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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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In the end it all comes down to the fact that we need to find that professional therapist asap, then toss each of our friends into a room with them even asap'er, because we're brushing up against the limits of what we realistically can do as a teenage girl with no professional qualifications. And I'm not saying that to downplay Sabrina's abilities or anything, far from it. We can improve Kyouko's living conditions and social life, even be her friend and be a positive influence on her psyche (like Yuma is), but when it comes to actively fixing the core of her trauma, we're just woefully underequiped. It takes years of professional counseling to work those out. I'm not trying to downplay Sabrina's successes so far here, she's done a frankly fantastic job given the mountain of craptastic issues shoveled onto her plate, but just like how she needed help to safely contain Rionna and the other girl, to truly help Kyouko (and Homura and Mami and Sayaka and even Madoka too), Sabrina herself will need help. She can't do this one on her own.

... unless someone wishes for it? :thonk:
 
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Kaizuki said:
There's three (sort of four) possibilities, here. One is that in PMAS, the entirety of Kyouko's backstory amounts to enemy action, featuring Kyubey intentionally not wiping Kyouko's Dad's memory of the scene that can be expected to screw over Kyouko -- of Kyouko standing over a bunch of unconscious bodies in front of a !$&% altar in an ornate dress.

Another possibility is that Kyouko asked Kyubey to not wipe her father's memory. That would be, uh, that would be... awfully interesting, with some pretty negative implications. It would mean that Kyouko has dug herself a good bit deeper into her hole in PMAS, since it would basically be a second point where she could've just not done that and things could conceivably have been okay.

The third possibility is that TDS is only quasi-canon to PMAS, and there's some other explanation that we don't know anything about -- it's important to note that the entire "QB wipes memories" thing isn't actually present in canon, though it's present in multiple instances in PMAS. If this is the case, I'd expect @Firnagzen to say something in response to this, because in general we're working on the presumption that TDS is canon to PMAS...
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TDS is canon to PMAS. And, well expecting consistency over optimization from Kyuubey... would not be wise.

Also, I forgot to comment on this:
Norad the Borad said:
Bam.
Abra cadabra I giveth thee part one out of three on A Stupid Thing About Tea™
Alas, I suck at chibi.
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which is great! Got a chuckle out of me.
 
Torgamous said:
This can be resolved by being even more direct. "You leaving Mami left a gaping wound in her psyche that I've only been able to anesthetize" is harder to refute that way.
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I like the idea here, even though the phrasing seems a bit emotionally manipulative.
Laurelin said:
... unless someone wishes for it? :thonk:
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I'm pretty sure that encouraging people to contract and manipulating wishes counts as evil.

I don't actually have a problem with Spectral Waltz's vote, but this is a good chance to chip at the Great Wall of Kyouko.

I think directly confronting her with an unqualified assertion that it's not her fault is likely to lead to rejection, with a decent chance that the conversation will immediately end without a chance to argue. A better approach would probably be to frame it as an opinion. But that opinion should probably be followed by hard evidence, not platitudes about justice. I don't think that Kyouko believes in justice. I guess we could speechify on how justice exists in an uncaring world and the non-existence of selfless altruism. Not sure how well Kyouko would tolerate discussions of philosophy.
 
Unfortunately, my pillow didn't have much wisdom to share last night.

Only thought I've had is that Kyouko does not think of herself as a victim. It's not a new thought, we already went over her guilt, and how teenagers assign guilt and responsibility.

I guess I could say something, even if I think we agree on this already. There was one time in class, I think last year, when a not-so-hypothetical case was asked about:

Even thought it's a pretty common thing that happens every day, the news media had been going crazy over some case of a teen kid going to one of those god awful 'partying' places where they sell drugs and all that shit, and... let's say much worse things happen. Kid died, like many others do.

Now, the point: Some teachers brought up this in their classes, both their adult classes and their highschool classes, and asked one question: Whose fault was it?

From the adults, the answer was as could be expected: The fault lies in the institution, in drug trade, in inspectors who take bribes, in everything that allows such places to exist.

From teens, the answer was almost unanimously that it was the kid's fault. For going there, for takign drugs, or straight up for dying.

And the point beyond all that is: Teenagers blame the victim. It's a matter of empowerment; "I wouldn't do that/die", "he knew the risks, so it's his fault"...

All this is to say, as we all know, KB is a little shit, who takes advantadges of this and many other temporary 'weaknesses' in growing human beings... and this is where Kyouko and most meguca are at.

There's little thought for "I'm not mature/knowledgeable/wise enough to deal with a magical Wish!", it's more about "if this goes wrong, it's my fault."

Kyouko doesn't think of herself as a victim. She blames herself, because that's normal. And we need her to realize she's a victim. That KB is to blame instead.

Laurelin said:
We can improve Kyouko's living conditions and social life, even be her friend and be a positive influence on her psyche (like Yuma is)
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Like Yuma is?
Firnagzen said:
"Mrrh," Kyouko grunts. She's still not looking at you, staring out into the distance. Brooding, almost, except that Yuma's cuddled up into her side.
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[Q] Cuddle up into Kyouko's other side.
 
Okay, I've been busy with holiday stuffs the past few days, and have only now had the time to catch up on the current state of the discussion. I think that the current approach handles things a bit wrongly -- specifically, this is absolutely not a line that Sabrina should drop on Kyouko out of the blue, especially with Yuma right there -- it's far more likely to backfire spectacularly. Secondly, it doesn't establish why Kyouko's mind should be changed on this matter, let alone how to go about it (which are both ridiculously needed things for actually recovering). Thirdly, and worst of all, it doesn't answer Kyouko's question.

Sabrina has repeatedly helped Kyouko, and the leading votes have that as the intent once again (leaving aside the actual effect for now). The problem is that with our actions and our behavior, we've left Kyouko with no acceptable recourse. She doesn't feel like she can brush us off or attack us, she doesn't know anything about us that isn't "too far" as a response to get a rise out of us whenever we act in a way she wants to retaliate over. Much like with Mami and Homura, our metaknowledge and our straightforward earnestness has resulted in Sabrina bypassing all of Kyouko's defense mechanisms. This is not always a good thing, especially when dealing with someone whose main defense mechanisms are to isolate themselves so that they feel more in-control over the way events around them work out.

Sabrina has just revealed to Kyouko that she knows a great deal about her. Kyouko has immediately asked for information about Sabrina. If Sabrina immediately "evades" the question about her own motives, how might Kyouko react to that?

So to that end, I'm going to repost my vote and modify it, to take into account the concerns about how Kyouko's abrasiveness might impact Mami.

[X] Vote is not for exact phrasing, merely written that way to convey desired tone more clearly.
[X] "What do I want from you? What do you want from Yuma, or Yuma want from you? I woke up with nothing except these weird pseudo-memories of the lives of a handful of girls who I had never met before, and I knew just how badly the world screwed them over. And, surprise, surprise! Basic human nature means that you tend to care about the happiness and wellbeing of the first people you know about in life, you're more affected by what happens to them and how they act toward you. I might want to help everyone and fix everything, but I'm here because I'm being selfish. I care about the two of you more than most other magical girls."
-[X] Tone: Earnest conviction. Sabrina cares about and wants to help everyone, but she cares even more about the people her metaknowledge focused on.
[X] If Kyouko persists in needing to treat this as a debt owed:
-[X] "Alright, if that's what's needed for you to feel better about it, then I can think of something where I would owe you a huge favor. I want to try to rebuild the friendship between you and Mami."
--[X] Note: Sabrina should make it clear that this is an entirely 'selfish' request, and one that Kyouko is free to reject.
 
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Torgamous said:
This can be resolved by being even more direct. "You leaving Mami left a gaping wound in her psyche that I've only been able to anesthetize" is harder to refute that way.
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TJSomething said:
I like the idea here, even though the phrasing seems a bit emotionally manipulative.
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It would make Kyouko feel super guilty, I'd bet. Even going into explaining Mami's loneliness would probably make Kyouko feel hella guilty. It's not an easy thing to avoid if we want to talk about Mami with Kyouko, to be fair.

Godwinson said:
-[X] "Alright, if that's what's needed for you to feel better about it, then I can think of something where I would owe you a huge favor. I want to try to rebuild the friendship between you and Mami."
--[X] Note: Sabrina should make it clear that this is an entirely 'selfish' request, and one that Kyouko is free to reject.
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I think that solves the problem with the previous iteration.

Not sure about saying we're 'being selfish'. Yes, we want to help Kyouko and Yuma... regardless of whether they want us to, but that's pretty selfless?

That aside, I think it'd be easier for Firn to work with ideas, rather than phrasing. (... Just got a Deja vu. Wasn't that a big thing we'd decided on years ago? :thonk: ).

[] You want the same thing Kyouko and Yuma want from each other.
-[] You woke up knowing how unfair their lives were to them. So you care, want to help them even more than you want to help fix all the problems in the world.
-[?] You can't help it.
 
[X] Godwinson

I like just straight up telling Kyouko what we want. More information is good, and not just when it flows to us. (Yeah yeah, bombs are bad though, controlled circumstances, blah blah)
 
Onmur said:
It would make Kyouko feel super guilty, I'd bet. Even going into explaining Mami's loneliness would probably make Kyouko feel hella guilty. It's not an easy thing to avoid if we want to talk about Mami with Kyouko, to be fair.


I think that solves the problem with the previous iteration.

Not sure about saying we're 'being selfish'. Yes, we want to help Kyouko and Yuma... regardless of whether they want us to, but that's pretty selfless?

That aside, I think it'd be easier for Firn to work with ideas, rather than phrasing. (... Just got a Deja vu. Wasn't that a big thing we'd decided on years ago? :thonk: ).

[] You want the same thing Kyouko and Yuma want from each other.
-[] You woke up knowing how unfair their lives were to them. So you care, want to help them even more than you want to help fix all the problems in the world.
-[?] You can't help it.
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Here's the thing -- Sabrina isn't being wholly selfless here. Sure, she's helping them, but the reason why she's helping them is a selfish one. She cares about their happiness more than some random other person.

Also, Firn always takes votes as guidelines not exact phrasing (unless otherwise specified), but I'll edit in a line to that effect anyway.
 
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[X] Godwinson

As much as I stick to my "we need to get a therapist on these cases" stance, when it comes to Kyouko I think straightforward, blunt honesty like that is probably the best approach. I like the line about Yuma in there; it may be a cheap shot to hit her so close to her constantly-moving-home, but perhaps it might just get Kyouko to think about what we're trying to get her to understand, if only a little.
 
Laurelin said:
[X] Godwinson

As much as I stick to my "we need to get a therapist on these cases" stance, when it comes to Kyouko I think straightforward, blunt honesty like that is probably the best approach. I like the line about Yuma in there; it may be a cheap shot to hit her so close to her constantly-moving-home, but perhaps it might just get Kyouko to think about what we're trying to get her to understand, if only a little.
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More than that, it's part and parcel of the later clause, where Sabrina is indirectly stating that she's helping Kyouko because the girls she has metaknowledge about are as close as this lost amnesiac magical girl gets to having a family. And altruism toward a surrogate family is a motivation that Kyouko gets.

You know, thinking about it? I'd rather go with a slightly shorter vote here, rather than burning words on a conditional that might not even happen. Seriously, Firn has been so swamped lately that his update rate is suffering, so a shorter vote might help with that.


[X] Vote is not for exact phrasing, merely written that way to convey desired tone more clearly.
[X] "What do I want from you? What do you want from Yuma, or Yuma want from you? I woke up with nothing except these weird pseudo-memories of the lives of a handful of girls who I had never met before, and I knew just how badly the world screwed them over. And, surprise, surprise! Basic human nature means that you tend to care about the happiness and wellbeing of the first people you know about in life, you're more affected by what happens to them and how they act toward you. I might want to help everyone and fix everything, but I'm here because I'm being selfish. I care about the two of you more than most other magical girls."
-[X] Tone: Earnest conviction. Sabrina cares about and wants to help everyone, but she cares even more about the people her metaknowledge focused on.
 
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[X] Godwinson

I think I remember a whole debacle about vote lines, and Firn trying to use speech vote lines as voted on, but that was years ago... I guess Firn might be more loose about that by now.
 
[X] Godwinson

I kind of want to see if it's possible to tell Kyouko the about foresight aspect of our metaknowledge, since our words to her reads like we just know about the past but that nitpick on a plausible misunderstanding aside, this is good.
 
On rereading, brina is just right about this.

Need to reiterate that we want to help her before saying anything else. Most of what i said stands, but... This isn't the time.

[X] Godwinson

Firnagzen said:
TDS is canon to PMAS. And, well expecting consistency over optimization from Kyuubey... would not be wise.

Also, I forgot to comment on this:

which is great! Got a chuckle out of me.
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Also uh wow, so, then, I think we need confirmation or disproval of what Corundum said, so... I'll go look for that in a bit.
 
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The Phoenixian said:
[X] Godwinson

I kind of want to see if it's possible to tell Kyouko the about foresight aspect of our metaknowledge, since our words to her reads like we just know about the past but that nitpick on a plausible misunderstanding aside, this is good.
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Yeah. The way I see it, the important thing here is that Kyouko needs to know what our motivation is, why we're doing this. Something that she can believe. Her distrust of our motive being pure aloof altruism is well-rooted, because it isn't. Sabrina has a vested interest in Kyouko, and it's obvious she does. The question has always been what and why.

The answer is that Sabrina cares about her more than a stranger because of the secret just revealed.
Corundum said:
I'd thought it was established (In Quest) that Kyuubey doesn't wipe the "Friends or Family" of a magical girl who learn the truth. I think it comes up when we learned about Hitomi's Mom being a former friend of a magical girl. I'd have to look for the quote though.

Kyouko was already a magical girl when her father learned, so her father doesn't get wiped. Sayaka was not, so her parent's do.

TDS doesn't show us Kyouko asking Kyuubey to mindwipe her father, and the Little White Rat gets a lot of mileage out of "You Never Asked."

We also don't know that mindwipe exemptions aren't permanent.
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You have the issue reversed -- the families of magical girls are mindwiped until and unless the magical girl requests otherwise. Likewise her friends. Hitomi's Mom was exempted at the request of her meguca friend, and then QB never bothered to catch up with and mindwipe her.
 
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...

Okay, so...

Firnagzen said:
TDS is canon to PMAS. And, well expecting consistency over optimization from Kyuubey... would not be wise.

Also, I forgot to comment on this:

which is great! Got a chuckle out of me.
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Uhm.

Then...

I think that may well be tacit confirmation. That's... That's hella interesting. We should mention this to Homura, she may have more insight into it.
 
Firn gave tacit confirmation? Oh, well...

[Q] Give in. Microwave the tea. It's what the universe wants from you.
-[Q] Pull Kyouko and Yuma along for the wild ride.
--[Q] This will be your secret, your shared sin.
---[Q] The one thing you will always hide from Mami.
----[Q] This is how the three of you become sisters, not in blood, but in oath.
-----[Q] Sisters in Microwaved Tea.
 
Onmur said:
Firn gave tacit confirmation? Oh, well...

[Q] Give in. Microwave the tea. It's what the universe wants from you.
-[Q] Pull Kyouko and Yuma along for the wild ride.
--[Q] This will be your secret, your shared sin.
---[Q] The one thing you will always hide from Mami.
----[Q] This is how the three of you become sisters, not in blood, but in oath.
-----[Q] Sisters in Microwaved Tea.
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Hey. Kyouko may not be on speaking terms with Mami right now, but she still has some standards.
 
I have found something very important.

[Q] Adopt a thinking pose.
-[Q] What does it matter if, to another universe, you are only fictional?
--[Q] You only inhabit the universe you exist in.
---[Q] It's real to you.
----[Q] "I urge to hug, therefore I am."

Kyouko sighs. "Please don't tell me you're having existential issues."

"Do you think I'm right?" asks Sabrina, head on her chin.

"Look, we're talking about my issues now, OK? It's my turn."

Yuma chimes in. "We can talk about your issues after you finish Befriending Big Sis Kyouko."

"Well, OK," Sabrin shrugs.

"Yeah," nods Kyouko.

The white haired girl and the greenette stare at the redhead.

"What? You were expecting the tsundere act?"

"Shit," swears Sabrina, now holding her head, "she's undergoing character development! I-I'm so good at this! I Befriend, therefore I am?"

"That one doesn't make sense," scoffs Kyouko.

"Uh... I microwave tea, therefore I am?"

"That's even more wrong," Yuma shakes her had, arms crossed, "the whole point is to prove your actual existence and that of the world around you, as opposed to you fooling yourself into believing you exist. Your initial example was actually a good one, as the urge to give hugs is one that comes upon us without warning, without intention. It comes from within, in a more primal sense than any thought or idea we could form with our conscious mind. But more important..."

"... Yes?" blinks Sabrina.

"It's Big Sis' turn!" the little girl snaps an open palm towards said Big Sis, who sits there sulking glaring at Sabrina.

"Right, right, sorry," Sabrins shrugs apologetically, "I really talk too much sometimes."

"Right-"

"-Therefore I am."

"AGH!"

Kyouko's spear swooshes over Sabrina's ducking head.
 
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