No, but when the patient is competent, the medic has a duty to inform and obtain consent from the patient.
Mami is by no means mentally competent when it comes to these issues. As such an appropriate guardian should be appointed to decide, and as I don't think Homura or any other old Meguca is suitable, that pretty much leaves Sabrina.
 
Mami is by no means mentally competent when it comes to these issues. As such an appropriate guardian should be appointed to decide, and as I don't think Homura or any other old Meguca is suitable, that pretty much leaves Sabrina.

Mami is an emancipated minor. In the US that's age of consent for medical decisions. Anyone involved in the actual care is ineligible for guardianship anyway.
 
Easily. We tell her that we have to couch things in certain terms because Homura hasn't agreed to disclosure, and then we pass relevant information in those terms. It's not so hard to do, people, the media does it all the time.

"Relevant" information as determined by us. That's really not different from what we've been doing to her up until now.

At the very least, commit to asking Homura to give the go-ahead to tell Mami everything. Simply saying "not our secret" is an excuse if we haven't actually tried to get agreement from Homura to tell her. Frankly, Homura has invested a lot of chips Sabrina at this point. If we went to her and said, "I truly think it's a good idea to bring Mami into the loop on the time loops," I'd be surprised if she said no.
 
Does anybody know where the hell last IC night's convo is?

The story-only thread is your friend.

You exhale. "Alright, Mami," you say, smiling at her. You... you were considering telling her about yourself. How you knew about her - about everyone, and what's to come. Or what was to come, really, now that you've changed everything.

It can wait. It's not fair to her, if you did this now.

Mami smiles at you, packing up her textbook and notes. "I... I should be alright," she says, taking a breath. She nods decisively. "I'll be alright."

"Good," you say, beaming at her. "Would you like to shower first? Your hair takes longer to dry."

"I think so," she agrees, standing and twisting from side to side. She groans in relief as her spine pops. "If you're sure, Sabrina?"

"Of course," you say, motioning her towards the bathroom. "I'll be here."

"Alright," she says, smiling at you. She pads over to the bathroom, peeking back at you one last time before disappearing inside. You hear the water start up a few moments later.

You flop back on the sofa and stare up at the roof. "Blagh," you complain, directed at nothing in particular. It's been a long day - then again, they're all long days, you'd swear.

You mentally review what you need to do tomorrow. The most important thing is Oriko, really. You still need to see... what's going on with her Soul Gem. You might want to check for Sasa in the city, too.

You frown. Sasa could be a real danger, depending on how her powers work on you. And you do need to talk to Kyouko at some point, too, about Walpurgisnacht.

Hm.

Ah, well. You'll sleep on it, and hopefully wake up with a clearer mind.

For now, you click the television on and let the noise, some insipid drama, roll over you as your mind wanders. Briefly, you conside the state of your finances, such as they are - you're independently, if less than legitimately, wealthy, and that'll last you a good long while.

On the other hand... You've considered going global. You want to help all puella magi, after all. And that is going to take some financing. Heh. You could always get Oriko to play the stock market for you. What's the worst that could happen? You doubt that anyone could possibly pin anything on either of you.

As you finish that thought, the bathroom door clicks open, and you turn to see Mami emerging, eyes hunting for you. You wave at her, smiling, and her worry melts away into a warm smile. "Hi, Sabrina," she says.

"Hi, Mami," you say, beaming back at her.

She returns to towelling her hair, dangling wet and limp. "Your turn?"

"Yeah," you agree, hopping off the sofa and heading towards the bathroom. You leave the television on. "I won't take long, OK?"

"Alright," she says, smiling as you pass her.

You're as good as your word - you only take about ten minutes in the shower, and leave it to find Mami dressed in her pajamas, blow drying her hair in the bedroom. She smiles, and hands you the hairdryer.

Eventually, you're both ready for sleep. Mami, sitting on her bed, gives you an uncertain look that immediately clears up when you sit on the bed next to her and flop over. Mami joins you in lying down a moment later, switching the light off.

She cuddles against your back, hesitantly at first and then putting her arm over your waist when you don't pull away. "Good night, Sabrina," she whispers.

"Good night, Mami," you respond, smiling in the darkness and pulling the covers up over the both of you. "I'll wake up early, but you sleep in, OK?"

"Eh?" Mami asks.

"You have a test tomorrow, and I don't," you point out. And you're not sure you actually need to sleep, anyway. "I can manage breakfast and lunch myself. And I know-" you reach up to pat her hand, "-but it's just one morning, and I don't mind. OK?"

"I-" Mami seems conflicted, her voice sleepy.

"Just this one time. Let me make cook for you," you say. "And it's too comfortable to argue, right?"

"Mmmmnm," she says. "Alright. G'night."

"'night, Mami," you say, snuggling more comfortably under the covers, Mami nestled against your back.

This is nice. It... really is.

With a content sigh, you let yourself drift off.
 
We didn't know how to do it, and we were afraid of Kyubey finding out too...

Y'know what, this reasoning? It's flawed. We could have asked Homura to let us discuss it with Mami in timestop. I'm leaning towards "it was a mistake that we didn't" but people should feel free to challenge that, please -- ideas are good.
 
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I also don't think the law was designed to deal with infohazards.

It was, in US at least. There is an exception to informed consent on the books in the case of knowledge that would harm the patient. It's defunct IRL, but it is there and it would apply to the witchbomb.

But the Meguca world is not a civilized place where things are nice and tidy. And I'm not comfortable with denying these things completely to Mami. To Sayaka? Maybe, maybe. But the unfortunate truth is that lack of knowledge of the witchbomb is a security issue as much as knowledge of it is a health issue.
 
I also don't think the law was designed to deal with infohazards.
Not the laws in this franchise, at least. Althoug, I'm not sure if setting the crust and upper mantle on fire is any better in this scenario.

I've come to genuinely care deeply for you
I suspect this can be worded better. As it is, it implies we had an ulterior motive and changed our mind.

But the Meguca world is not a civilized place where things are nice and tidy. And I'm not comfortable with denying these things completely to Mami. To Sayaka? Maybe, maybe. But the unfortunate truth is that lack of knowledge of the witchbomb is a security issue as much as knowledge of it is a health issue.
That's where our knowledge enters the equation. In vacuum, you'd be right. Knowing how she will react, more caution is needed.
 
But the Meguca world is not a civilized place where things are nice and tidy. And I'm not comfortable with denying these things completely to Mami. To Sayaka? Maybe, maybe. But the unfortunate truth is that lack of knowledge of the witchbomb is a security issue as much as knowledge of it is a health issue.

Yes. We keep saying how worried we are about Kyubey, It could contact Mami at any time and say, "I have some information you might like to know. Would be you interested in hearing where Witches come from?" It could do that telepathically.
 
[X] Because I've come to genuinely care deeply for you, to the point that I don't know what I'd do without you.
-[X]I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I never wanted to hurt you...I was scared...scared about hurting you, and scared you'd reject me.
-[X] If Mami reacts to this in any way, let her react fully and then break back to voting, unless her reaction involves running away, in which case break back to voting without letting her react fully. Give her enough of a pause to react if she wants, but don't wait overly long.
 
[X] Because I've come to genuinely care deeply for you, to the point that I don't know what I'd do without you.
-[X]I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I never wanted to hurt you...I was scared...scared about hurting you, and scared you'd reject me.
-[X] If Mami reacts to this in any way, let her react fully and then break back to voting, unless her reaction involves running away, in which case break back to voting without letting her react fully. Give her enough of a pause to react if she wants, but don't wait overly long.

Oh shit I posted that WHOOPS lol still a WIP.
 
Y'know what, this reasoning? It's flawed. We could have asked Homura to let us discuss it with Mami in timestop. I'm leaning towards "it was a mistake that we didn't" but people should feel free to challenge that, please -- ideas are good.
That's a bit of a narrow definition of 'how to explain'. There's more to it than the place, and the Kyubey-reason mention is separate from the lack of a way to do it. I don't think the questers back then had any idea about telling it that they could definitely agree on. The way you actually put the words of the explanation, and then gather the nerve to go through with it are also important.

Also, I feel your vote is a bit lacking. Here's a quick rundown.
[] I've come to genuinely care deeply for you, to the point that I don't know what I'd do without you. That's why I'm here, now, confessing this to you without anyone forcing me to do so.
...I feel like saying it's slow, but that would be just me being silly about it :V. But honestly, this runs into the issue I see and mentioned earlier. Namely, the fact that it skirts around the issue again. We are in this mess for deceiving Mami, and it would be rather ironic if we attempted to solve the problem with a watered down version. Sure, the wording is honest to my understanding, but it still avoids the actual reasons for the breakdown.
-[] If Mami reacts to this in any way, let her react fully and then break back to voting, unless her reaction involves running away, in which case break back to voting without letting her react fully. Give her enough of a pause to react if she wants, but don't wait overly long before
I'm against letting Mami go on with this, something I outlined too. Giving her time to construct her own reality of the events will probably end only in tears, so it's far more important to take the initiative in explaining, and only take a break if Mami is getting overwhelmed.
[] I've had reasons for keeping this from you in the past, particularly that I believe Kyubey will actively try to have me killed or worse if he gets wind of it.
Nope. Telling Mami that Coobs might kill us is not an idea I can get behind at all. For one, this will serve to worry Mami even more for no reason in a time she doesn't know what to believe in. Second of all, substance first, theories second. Third, telling Mami that we had 'reasons' is not exactly comforting for her.
[] But I could have had
...WIP?
 
Sigh. These are even more relevant than I expected. See Mami's behavior towards Sabrina.

Mami struggles weakly in your hug, trying to pull back. You keep your arms around her, though, not letting her go, and she eventually sags against you, shuddering sobs shaking her body as you continue stroke her back gently.

"I..." you swallow. "I knew, Mami. I don't know how, but I knew, right from the start. I..." you laugh bitterly. "For all that I knew, Mami, I had no idea how to tell you the truth, about the Soul Gem... or Kyuubey."

Mami's sobbing quietens - she's listening, at least.

"I knew you thought of Kyuubey as a good friend-" her only friend, "-and I didn't want to hurt you like... this. So I... pretended. I know they're horrible... and I had no idea how to tell you."

You sigh, and continue. "I'm sorry for not telling you sooner, for hiding this from you... but I'm your friend, Mami, from the beginning. Because I wanted to help, and because you are you, good, and kind, and caring."

"I'm sorry," you say again. "But... no matter what, I still want to help you. I'm still your friend, Mami, if you can forgive me."

A long silence, as your heart plummets.

"Y-yo-" Mami croaks. "I-I... I w-want to b-believe you. A-and y-you're a good p-person and I-I- please, S-Sabrina, I, I-"

"Shh," you hug her tightly. "Always, Mami. I'll be here, if you let me."

"Y-yo-" She struggles weakly, pushing herself away from you, and, wincing, you let her. Her eyes are wild even as tears course down her face, pale and drawn. "B-but, bu- y-yo- knew a-and you k-knew me and y-you-"

Her Soul Gem is a poisonous abscess of corruption, Grief bubbling into the world.

You suck in a worried breath, and reach out, hand and powers moving in synchronization. Grief, viscous and ropy, streams from Mami's Soul Gem ring, whorls and eddies forming as the bilious mass accretes into your compressed spheres. Grief floods from your own Gem to join the billowing cloud, and you empty out both your Soul Gems.

Mami flinches with a quiet whimper, leaning backwards.

Away from you.

It's... it's the first time Mami ever looked at you like that.

Not even that very first time, when you and Mami found out, together, that you could do it.

And she sags, shock rippling across her face.

"M-mami," you whisper, your own voice cracking. "I was afraid. So-" you swallow again, "so scared. I didn't know how you'd take it. I didn't w-want to hurt you. I was scared, and I'm sorry. So, so sorry."

Mami's shrunken into a wretched, miserable huddle, hugging her legs to her chest as wild, frantic eyes stare at you.

"I'm sorry," you repeat. "I... wanted to find another way. A better way. B-but..." You make a helpless little gesture with your hands. "I-I- know it doesn't mean much, but I'm sorry."

You take a deep, shuddering breath. "B-but," you say. "I meant every word I said. About wanting to be your friend, about everything I wanted to do, to help you."

A keening noise from Mami, like an injured animal, as she sways slightly, tears still dripping in slow, fat droplets down her face. Her eyes, puffy and red, stay on your face, searching desperately for answers to questions unknown.

It hurts, seeing her like this.

"Mami," you say. "Mami, please... even if you can't forgive me... please stop hurting yourself like this. Please."

You fall silent, and try to meet Mami's eyes.

She's avoiding looking at you.

When she speaks, her voice is ragged and raw. "I-I... G-g-go a-awa-"

She doesn't even finish it, bursting out in loud, renewed wails as she hugs her knees even tighter, a small, wretched ball of misery.

Her Soul Gem is still darkening rapidly.

God this is so fucked up.
 
Credit goes to Sayaka for the new ideas. :)

[x] "I... I have come to care for you, Mami. You are very close to my heart. I never wanted to hurt you. I don't want to lose you. I don't know what I would do without you."

[x] Ask her to hear you out.

-[x] "I... I was scared to tell you. At first, I... I went with you because I knew you were a good person who needed a friend... which was why when you offered to let me live with you, I accepted. I knew you were a wonderful person who deserved better. Who deserves better. At the start, I just wanted to help. Fix things and save people. You know me.
-[x] "It... None of that was a lie, Mami. I... Learning from you. Helping save people with you. Being with you. That mattered to me. It matters to me."
-[x] "At first, I was still figuring things out and... didn't know how to tell you. I was scared and didn't know how to say it. It was just... too much, and I was worried about Kyubey finding out. Then there were days when there was just no time, and you were so hurt after you found out Kyubey had been lying to you that I couldn't stomach the idea of potentially making things worse. Of hurting you like that again. And it was easy to let it just stay untold, because in the end, when Kyubey was out of the way and I could have made time to tell you, the real reason why I allowed myself to put it off was because I was scared. Of hurting you, like I just did again. Of confessing that I hadn't told you all this time..."
-[x] "I know I should have said something sooner but... I just didn't know how to tell you. It was tearing me up inside..."

[x] Apologize. Plead for your case.
-[x] "I'm sorry, Mami. I am so, so sorry, more than I can say, for not telling you sooner. You... You matter to me. More... P-probably more than anyone else does. I want... I want you to be happy. I swear. That's the truth. The whole truth. I want you to be happy because you're Mami and you deserve to be."

[x] Ask her, beg her for forgiveness, for the chance to help, to set things right, for that is all you ask, all that you want. To see her happy. To enjoy life with her. For she is dear to your heart. Someone you deeply care for.

[x] If at any point, Mami visibly deteriorates or reacts...
-[x] "Mami? Please, talk to me? I... I don't want to see you hurt like this. Please... I know I don't deserve it, but please? I'm not like...him. I promise. Seeing you like this... hurts me so much..."

[x] Ask permission to cleanse at any point if her gem starts looking bad again. Beg if you have to. You're wiling to humble yourself for her sake.
-[x] If her gem gets really bad, just cleanse, no matter what.

[x] Keep your own gem clean. Continuous cleansing.

[x] With Mami's permission, continue the vote in abeyance.
Edited part is in yellow.
 
That went both better and worse than I expected.

"I'm not," you whisper. "I'm not. I- I didn't know you. I didn't- I'm not like it. I had no idea about you, I had no idea you could cook everything under the sun I didn't know you were in the archery club I didn't know you liked to play video games." You're babbling at this point. You force yourself to take a shaky breath. "I didn't know we'd get along so well. I- I didn't know we could be friends."

"F-friends," Mami whispers. Tears streak down her face, her breath stuttering gasps in her throat. "I-I- S-sabrina- you- K-kyub- I-"

Her Soul Gem. You can feel it, throbbing as it fills. Grief surges, closing on the halfway mark.

There are a lot implications you can get out what Sabrina says here, if you're ignorant. Many of them are not good.

Mami's gem filled up really fast. The only time I remember something happening like that happening in the anime, was when Homura lost hope completely in the fight against Walpurgisnacht.

Mami stumbles to her feet. She's transformed and swaying, eyes wide enough to show the whites all around. Manic and staring and terrifed.

Her hands are empty.

She manages a step away. Toward the window. Her eyes don't leave yours.

And she stops, rocking in place. She falls.

A wailing sob. On her hands and knees, she scrabbles back to you, grabbing you roughly with shivering hands. She pulls you close, hugging you like a giant bolster.

Despite getting ribboned, this is still an improvement over how she reacted when we told her the truth about soul gems.:V
 
It comes to mind that we could resolve this by just actually dropping the metabomb proper. Left a vote with Ugo on that possibility, I'll probably get criticized thoroughly and we'll see what happens with that. If I change vote that drastically I'll tag everyone who voted for me when I do it.
 
"I didn't know we'd get along so well. I- I didn't know we could be friends."

"F-friends," Mami whispers. Tears streak down her face, her breath stuttering gasps in her throat. "I-I- S-sabrina- you- K-kyub- I-"
"W-why," she whispers, shaking you roughly. "Why? W-why- y-you- why?"

Kaizuki makes a good point about not trying too hard to interpret the "Why?" one way or the other, especially since Mami probably can't narrow it down herself, but I think at the core she's asking why we were manipulating her. What we wanted out of her, with all of our false kindness.

And, at least in the beginning, all we wanted for her was what we want for everyone.

[X] I wanted to help.
[X] (Watch your gem and Mami's. Cleanse yours as necessary, ask Mami before cleansing if possible.)
- [X] You needed a friend, and I wanted to be that friend.
- [X] But it's more than that now. Madoka, Sayaka, Hitomi - it's not the same. They're my friends, but they're not you.
- [X] I want to tell you this because I want to stay with you.


(I do not think we should say something like "I have come to care for you." This implies we didn't care about her at first, presumably because we were callously manipulating her like Kyubey, but that isn't true!. We've always cared about Mami, just as we care about Homura, and Madoka, and everyone else.)

Edit, to quote myself from later: My vote isn't meant to be direct quotes for Sabrina to say. In this situation - when it comes to Mami - Sabrina is probably more separate from SV than at any other time. This is her relationship. If we don't force her to do otherwise... she'll let her feelings show.
 
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Credit goes to Sayaka for the new ideas. :)

[x] "I... I care for you, Mami. You are very close to my heart. I never wanted to hurt you. I don't want to lose you. I don't know what I would do without you."

[x] Ask her to hear you out.
-[x] "I... I was scared to tell you. At first, I... I went with you because I knew you were a good person who needed a friend... which was why when you offered to let me live with you, I accepted. I knew you were a wonderful person who deserved better. Who deserves better. At the start, I just wanted to help. Fix things and save people. You know me.
-[x] "It... None of that was a lie, Mami. I... Learning from you. Helping save people with you. Being with you. That mattered to me. It matters to me."
-[x] "At first, I was still figuring things out and... didn't know how to tell you. I was scared and didn't know how to say it. It was just... too much, and I was worried about Kyubey finding out. Then there were days when there was just no time, and you were so hurt after you found out Kyubey had been lying to you that I couldn't stomach the idea of potentially making things worse. Of hurting you like that again. And it was easy to let it just stay untold, because in the end, when Kyubey was out of the way and I could have made time to tell you, the real reason why I allowed myself to put it off was because I was scared. Of hurting you, like I just did again. Of confessing that I hadn't told you all this time..."
-[x] "I know I should have said something sooner but... I just didn't know how to tell you. It was tearing me up inside..."

[x] Apologize. Plead for your case.
-[x] "I'm sorry, Mami. I am so, so sorry, more than I can say, for not telling you sooner. You... You matter to me. More... P-probably more than anyone else does. I want... I want you to be happy. I swear. That's the truth. The whole truth. I want you to be happy because you're Mami and you deserve to be."

[x] Ask her, beg her for forgiveness, for the chance to help, to set things right, for that is all you ask, all that you want. To see her happy. To enjoy life with her. For she is dear to your heart. Someone you deeply care for.

[x] If at any point, Mami visibly deteriorates or reacts...
-[x] "Mami? Please, talk to me? I... I don't want to see you hurt like this. Please... I know I don't deserve it, but please? I'm not like...him. I promise. Seeing you like this... hurts me so much..."

[x] Ask permission to cleanse at any point if her gem starts looking bad again. Beg if you have to. You're wiling to humble yourself for her sake.
-[x] If her gem gets really bad, just cleanse, no matter what.

[x] Keep your own gem clean. Continuous cleansing.

[x] With Mami's permission, continue the vote in abeyance.
Edited the first part.
 
[X] "Because I was scared."
[X] Keep talking with Mami, maintain as steady a tone as we can. But if we are about to start crying, then don't try to hold it back too much, just enough so we can keep on talking.
[X] Cleanse yourself, no grief spiraling here.

[X] Apologize to Mami for not telling about this earlier. We never wanted to hurt her, yet we somehow end up doing it without even meaning to.
-[X] Tell Mami that she means the World to us, and that she is our most precious friend and partner. We care about her more than anyone else.
-[X] Plead that she listen to what we have to say. Tell her that we're not Kyubey, we are not like him! We are not using Mami. Never will, and never have.
-[X] If she's ready to hear it, continue that when we first saw her, we could recognize her as Mami, the smart and kind veteran Magical Girl, and a defender of Justice...
--[X] ...But also as someone who was lonely, had been through much, and needed a friend for herself. We believed she deserved to be happy. So our thoughts upon seeing her were that we could- we needed to help her as much as we could. She deserved better! As such, when Mami asked us to move in with her, we were happy to accept.
-[X] Yet it didn't take long for it to become something more. We still genuinely wanted to help her and be there for her... and we wanted to be there with her for its own sake. It wasn't only about helping anymore, but because the more we got to actually know her, the more we cared about her as our best friend and partner.
--[X] But we knew we needed to tell her about this. At first we were still confused about everything, and tried to figure things out. We didn't know how to tell her. And as time passed, we became afraid of telling. We didn't know how to do it, and we were afraid of Kyubey finding out too... Then, there were the days when there was just no time. And then she was just so hurt after learning about Kyubey's lying, we couldn't bear the thought of making things even worse for her. It became just easier to let it remain a secret, because we were just too afraid of hurting her more... like we did here.
[X] Apologize again, for not telling Mami sooner. But tell her that to this thoughtless idiot she is the most precious friend and partner, and someone we would never hurt on purpose. We genuinely care about her, always have.

[X] If Mami gets to alarming levels in grief, ask her to cleanse. Be insistent that she not let her Gem fill up even if she has to use a grief seed. But if the worst comes to pass and she absolutely refuses to listen to a suicidal degree, then bite the bullet and cleanse her anyways.

IMO, I kind of agree with the general gist of his. But it kind of feels like it rambles on way too much. Like that the first several line should be moved to the back. She's falling apart and asking for an explanation, so we should just get to it.
 
So, an alternative to anything like the votes we've seen so far. This is going to raise a lot of flags for people who have repeatedly had to deal with newcomers doing things like suggesting that we drop the witchbomb, but I'd ask that people consider it and its consequences before immediately dismissing it.

I'm so fucking done with all the lies and the half truths and the careful skirting and the... I don't know. Even now, all the reasons we're suggesting, all the things we're considering or rejecting...

None of it really speaks to the heart of the matter. At all. And the fact that we're having so much trouble with this, that Mami is having such a hard time with this? It speaks to that lack of truth being involved.

... We're going to get to this part anyway. Mami Tomoe wants to know why we've done what we've done. Wants to know why we lied to her.

Enough dancing around. Let's tell her. Let's explain what would drive White Knight Sabrina to lies and skullduggery.

[] Take a couple seconds to steel yourself. Keep cleansing yourself and Mami as needed. No matter how she reacts to it.
[] Mami, every image of you that was in my head when I woke up in that alley ended with you dying horribly.

[] There's not many separate... instances, for lack of a better word. The information in my head... it's divided into them. Each one presents itself like a story. It makes sense, I guess... they say that the human mind thinks in stories, you know? In each one, you, Sayaka, Kyouko, and Madoka all die before the end of this month. Not necessarily in that order, not always for the same reasons.
[] In each one, Mitakihara City ends the month obliterated. A burning pile of wreckage full of corpses. In some, Mitakihara is the least of the damages, and the whole world is obliterated.
[] Kyubey prefers it when that happens. He... works to make it happen.
[] I don't exist in any of them.
[] In the end, everything I have done since I woke up in that alley has been to prevent all of that...
[] Except with you. I... I'm a person too, Mami. We don't survive without companionship. At first with you it was the same as the others, I was going to make sure you got out of this okay. But... you were so kind to me. And I kept finding myself just... enjoying your presence.
[] More?
 
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The thing is, it wasn't just about Mami. Especially at the beginning. We had kept the truth from all of them to get them to trust us and better help them. Because they're all suffering from their various problems and were likely to all die or worse by the end of the month. That was the intention at least, regardless whether or not it was a good idea.
 
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