somehow in the million-to-one world where she does, then saying that she does doesn't hurt us.
You talk about the possibility of steadfast rejection... But, y'see, here's the thing: if Kyouko wants to "steadfastly reject" us saying that she deserves a helping hand right in front of Yuma, then I. Am. Game.
That route is a Good Thing, because it's the ideal situation for something that has to happen eventually. Kyouko doesn't believe she deserves good things, and eventually we have to refute that if we ever want to get anywhere with her... and I've gotta say -- we want Yuma there when we do, because Yuma doesn't accept that Kyouko is someone who doesn't deserve good things, and because she and Kyouko are very close. Yuma and Sabrina back each other up, Sabrina drops the metabomb, tells her that we feel she deserves good things even knowing what happened, Yuma agrees. It makes it harder for Kyouko to keep resisting -- what's she gonna do, run away from Yuma?
If this were in a vacuum between us and Kyouko things would be different. I'd be more worried about exactly what you're pointing to, among other things. But Yuma is right here, and Kyouko is talking about personal things with her present, and that gives us a Very Big Opportunity to be a lot more forward about things.
Really, my big personal preference would be to have nothing to do with the bloody privacy stuff at all, and to just proceed immediately before the situation has a chance to change. If we just had enough enchanted grief on hand...!
...!!!
We did scene-skip directly to Kasamino without being in air... @Firnagzen? Did we...?
You know, given that the trip was cut out and that there was a standing at the end of last vote -- the result of the vote prior to that -- I'm going with "we did." Given that we were planning on talking about the metabomb, it was fairly obvious...
Then, that just leaves how much we can do outside the sphere. I'd kind of assumed everything had to be inside it. But... if we could just...
Yeah, this works too much better to not go for it.
[X] Tone: steady, firm. Look Kyouko in the eyes. You came out here to help her because you wanted to since she deserved it, not to win her favor or somesuch. Steady, soft: her owing you is something you don't want. You want Kyouko to do things for Kyouko, not for Sabrina, because Kyouko really needs that.
I'd kill to just have that one line be the entire vote and see where Kyouko and Yuma take us. There are, as I have said, many possible paths.
-[X] In response to an assertion that Kyouko doesn't deserve something: apologize for being worried about being overheard, warn Mami via telepathy, privacy sphere from enchanted grief. Include Yuma. Drop the metabomb: minimize details, note that you've been telling your other close friends about it, you know a lot of peoples' rough backgrounds, though not your own. Assert that you know all about the events that lead to the Sakura church being abandoned, and reaffirm that Kyouko deserves good things. Do not talk about specifics of Kyouko's past unless you are challenged to.
--[X] Otherwise, cut to voting quickly.
Oh, and this thing?
Firstly, too preachy. Kyouko is suspicious of that stuff, for deeply-rooted reasons. Secondly, again, the crux of Kyouko's issues is that she believes she doesn't deserves good things, and eventually it has to be confronted, and it needs to be confronted with Yuma present and with the metabomb ready or dropped. Third, it's much too open to Kyouko simply responding "well too bad" in much the way she literally just did, because it doesn't include any reason why she shouldn't repay us anyway. Fourth, quite frankly, we said that last post.
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