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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
PhDEevee
Mathematician and Questgiver
- Location
- Sydney
Ye gods, someone actually voted for mine. I am surprised but flattered, and shall repost my vote in the hope that I can attract more people.
[] Because I care about you. Because I didn't want you to die.
-[] Telling you about Kyubey and what he did to our souls almost killed you, Mami. I couldn't bear that.
-[] I knew you didn't know, so I lied about knowing you. So I could help you when you inevitably found out.
-[] But I have never lied about my feelings.
-[] I knew you were a kind and wonderful person before I met you, Mami. Now I really know you, you've become someone truly precious to me.
[] It was unfair to keep this from you, so I decided to tell you. I never wanted to hurt you.
-[] Please don't send me away.
Edit: Removed spoiler tags. Think people were ignoring it.
[] Because I care about you. Because I didn't want you to die.
-[] Telling you about Kyubey and what he did to our souls almost killed you, Mami. I couldn't bear that.
-[] I knew you didn't know, so I lied about knowing you. So I could help you when you inevitably found out.
-[] But I have never lied about my feelings.
-[] I knew you were a kind and wonderful person before I met you, Mami. Now I really know you, you've become someone truly precious to me.
[] It was unfair to keep this from you, so I decided to tell you. I never wanted to hurt you.
-[] Please don't send me away.
Edit: Removed spoiler tags. Think people were ignoring it.
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
[x] Julian Bradshaw
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Right, let's see if we can manage a vote that'll give her the reassurance that she needs up front, then answers when she's ready to hear them, without dumping a bunch of exposition on her if she's not ready to hear it.
[X] Because I was scared. Scared of losing you. Because I care about you, more than I've ever cared about anyone.
[X] I'm sorry. I should have told you a long time ago. I know that. I just... didn't know how to tell you.
[X] If that calms her enough that she's willing to listen to our explanation, then continue on to tell her the stuff below. If now or at any time later she needs more reassurance, more time to process what she's hearing, or more answers, give her that. If she needs some sort of concession or guarantee before she hears us out like holding on to our soul gem, agree. If she just needs us to be quiet and let her deal with this shit, do it. Whatever she needs.
[X] When she's ready, explain...
[X] At first, I didn't say anything because I didn't think anyone would believe me. How could anyone believe it? It seems so impossible. And Kyubey was always here… listening… spying on us. He could use the things I know to hurt people. If I'd told you when we first met what a monster he was, would you have believed me? And when I finally got up the courage to tell you that he was tricking you, to tell you the truth about Soul Gems, you were so hurt by it… I hated myself for putting you through that. I was afraid that if I tried to tell you the rest, I would hurt you again.
-[X] But that's all just excuses. The real reason is because I'm a coward. I was afraid of… well, of this. (Well, okay, not the ribbon thing; that was a surprise.) I was afraid of you hating me for keeping this from you. I was afraid of losing you. But I couldn't stay quiet any longer. It wasn't right. It wasn't fair to you. I don't want to keep secrets from you anymore. You're my best friend. You're the closest thing I have to family. I want to be honest with you. Even if… even if it costs me your friendship. You deserve the truth.
--[X] I don't know how I know these things. I'm not a clairvoyant. I didn't spy on you. I just woke up knowing them. I didn't recognize my own face in the mirror, but I knew who all of you were the moment I saw you. I knew that Homura had a good heart under that gruff exterior, and I knew that Kyubey was really a monster… and I knew that you were a hero. And when I actually got to know you, I discovered that you were even more amazing than I'd realized. If you can ever forgive me after all this... then I'd like nothing more than to stay by your side.
[X] I'll abide by whatever decision you make. I won't keep things from you anymore. Ask me anything. I'll tell you any secret that's mine to tell.
[X] If at time during the conversation, we sense that Mami's Soul Gem has reached half full again, remind her that she needs to cleanse it.
-[X] If Mami doesn't, tell her that we'll abide by any decision she makes… but we will not allow her to die because her Soul Gem filled up. Beg her to cleanse her Soul Gem, if need be.
--[X] If she doesn't cleanse it herself and it reaches dangerous levels, then we will use our powers to cleanse it for her, after warning her that we intend to. If by some miracle we're not still tied up at that point, we will not reach for it while cleansing it or make any other sudden movements that could startle her.
[X] Because I was scared. Scared of losing you. Because I care about you, more than I've ever cared about anyone.
[X] I'm sorry. I should have told you a long time ago. I know that. I just... didn't know how to tell you.
[X] If that calms her enough that she's willing to listen to our explanation, then continue on to tell her the stuff below. If now or at any time later she needs more reassurance, more time to process what she's hearing, or more answers, give her that. If she needs some sort of concession or guarantee before she hears us out like holding on to our soul gem, agree. If she just needs us to be quiet and let her deal with this shit, do it. Whatever she needs.
[X] When she's ready, explain...
[X] At first, I didn't say anything because I didn't think anyone would believe me. How could anyone believe it? It seems so impossible. And Kyubey was always here… listening… spying on us. He could use the things I know to hurt people. If I'd told you when we first met what a monster he was, would you have believed me? And when I finally got up the courage to tell you that he was tricking you, to tell you the truth about Soul Gems, you were so hurt by it… I hated myself for putting you through that. I was afraid that if I tried to tell you the rest, I would hurt you again.
-[X] But that's all just excuses. The real reason is because I'm a coward. I was afraid of… well, of this. (Well, okay, not the ribbon thing; that was a surprise.) I was afraid of you hating me for keeping this from you. I was afraid of losing you. But I couldn't stay quiet any longer. It wasn't right. It wasn't fair to you. I don't want to keep secrets from you anymore. You're my best friend. You're the closest thing I have to family. I want to be honest with you. Even if… even if it costs me your friendship. You deserve the truth.
--[X] I don't know how I know these things. I'm not a clairvoyant. I didn't spy on you. I just woke up knowing them. I didn't recognize my own face in the mirror, but I knew who all of you were the moment I saw you. I knew that Homura had a good heart under that gruff exterior, and I knew that Kyubey was really a monster… and I knew that you were a hero. And when I actually got to know you, I discovered that you were even more amazing than I'd realized. If you can ever forgive me after all this... then I'd like nothing more than to stay by your side.
[X] I'll abide by whatever decision you make. I won't keep things from you anymore. Ask me anything. I'll tell you any secret that's mine to tell.
[X] If at time during the conversation, we sense that Mami's Soul Gem has reached half full again, remind her that she needs to cleanse it.
-[X] If Mami doesn't, tell her that we'll abide by any decision she makes… but we will not allow her to die because her Soul Gem filled up. Beg her to cleanse her Soul Gem, if need be.
--[X] If she doesn't cleanse it herself and it reaches dangerous levels, then we will use our powers to cleanse it for her, after warning her that we intend to. If by some miracle we're not still tied up at that point, we will not reach for it while cleansing it or make any other sudden movements that could startle her.
Hmm. I like the subvote items here, but the lead line makes me nervous. I like Kaizuki's opener better:
So, frankenvote!
[X] Because I care deeply for you, to the point that I don't know what I'd do without you. In the end, that was why. I was afraid I'd lose you if I told you.
-[X] (Watch your gem and Mami's. Cleanse yours as necessary, ask Mami before cleansing if possible.)
- [X] You needed a friend, and I wanted to be that friend.
- [X] But it's more than that now. Madoka, Sayaka, Hitomi - it's not the same. They're my friends, but they're not you.
- [X] I want to tell you this because I want to stay with you.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
The appeal of both those votes is the simplicity and directness of the votes. Frankenvoting just waters them down.
EtchedSteel
*mumble mumble*
- Location
- Lima. Peru
[X] Julian Bradshaw
Well the current bandwagon opens with the equivalent of "I did it for your own good" which, true or not, is not really what we want to say. It's not really a frankenvote anyway, so much as it's Julian's vote, only with the opener replaced by something less condescending and more vulnerable.
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Julian Bradshaw
MSY Historian
- Location
- Local Group
@The Narrator
While I'm hesitant to change something people seem to like in its current form, what about an addition to the general approach instructions?
[] I wanted to help.
-[] (Watch your gem and Mami's. Cleanse yours as necessary, ask Mami before cleansing if possible. Reassure your genuine care and respect for Mami.)
- [] You needed a friend, and I wanted to be that friend.
- [] But it's more than that now. Madoka, Sayaka, Hitomi - it's not the same. They're my friends, but they're not you.
- [] I want to tell you this because I want to stay with you.
What does everyone think?
(As for concerns about the help line or the needed a friend line, I do believe that was key to why Sabrina chose Mami in the beginning. She will learn that Sabrina knew how vulnerable/fragile she was, and I want to be honest about how that influenced things. On a similar note, we'll get to the explanation that we were scared of hurting her or even her death, and we'll certainly tell her how sorry we are, but I think that should come after we've answered the more fundamental question.)
While I'm hesitant to change something people seem to like in its current form, what about an addition to the general approach instructions?
[] I wanted to help.
-[] (Watch your gem and Mami's. Cleanse yours as necessary, ask Mami before cleansing if possible. Reassure your genuine care and respect for Mami.)
- [] You needed a friend, and I wanted to be that friend.
- [] But it's more than that now. Madoka, Sayaka, Hitomi - it's not the same. They're my friends, but they're not you.
- [] I want to tell you this because I want to stay with you.
What does everyone think?
(As for concerns about the help line or the needed a friend line, I do believe that was key to why Sabrina chose Mami in the beginning. She will learn that Sabrina knew how vulnerable/fragile she was, and I want to be honest about how that influenced things. On a similar note, we'll get to the explanation that we were scared of hurting her or even her death, and we'll certainly tell her how sorry we are, but I think that should come after we've answered the more fundamental question.)
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I liked the vote how it was.
The problem is that your vote doesn't answer her question honestly. Sure, it's objectively true, but as the Incubators prove, just making objectively true statements doesn't mean you're being honest. To communicate fully, you also need to take into account how the listener will interpret what you've said, and that's where your vote causes problems.
In a nutshell, you say 'I wanted to help', which to you means that you think Mami is worth helping, and a good person, etc, but what Mami will hear is that we know better than her and think we're entitled to manipulate her for her own good. This opening line is critical, and will color the rest of the conversation; we can't afford to make this large a mistake.
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- Location
- Illinois
... My problem with the "I wanted to help" line is that we should probably explain why we wanted to help...
Which leads us back to the "drop the metabomb" vote I suggested. I'm completely serious about that vote, at least the starting parts of it. We could literally do something like
[] Because every image I had of you in my head when I woke up in that alley ended in your horrible death
[] And I couldn't risk Kyubey finding out about what I know
[] And because you matter to me (extend this w/ lines about how much Mami means to us, including the point that this affection has greatly increased over time)
[] But by the time I realized how much you matter to me, I'd already kept it a secret. And I was scared, so scared. I want to stay with you Mami, but if I told you... Yet, how could I keep it a secret when I wanted to stay?
And that would work, dammit. We didn't befriend Mami because she needed a friend, man! Every little lonely girl out there needs a friend. But in Mami's case, without a friend she was gonna fucking die!
That is why we befriended her. If Mami was lonely, but knew about the witchbomb and the lichbomb and wasn't friends with kyubey and was prone to surviving the month?
Our priorities would have been different in that scenario. We might have still befriended her, even gone to live with her... But if she'd not been a death risk we would have focused a lot more elsewhere.
...
If Mami hadn't been a death risk by way of not being a meguca?
We might have never interacted with her.
...
But if there'd been a scene in PMMM, where Mami-who-isn't-a-meguca commits suicide of her own free will out of loneliness?
We would have befriended her to prevent that.
The first thing I said in my essay was, word for word, "No lies."
I... We're lying to her in every single vote we've suggested. It's a small lie, even a tolerable one. But it's a lie. I won't support that.
I have other things that I have to do today. I'll drop in later, but for now
[X] Null
somebody tag everyone still voting for me please?
If somebody crafts a vote similar to what I just laid out, please tag me so I can vote for it.
Which leads us back to the "drop the metabomb" vote I suggested. I'm completely serious about that vote, at least the starting parts of it. We could literally do something like
[] Because every image I had of you in my head when I woke up in that alley ended in your horrible death
[] And I couldn't risk Kyubey finding out about what I know
[] And because you matter to me (extend this w/ lines about how much Mami means to us, including the point that this affection has greatly increased over time)
[] But by the time I realized how much you matter to me, I'd already kept it a secret. And I was scared, so scared. I want to stay with you Mami, but if I told you... Yet, how could I keep it a secret when I wanted to stay?
And that would work, dammit. We didn't befriend Mami because she needed a friend, man! Every little lonely girl out there needs a friend. But in Mami's case, without a friend she was gonna fucking die!
That is why we befriended her. If Mami was lonely, but knew about the witchbomb and the lichbomb and wasn't friends with kyubey and was prone to surviving the month?
Our priorities would have been different in that scenario. We might have still befriended her, even gone to live with her... But if she'd not been a death risk we would have focused a lot more elsewhere.
...
If Mami hadn't been a death risk by way of not being a meguca?
We might have never interacted with her.
...
But if there'd been a scene in PMMM, where Mami-who-isn't-a-meguca commits suicide of her own free will out of loneliness?
We would have befriended her to prevent that.
The first thing I said in my essay was, word for word, "No lies."
I... We're lying to her in every single vote we've suggested. It's a small lie, even a tolerable one. But it's a lie. I won't support that.
I have other things that I have to do today. I'll drop in later, but for now
[X] Null
somebody tag everyone still voting for me please?
If somebody crafts a vote similar to what I just laid out, please tag me so I can vote for it.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Just a reminder that our voting process here is going to be reflected in Sabrina's thoughts: i.e. Planning a long response, then deciding to go with something simple.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
In The Different Story.
Brutally honest time?
[ ] Tell Mami we came to live with her because we knew she might die if we didn't.
-[ ] And she knows how badly she reacted to us revealing The Soul Gems and Kyuubey. Yes, we fucked up, but we expected worse. Far worse. We still do, if Kyuubey finds out what we know.
[ ] It's hurt, hiding things from her. Not at first, no, we knew our knowledge would scare everyone away, so it was easy to justify it. But she, Mami, she's special, nicer, kinder, closer to us than anybody else. We like her, we can't help it.
-[ ] So she might not want anything to do with us now that she knows, and maybe we could have just stayed shut and everything would seem fine, and we wouldn't have to risk her pushing us away, and we would be able to keep living together... damn, we really want to live together with her, we want to stay here, but not if it meant deceiving her, not if it meant doing the same as Kyuubey.
-[ ] You want to be honest with her. And you want to stay with her, if she'll have you.
Mmm...
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Julian Bradshaw
MSY Historian
- Location
- Local Group
I think we're saying the same thing here. She needed a friend because without one she would die.
I believe saving Mami's life is closer to how we want to help her than why we want to help her. There's a ton of people who will die without our help, and we're trying to save them too, but we focused on Mami because we knew her, and because we care about her specifically for who she is. The question was "Why?", so I want to answer that first, but I'm not opposed to talking about the death and sorrow we've seen and want to prevent afterward.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
What would Mami feel if she thought Sabrina basically came into existance liking/caring about her and wanting to be her friend?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
*waves*
Hi. I'm new. Was content with lurking, but upon reflection, I think I wanna be at least peripherally involved. On that note:
Oi! @Kaizuki! Was something like this about what you had in mind?
[ ] Tell her that when we woke up, all we could see of her was her dying, horribly. We wanted to come live with her to prevent that.
-[ ] We didn't dare be open about it for fear of tipping Kyubey off.
-[ ] But we care for her, deeply. From the moment we met her, we did, but even we couldn't and didn't expect how much that would grow over time, to the point that it's nearly killing us to see her this way.
-[ ] "But by the time I realized how much you matter to me, I'd already kept it a secret. And I was scared, so scared. I want to stay with you Mami, but if I told you...yet, how could I keep it a secret when I wanted to stay?"
-[ ] Apologize. Don't bother with dignity, just bow your head, let down your walls and tell her how sorry you are for hurting her.
Saw no need to change the part in quotation marks. Were you hoping for an all-quotes plan (as in, scripting out what we say to her)? If so, I could mod this to do that pretty easily, it was actually my first impulse. Any feedback, from Kaizuki or elsewhere? This is my first post here, and I'm never quite sure what culture I'm stepping into on a thread like this that's too gigantic to read anything of outside of the threadmarks. So...not stepping on anybody, am I?
Hi. I'm new. Was content with lurking, but upon reflection, I think I wanna be at least peripherally involved. On that note:
Oi! @Kaizuki! Was something like this about what you had in mind?
[ ] Tell her that when we woke up, all we could see of her was her dying, horribly. We wanted to come live with her to prevent that.
-[ ] We didn't dare be open about it for fear of tipping Kyubey off.
-[ ] But we care for her, deeply. From the moment we met her, we did, but even we couldn't and didn't expect how much that would grow over time, to the point that it's nearly killing us to see her this way.
-[ ] "But by the time I realized how much you matter to me, I'd already kept it a secret. And I was scared, so scared. I want to stay with you Mami, but if I told you...yet, how could I keep it a secret when I wanted to stay?"
-[ ] Apologize. Don't bother with dignity, just bow your head, let down your walls and tell her how sorry you are for hurting her.
Saw no need to change the part in quotation marks. Were you hoping for an all-quotes plan (as in, scripting out what we say to her)? If so, I could mod this to do that pretty easily, it was actually my first impulse. Any feedback, from Kaizuki or elsewhere? This is my first post here, and I'm never quite sure what culture I'm stepping into on a thread like this that's too gigantic to read anything of outside of the threadmarks. So...not stepping on anybody, am I?
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
More to say when I'm not about to enter a tunnel, but when Mami says "Why?" I don't think she's asking "why did you become my friend? She's asking "Why did you decieve me all this time?" And I don't think that telling her that we only become her friend because we thought she'd die if we didn't will do her self esteem any favors.
- Location
- Illinois
Section one subsection two,
"Including lies of omission."
I don't know why you people are so hung up on this. "Let's answer this first" "lets not get all doom and gloom"
This is the answer. It is the full answer. Saying that she needed a friend is not the same thing as saying that we felt she needed a friend because of risks if she didn't go here! "I lied to you because you needed a friend" is not the same as "I lied to you because I had an interest in keeping you alive!" The one is not obviously moral, the other is given that she has a vested interest in life!
Doom and gloom, Mami can handle that. First section of the quest. She's not unfamiliar with death and negativity. Are we trying to, what, protect her from this? For another three posts? And if we don't explain it now, it'll be coming up anyways!
She wants to know why!
Stop denying her that!
Even if we take what you're saying as literal fact, Julian Bradshaw, what reason is there to omit how we want to help her? If we tell her, "we did it because we want/ed to help you," she's going to want to know how we thought doing this was going to help her!
It's this post or the next one!
All that we achieve by leaving this out is to weaken the impact of what we're saying and extend Mami's distress for another post. That's it.
- Location
- Illinois
Became, specifically became. Why do you think the vote then goes on to talk about how she's come to mean so much to us that we can't hide this from her. For the next three lines!
I don't think you actually read the vote. Your statement is incongruous with the vote's content.