"Had no other choice" and "have no regrets" are not synonymous. Even if it was necessary, I think many of us regret hurting her and deceiving her. (I wasn't in the thread at the time, so I can't technically "regret" actions I have no part in, but it's still rather sad.) Certainly, I think Sabrina is currently regretting the course of action that led to her being on the floor in ribbon bondage while Mami is emotionally self-destructing
See, in my book regret means something else.

If you regret something, and you had the chance of acting differently, you take it.

We are certainly responsible from what we did, and what we did makes us sad, but I think regret is not the right word.
 
[x] Kaizuki

If I have misread the problem, this still functions properly as a leadin
I think that this convinces me. Even if it means that this conversation takes a week IRL instead of a day, I'd strongly prefer taking this one line at a time so we don't get wrapped up in contingency after contingency and autopilot ourselves off a cliff because we didn't read a situation right and overreached.
 
[X] "Because I was scared."

We simply do not have sufficient information for that to be a safe continuation.

One theory I am considering is that Mami interpreted this:

Mami makes a tiny, choked noise. Her white knuckled grip on your arm doesn't slacken.

"I, I-" you stutter. "I knew about you, I- I didn't know you. And not everything, I, I-"

"Y-you-" Mami shakes her head, tears squeezing from the corner of her eyes. "N-no, no, n-not you too-"

To mean that we knew some secret about her that she's kept from us for one reason or another. For instance, it's entirely possible that she's killed before. Or that she's committed some past travesty. Or that she perceives herself as having done some cosmic wrong, which in turn makes it her karmic duty to suffer alone. And then when we dropped this line:

"I didn't know we'd get along so well. I- I didn't know we could be friends."

She assumed that that meant that we couldn't be her friend because of whatever that wrong is.

And we say that we were scared?

Mami: ... Of me?

[x] Kaizuki


I think that this convinces me. Even if it means that this conversation takes a week IRL instead of a day, I'd strongly prefer taking this one line at a time so we don't get wrapped up in contingency after contingency and autopilot ourselves off a cliff because we didn't read a situation right and overreached.

Literally my foremost reason for suggesting this. Every in-depth vote is presuming a specific definition of "why?" And that's not safe. There are too many possibilities here.

I'm going to lengthen my vote slightly and adjust the wording, but maintain the same point and shortness.
 
@Kaizuki

How about something less... wordy?

And could add something about our fears that this situation might happen even worse than it is.

2nd is probably good idea, 1st idk I don't know how much it matters, I put in genuinely care deeply because I want to make clear the magnitude of the emotion. Ugo suggested that it should be a little deeper than it is so I'm open to suggestions there.
 
I'm just dropping by to say this:
I don't think Mami wants us to apologize. Rather, we need to show her we're grateful to her. Grateful that she took us in, gave us a warm home. Grateful that she's our friend.

It's a concept I've encountered many times in anime, manga and visual novels, and has influenced me personally, to the point that I'm legitimately surprised you are doing so much apologizing.

Until someone makes a more complete vote with that in mind,
[X] Kaizuki
 
2nd is probably good idea, 1st idk I don't know how much it matters, I put in genuinely care deeply because I want to make clear the magnitude of the emotion. Ugo suggested that it should be a little deeper than it is so I'm open to suggestions there.
It depends on how deep you want to go, I guess.

Because I've come to really like you, because you're more important to me that I ever thought you'd be. I don't know what I'd do without you, Mami, so I don't want to keep on lying. Don't want you to leave me.

[Q] I'm letting meguca die out just so I can have Mumitime. That's how much I like my Mumi.
 
It depends on how deep you want to go, I guess.



[Q] I'm letting meguca die out just so I can have Mumitime. That's how much I like my Mumi.

Ugo mainly wants to further emphasize that we're not QB is my impression. He's... probably right about that?

"Because I've come to really like you, because you're more important to me that I ever thought you'd be. I don't know what I'd do without you, Mami, so I don't want to keep on lying. Don't want you to leave me."

I could get behind this. My use of genuine was as an affirmation that we're being honest, which may or may not be necessary -- if she wants to verify that she'll sniffle a lot and then ask if we really mean it.

I think Ugo is suggesting more of a

"Because I've come to genuinely care deeply for you, to the point that I don't know what I'd do without you. I'm not him, Mami, I have done nothing to manipulate you in a harmful manner and although it took me too long to do so I'm here, now, confessing this to you without anybody forcing me to do it. Because I care about you and lying to people you care about is wrong."

But he might also just generally want a longer vote?
 
We simply do not have sufficient information for that to be a safe continuation.
Honestly, I think the point you're missing is that we don't want to dilly-dally around her by skirting around with our answer. Mami is in a state of mind where she needs reassurance ASAP. The more time spent not on actually getting around to it, is time that she has to spiral and form more of her own conclusions, no matter how flawed they might be.

This is why your vote doesn't really appeal to me. It dances around the issue of us having breached Mami's trust and caused her hurt with an almost distraction of an answer. I understand the need to play it safe, but I don't think this is the way to do it. I think it doesn't ultimately accomplish much, and at worst might even trigger Mami more with the vagueness.

(I wouldn't be surprised if what matter more here was our tone and style, rather than any specific words. Emotionally turmoiling people are not exactly the best at processing information.)

Mami makes a tiny, choked noise. Her white knuckled grip on your arm doesn't slacken.

"I, I-" you stutter. "I knew about you, I- I didn't know you. And not everything, I, I-"

"Y-you-" Mami shakes her head, tears squeezing from the corner of her eyes. "N-no, no, n-not you too-"
Emphasis added. I have hard time imagining this being about some sort of terrible secret Mami wants to keep from us. Rather, given what we know about her, there are explanations that require far less assumptions and guesswork, while also making sense. Here are the two possibilities I consider the most likely.

1.) Mami was hurt by Kyubey lying to her for two years, and him using her to his advantage without remorse. "Not you too", hints that Mami is drawing parallels with something, or a whole lot of somethings. With us having admitted to knowing about her all along, it's not exactly difficult to see where Mami is coming from with her fears. The one person she had begun to trust in place of Kuybey essentially did the same thing in her eyes.

2.) Mami is afraid of another person leaving her. This is something that would play well with your theory of her having something to fear us finding about, due to it giving us a 'reason' to leave her. However, notice how Mami ends up cradling Sabrina's wrapped form in desperation? If she is even afraid of us knowing something about us, she still considers us leaving her the more terrifying prospect, even if she doesn't necessarily admit it in her state of mind.

Due to these, I'd say the priority should be at actually calming down Mami as soon as possible, instead of trying to find out the exact explanation from what is probably a whole sum of them.
 
I insist, if we are explaining our motives, we should point out we did what we could so she wouln'd die or worse.
 
Yeah my earlier criticism of your vote was crap. Here's what I really don't like about it:

X] "Because I was scared."
[X] Keep talking with Mami, maintain as steady a tone as we can. But if we are about to start crying, then don't try to hold it back too much, just enough so we can keep on talking.
[X] Cleanse yourself, no grief spiraling here.

[X] Apologize to Mami for not telling about this earlier. We never wanted to hurt her, yet we somehow end up doing it without even meaning to.


Too slow, too weak. "I did it because I was scared"? "I'm sorry"? "I didn't mean to hurt you but I did"? You're starting with that? No. That's playing into her expectations.

-[X] Tell Mami that she means the World to us, and that she is our most precious friend and partner. We care about her more than anyone else.
-[X] Plead that she listen to what we have to say. Tell her that we're not Kyubey, we are not like him! We are not using Mami. Never will, and never have.

Good. But why the hell is it after all that other crap?

-[X] If she's ready to hear it, continue that when we first saw her, we could recognize her as Mami, the smart and kind veteran Magical Girl, and a defender of Justice...
--[X] ...But also as someone who was lonely, had been through much, and needed a friend for herself. We believed she deserved to be happy. So our thoughts upon seeing her were that we could- we needed to help her as much as we could. She deserved better! As such, when Mami asked us to move in with her, we were happy to accept.

Great!

-[X] Yet it didn't take long for it to become something more. We still genuinely wanted to help her and be there for her... and we wanted to be there with her for its own sake. It wasn't only about helping anymore, but because the more we got to actually know her, the more we cared about her as our best friend and partner.
--[X] But we knew we needed to tell her about this. At first we were still confused about everything, and tried to figure things out. We didn't know how to tell her. And as time passed, we became afraid of telling. We didn't know how to do it, and we were afraid of Kyubey finding out too... Then, there were the days when there was just no time. And then she was just so hurt after learning about Kyubey's lying, we couldn't bear the thought of making things even worse for her. It became just easier to let it remain a secret, because we were just too afraid of hurting her more... like we did here.
[X] Apologize again, for not telling Mami sooner. But tell her that to this thoughtless idiot she is the most precious friend and partner, and someone we would never hurt on purpose. We genuinely care about her, always have.

Even better!

I could vote for you if I thought there wasn't a large risk of Mami jumping out the damn window midway through your lead-in.

Edit: Some of it is also just general paranoia. We tried to do the whole story setup and it didn't work, I'd like to play it super safe and just utterly break the super-negative view she's jumped towards, both immediately and totally.
 
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[X] Because I've come to genuinely care deeply for you, to the point that I don't know what I'd do without you.
 
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That sounds cute, but you are not explaining a thing.

"Because I like you" is not an explanation, is an excuse. Is an excuse to do what we did, snd an excuse to do so many things it loses al worth as an explanation.

What we did: we denied her information.
Why we did it: because she was too fragile to know it.

I believe we should tell her that we like her, that we don't want her to abandon us, that we want the best for her, and that we know telling her what we know will hurt her. A lot.

And then we should ask for trust, and an opening to keep explaining what exactly we know.
 
That sounds cute, but you are not explaining a thing.

"Because I like you" is not an explanation, is an excuse. Is an excuse to do what we did, snd an excuse to do so many things it loses al worth as an explanation.

What we did: we denied her information.
Why we did it: because she was too fragile to know it.

I believe we should tell her that we like her, that we don't want her to abandon us, that we want the best for her, and that we know telling her what we know will hurt her. A lot.

And then we should ask for trust, and an opening to keep explaining what exactly we know.

Yeah I know hold on thinking again.
 
Guys, stop apologizing. It's only going to reinforce that we did something wrong and that we betrayed her in some way. We didn't. She's being a tad hysterical right now, and apologizing is only going to make her think that we betrayed her trust.

What we actually need to do is put the matter in terms that she knows and is comfortable with--that our foreknowledge was like someone who knew her really well had told us about her. That we cared about her from the start, and that all of our feelings for her are and have always been genuine. The main reason we didn't tell her before is because we had no idea how we knew and couldn't think of a way to explain it to her without freaking her out.

Okay, we can apologize for causing her this distress right now, after we've covered the stuff above. But leading off with an apology is only going to make things worse.

(Also, "getting on our knees and begging" is nonsensical, since Mami has us wrapped in ribbons on the floor.)
 
I could vote for you if I thought there wasn't a large risk of Mami jumping out the damn window midway through your lead-in.
I don't think Mami's exactly in a shape to crawl up on a chair, much less do that.

And to my surprise, I'm actually serious about that :confused:. She faltered when she tried the last time, and now she's using Sabrina as her personal hugpillow/punching bag(?) for her grievances. But as for the actual issues:

Yeah my earlier criticism of your vote was crap. Here's what I really don't like about it:

[] "Because I was scared."
[] Keep talking with Mami, maintain as steady a tone as we can. But if we are about to start crying, then don't try to hold it back too much, just enough so we can keep on talking.
[] Cleanse yourself, no grief spiraling here.

[] Apologize to Mami for not telling about this earlier. We never wanted to hurt her, yet we somehow end up doing it without even meaning to.


Too slow, too weak. "I did it because I was scared"? "I'm sorry"? "I didn't mean to hurt you but I did"? You're starting with that? No. That's playing into her expectations.
Slow and weak? I might grant you the weak, because that kind of thing is rather subjective in the end, but slow is not exactly the word I feel is descriptive here. 4 simple words to start with is not slow. Us being afraid of Mami is something there's no indication of. But saying, "because I was scared" gets straight to the point, and does it quick while also being honest.

This whole mess started by us essentially lying to Mami, so whatever we do it needs to be sincere. Telling that we were afraid answers her questions, that essentially boil down: 'why didn't you tell me'. And it's why we didn't tell her, it's not exactly difficult to see the uncertainty about telling her in the thread.

Furthermore, us having been afraid of Mami('s reaction) is not something she could have reasonably expected. It doesn't play to her expectations but quite the opposite: chances are that she is going to grab onto it as a safety rope. Again, I'll refer to the way she's clinging to us. Despite us being the source of her hurt, she's still clinging to us for... well, comfort might not be a good word, but it will have to do. She doesn't know what to do, not yet, and giving her a simple but honest reason immediately provides an avenue for her thoughts to escape to. Saying we were scared leaves it at that, and thus gives us the chance to expand upon it.

Now, as for the next to []'s, about the tone and cleansing, those are for during the talk. Those can be easily moved or reworded if it feels like they waste time or make things slow, no problems there.

On the other hand, on some level I can see how us being scared could be taken the wrong way too. One possible idea might be to remove the start and cut straight to the following parts?

Namely, this:
[] Apologize to Mami for not telling about this earlier. We never wanted to hurt her, yet we somehow end up doing it without even meaning to.
It's there to establish that we're genuinely sorry about everything that we know that we fucked up. Furthermore, it serves to establish the rest of the lines with the important, actual substance. Well, that, and it's probably for the better if we show genuine regret at our actions, before starting to sing praises of Mami and explaining things to her. We did hurt her here, we just admitted to keeping things from her. Not apologizing and acknowledging what we did, and cutting straight to excuses would be callous.

However, I am open to improvements, so please do share if you have an idea of how to start things off better. The way out of this mess is to constantly polish and improve upon our plan of actions.
 
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We've been deceiving her since the moment we met. Considering how Kyubey, her only constant companion since her parents died, had been deceiving her since the moment they met, it's not surprising that she'd react this way. Emotions are messy like that.
I wouldn't really call it deception. Not disclosing everything you know about someone the moment you meet them is normal. Furthermore, we already told her a while back that there were things we knew that we weren't really ready to tell her yet (whether it's because we don't really know how to explain it, or because it's really uncomfortable for us to talk about, or because it would just hurt her), so it's not totally out of left field.

Also, all of our feelings towards her have been genuine, and our actions have been basically genuine as well. We've only feigned ignorance about a few things that have come up (like Kyouko, her loneliness), and we've been helping her with those things regardless.
 
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To ask forgiveness is to say we were wrong, and we did bad.

Should a medic ask forgiveness after they break the ribs of a pacient during CPR?
 
It's there to establish that we're genuinely sorry about everything that we know that we fucked up. Furthermore, it serves to establish the rest of the lines with the important, actual substance. Well, that, and it's probably for the better if we show genuine regret at our actions, before starting to sing praises of Mami and explaining things to her. We did hurt her here, we just admitted to keeping things from her. Not apologizing and acknowledging what we did, and cutting straight to excuses would be callous.

Except we didn't fuck up and we don't genuinely regret it. Sabrina acted for what she believed and continues to believe are good and justified reasons.

Also, if we're going to come clean, let's come clean. I still think we need to tell her about Homura's time-looping once this immediate emotional crisis is past. We have to, because the time loop and out knowledge of the different outcomes it produces are driving pretty much all of Sabrina's planning. Just as a for instance, the fact that we know that "witch-bombs" can make Mami literally murderous is the reason we've been keeping that from her. The fact that Kyubey, in the future, expressed a lack of concern for the earth being destroyed, is part of why we distrust him as much as we do. The fact that the time loops have given Madoka insane potential, that her contracting could have world-shaping consequences, is critical need-to-know information. How can we possibly ask Mami to give advice and act as a partner in planning future actions without knowledge of the loops and their results?

We can maintain quiet about Homura's personal motivations to try and preserve her privacy as much as possible, but there is no way that Mami can usefully understand why Sabrina has been acting like she has without knowing about the time loops.
 
To ask forgiveness is to say we were wrong, and we did bad.

Should a medic ask forgiveness after they break the ribs of a pacient during CPR?

No, but when the patient is competent, the medic has a duty to inform and obtain consent from the patient.

Also, if we're going to come clean, let's come clean. I still think we need to tell her about Homura's time-looping once this immediate emotional crisis is past. We have to, because the time loop and out knowledge of the different outcomes it produces are driving pretty much all of Sabrina's planning. Just as a for instance, the fact that we know that "witch-bombs" can make Mami literally murderous is the reason we've been keeping that from her. The fact that Kyubey, in the future, expressed a lack of concern for the earth being destroyed, is part of why we distrust him as much as we do. The fact that the time loops have given Madoka insane potential, that her contracting could have world-shaping consequences, is critical need-to-know information. How can we possibly ask Mami to give advice and act as a partner in planning future actions without knowledge of the loops and their results?

Easily. We tell her that we have to couch things in certain terms because Homura hasn't agreed to disclosure, and then we pass relevant information in those terms. It's not so hard to do, people, the media does it all the time.
 
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