Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Hell, a lot of us weren't even around back then.
Balduran
Smuggest Plague-Bearer
- Location
- a quiet, rainy place
I know I wasn't. Hence going back and re-reading the original discussion.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Personally, I don't have that kind of time, hence why I'm just ghosting other people's ideas. I'm not going to be one of the most involved in this; I just can't be.
- Location
- Illinois
Reasoning for vote change:
Stuff said to poptart:
I've found that I can't just leave this to get work done without putting something down. Gonna steal your framework, @PoptartProdigy.
[X] Originally, because Kyubey couldn't know. You were my friend, and it hurt keeping things from you. But I felt that I didn't have a choice.
-[X] Break back to voting if Mami interjects.
[X] Later, when he was gone... I've considered you a friend since the moment we met, Mami. But you became more. When Kyubey left -- maybe I should have told you then. But I couldn't bring myself to do it. I knew that because I'd kept it from you, it would hurt you, and I couldn't stand it.
[X] Eventually, that was why I told you, also. I want to stay with you, Mami. And from the moment that I recognized that, I've known that I would have to tell you. How could I stay with you without telling you?
Listing people to tag in a moment.
@Nolrai @LendvaV @Briefvoice @universalperson @Script Mak3r @DB_Explorer @nekcihc @LostDeviljho
Stuff said to poptart:
I've found that I can't just leave this to get work done without putting something down. Gonna steal your framework, @PoptartProdigy.
[X] Originally, because Kyubey couldn't know. You were my friend, and it hurt keeping things from you. But I felt that I didn't have a choice.
-[X] Break back to voting if Mami interjects.
[X] Later, when he was gone... I've considered you a friend since the moment we met, Mami. But you became more. When Kyubey left -- maybe I should have told you then. But I couldn't bring myself to do it. I knew that because I'd kept it from you, it would hurt you, and I couldn't stand it.
[X] Eventually, that was why I told you, also. I want to stay with you, Mami. And from the moment that I recognized that, I've known that I would have to tell you. How could I stay with you without telling you?
Listing people to tag in a moment.
@Nolrai @LendvaV @Briefvoice @universalperson @Script Mak3r @DB_Explorer @nekcihc @LostDeviljho
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Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
I thought a love confession was "Daisuki".
@AuraTwilight , I hope you don't mind me asking, but since your native language is japanese, What words are used in a confession?
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I'm not referring to any specific vote, nor do I know what vote you're referring to. (EDIT: At the time I posted the post that you're quoting, you had not posted a vote. I'm aware that you've posted one now.) I was addressing the general direction of discussion in the thread, which had been moving towards how to explain to Mami why we became her friend, even though I don't think that's the question she's currently asking us.
EDIT: Deleted my asking what the hell you were talking about because I figured it out.
I'm not fluent by any means, but as I understand it, there are multiple words in Japanese that could translate to "love" in English. "Daisuki" (literally "big like") is probably the one you'd see when one teenage anime character confessed to another, and it can be ambiguous whether or not it's romantic. Whereas I'm led to believe that "Aishiteru" is considered an extremely strong declaration of eternal love that is very rarely used. And I'm not quite sure where "koi" fits in....
Apologies if I've misstated anything. As I said, I am in no way fluent. I couldn't string a sentence together in Japanese, but I've picked up a few words or phrases here and there from watching subtitled anime, and those particular phrases tend to get a lot of attention when used, so they tend to stick in the mind.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
[x] Because you care - started out caring, cared, still care, and will continue to care - about her, and you hurt when she does.
-[x] And you knew that telling her was going to hurt and you kept finding reasons to put it off like "kyubey will kill everybody if it finds out" and "she has to have time to recover from the last one".
-[x] You started out caring about everybody and wanting to help everybody, and now that you actually know people, instead of having knowledge of them, you care about Mami most of all.
-[x] And you knew that telling her was going to hurt and you kept finding reasons to put it off like "kyubey will kill everybody if it finds out" and "she has to have time to recover from the last one".
-[x] You started out caring about everybody and wanting to help everybody, and now that you actually know people, instead of having knowledge of them, you care about Mami most of all.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
BTW, Kaizuki, now that I have read your vote I do think that it has merit. I'm not sure I'd lead with the "I foresaw your death unless I befriended you!" thing, but it does express our feelings for Mami and explain why we did what we did. If it comes down to your vote or Julian's, I'd definitely prefer yours.
[ ] Because you care about her--you always have and you always will--and you hate seeing her get hurt.
-[ ] And you knew that telling her was going to hurt, so you kept finding reasons to put it off. Like "Kyubey will kill everybody if it finds out" and "she has to have time to recover from Kyubey's betrayal".
-[ ] Since you lost your memory, all you've wanted to do was to help save everybody. But as you've come to know Mami, you've found that you want to help her most of all.
Also not bad. Covers the "we care about her" and "why we kept this a secret" points that I think are most important. But something about the wording feels... off... to me. Like, something about the grammar throws me off. Hard to say exactly what. What do you think of this?
[ ] Because you care about her--you always have and you always will--and you hate seeing her get hurt.
-[ ] And you knew that telling her was going to hurt, so you kept finding reasons to put it off. Like "Kyubey will kill everybody if it finds out" and "she has to have time to recover from Kyubey's betrayal".
-[ ] Since you lost your memory, all you've wanted to do was to help save everybody. But as you've come to know Mami, you've found that you want to help her most of all.
I don't think that was what we meant to say. But... well, the vote was worded in a way that was prone to misinterpretation. There was a reason I didn't vote for it.
- Location
- Editing my last post
So here's me, after such a long time lurkin', doing what I can to contribute like a good number of others. (Huh. So many idle thoughts suddenly being brought to light when Mami is in danger. Go figure, right?)
Now I'm really not sure how much I can contribute. But I really want to try and help, even if that's just by providing a bad idea that helps everyone else to further refine a good one. So I'm not going to submit this idea as a vote unless I later think of ways to refine and streamline it. I do think having an extra head thinking out loud could help though.
[partialexamplevote]
-Honesty is what you deserve, and I honestly care about your safety, about your happiness, about you, but I couldn't figure out a way to balance it all without keeping you in the dark about what I've seen. There are so many half truths I can think of, but you don't deserve half lies.
-I've wanted to tell you about things I've seen so you could protect yourself from them, but they're such horrible things and I care so much I've been afraid to explain them, afraid of admitting I was hiding them.
-I've been afraid of making you so upset you'll push me away forever, so I tried to protect you myself. But no matter how I feel or what I think is best, you deserve honesty.
[/partialexamplevote]
Right. So. The spirit of this entire event is, to the best of my understanding, SV deciding to tell Mami about Sabrina's metaknowledge, Sabrina deciding that it's time for honesty, and finding a way to keep Mami safe, happy, and Sabrina's friend. (I'm hesitant to use pronouns like "our" since I think I've voted a grand total of once before.)
I don't think my idea achieves that entire goal, which is one of several reasons I don't feel I should make it a vote. But I would like to think it's at least passable as far as transitioning into the larger picture. All of the important points are hit in four sentences. Sabrina hasn't been entirely honest, cares about Mami on several levels, wants the best for Mami even if Sabrina herself isn't the best for her*, still wants to stay with Mami, and Sabrina is now trying to come clean about the motives behind her actions.
Other things that I haven't yet had solid ideas to address include: actually explaining what Sabrina knows about the future, exactly how certain about the future Sabrina can say she is, exactly how much should be said at once with Mami potentially interrupting and derailing things, and what should be done about the chances of Mami doing things like refusing cleansing or attempting to leave--at least, before the full story is on the table, but even after that it would probably not be acceptable to let her leave Sabrina's immediate vicinity no matter Mami's wishes because, y'know, likely death sentence and all.
Even in a partially complete state, this post ended up kinda long. Kind of feel bad saying so much after contributing so little in the past. I should totally start fixing that!
Hopefully I'm helping!
Slight edit for accuracy.
Another edit to rearrange things slightly to improve flow and prioritize delivery of certain bits.
Yet another edit! Righto, that's all I've got time for until tonight. My thinking tab has, like... probably more content than my original post now. Whoops.
* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH poor Mumi...
Now I'm really not sure how much I can contribute. But I really want to try and help, even if that's just by providing a bad idea that helps everyone else to further refine a good one. So I'm not going to submit this idea as a vote unless I later think of ways to refine and streamline it. I do think having an extra head thinking out loud could help though.
[partialexamplevote]
-Honesty is what you deserve, and I honestly care about your safety, about your happiness, about you, but I couldn't figure out a way to balance it all without keeping you in the dark about what I've seen. There are so many half truths I can think of, but you don't deserve half lies.
-I've wanted to tell you about things I've seen so you could protect yourself from them, but they're such horrible things and I care so much I've been afraid to explain them, afraid of admitting I was hiding them.
-I've been afraid of making you so upset you'll push me away forever, so I tried to protect you myself. But no matter how I feel or what I think is best, you deserve honesty.
[/partialexamplevote]
Right. So. The spirit of this entire event is, to the best of my understanding, SV deciding to tell Mami about Sabrina's metaknowledge, Sabrina deciding that it's time for honesty, and finding a way to keep Mami safe, happy, and Sabrina's friend. (I'm hesitant to use pronouns like "our" since I think I've voted a grand total of once before.)
I don't think my idea achieves that entire goal, which is one of several reasons I don't feel I should make it a vote. But I would like to think it's at least passable as far as transitioning into the larger picture. All of the important points are hit in four sentences. Sabrina hasn't been entirely honest, cares about Mami on several levels, wants the best for Mami even if Sabrina herself isn't the best for her*, still wants to stay with Mami, and Sabrina is now trying to come clean about the motives behind her actions.
Other things that I haven't yet had solid ideas to address include: actually explaining what Sabrina knows about the future, exactly how certain about the future Sabrina can say she is, exactly how much should be said at once with Mami potentially interrupting and derailing things, and what should be done about the chances of Mami doing things like refusing cleansing or attempting to leave--at least, before the full story is on the table, but even after that it would probably not be acceptable to let her leave Sabrina's immediate vicinity no matter Mami's wishes because, y'know, likely death sentence and all.
Even in a partially complete state, this post ended up kinda long. Kind of feel bad saying so much after contributing so little in the past. I should totally start fixing that!
Hopefully I'm helping!
Slight edit for accuracy.
Another edit to rearrange things slightly to improve flow and prioritize delivery of certain bits.
Yet another edit! Righto, that's all I've got time for until tonight. My thinking tab has, like... probably more content than my original post now. Whoops.
* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH poor Mumi...
My suggestion does next to nothing to describe metaknowledge and as before mentioned isn't viable as a complete vote. Additionally, being vague about "things I've seen" could very quickly slip out of control if not immediately addressed, so hummm.
[thinkingoutloudaboutmetaknowledgevoteideas]
-From the moment I found myself disoriented in that alleyway -- that feels like such a long time ago -- I knew about things I shouldn't possibly ever have found out about. But I did. I knew about Mitakihara, I knew about magical girls, about Walpurgisnacht, I knew the names and faces of people I'd never met or heard of before.
-In everything I'd seen, there was no scenario where nobody I suddenly knew of died. And that's just it, Mami, I only knew of people, the magical girls most likely to try stopping Walpurgisnacht and the people they spent time with. But their dreams? Their hopes, the way they felt, their thought processes? I could only speculate.
-I didn't know if I would be able to become a part of that fight, or if I would have to help from the sides, but no matter what I wanted to -- had to help! I know a few faces and the things they said and did, but not who they were. I couldn't believe it would be safe, for me or for any of you, to tell you about what I've seen. And I was more afraid of letting somebody get hurt because they couldn't do something alone when they didn't have to be alone, than I was of keeping a secret I wasn't -- I'm still not -- sure anybody would believe.
--If any or all of that passes well enough to continue safely beyond that. Heck, maybe this portion would be better on its own.
--What I saw... It was almost like, like knowing the plot to a story, or having a script. I knew a huge disaster was coming. I knew that I could help stop it with the right wish. I knew of people, but I didn't know about them. I knew what they would do, but rarely why. I knew how magical girls worked, and that almost none of them could actually accept the full consequences of their wish.
--But even that wasn't enough for me to make any real plan! Because I didn't just have the script, I had several, and no idea which one was the right one, no idea if this was some alternate timeline where some or all of them had already happened, no idea if they had all already happened, or if none of them would. The only two assets I had were my wish and my foreknowledge, but I had no idea how accurately I could use either of them.
--My goal has always been to help people, as many people as I could. It started focused around the people I saw, and all the innocent people who just happen to live here, it expanded to include new magical girls I'd never known about, and all the while I was getting to know you as people -- getting to know you, Mami.
--I had outlines, rough sketches, but those weren't anything compared to the real deal. That's what I meant, by not being sure if we could be friends. I didn't know you liked [insert detail here], so what else don't I know? What if I make a mistake? If I say something that offends you, or let slip too much of what I know, and just because I wasn't careful enough somebody got hurt... or worse...
--So... I was scared. And I still am. But, there it is. My big secret.
--[probably insert some reassurances about relationships and being within hugging distance here]
[/thinkingoutloudaboutmetaknowledgevoteideas]
... There are an unfortunately large number of instances where phrasing there was very specific. Phrasing that covered a general concept, like a disaster equating to Walpurgisnacht, but also potentially something such as Kriemhild Gretchen, or how magical girls working references both the lichbomb and the witchbomb, but without context only alludes to the bomb Mami already knows about.
I don't know how comfortable I am with allowing that, because if metabombing is happening then it sure as hell shouldn't have to happen twice. But is it really safe to tell Mami about witches? About the reason Madoka making a wish would lead to a [WORST END] in the vast majority of cases?
Alternatively, is now the best time to tell her about witches and their origins? She's already so focused on Sabrina, information like that could be partially accepted while she's simply to distracted, tired, distraught, or any combination thereof to really care. Then comprehension can be reinforced later, after she's already had the chance to consider those ideas a bit.
Or she could decide that hey, if I'm basically already a monster, I could both throw away this pain and save lives if I just break this little gem!
[thinkingoutloudaboutmetaknowledgevoteideas]
-From the moment I found myself disoriented in that alleyway -- that feels like such a long time ago -- I knew about things I shouldn't possibly ever have found out about. But I did. I knew about Mitakihara, I knew about magical girls, about Walpurgisnacht, I knew the names and faces of people I'd never met or heard of before.
-In everything I'd seen, there was no scenario where nobody I suddenly knew of died. And that's just it, Mami, I only knew of people, the magical girls most likely to try stopping Walpurgisnacht and the people they spent time with. But their dreams? Their hopes, the way they felt, their thought processes? I could only speculate.
-I didn't know if I would be able to become a part of that fight, or if I would have to help from the sides, but no matter what I wanted to -- had to help! I know a few faces and the things they said and did, but not who they were. I couldn't believe it would be safe, for me or for any of you, to tell you about what I've seen. And I was more afraid of letting somebody get hurt because they couldn't do something alone when they didn't have to be alone, than I was of keeping a secret I wasn't -- I'm still not -- sure anybody would believe.
--If any or all of that passes well enough to continue safely beyond that. Heck, maybe this portion would be better on its own.
--What I saw... It was almost like, like knowing the plot to a story, or having a script. I knew a huge disaster was coming. I knew that I could help stop it with the right wish. I knew of people, but I didn't know about them. I knew what they would do, but rarely why. I knew how magical girls worked, and that almost none of them could actually accept the full consequences of their wish.
--But even that wasn't enough for me to make any real plan! Because I didn't just have the script, I had several, and no idea which one was the right one, no idea if this was some alternate timeline where some or all of them had already happened, no idea if they had all already happened, or if none of them would. The only two assets I had were my wish and my foreknowledge, but I had no idea how accurately I could use either of them.
--My goal has always been to help people, as many people as I could. It started focused around the people I saw, and all the innocent people who just happen to live here, it expanded to include new magical girls I'd never known about, and all the while I was getting to know you as people -- getting to know you, Mami.
--I had outlines, rough sketches, but those weren't anything compared to the real deal. That's what I meant, by not being sure if we could be friends. I didn't know you liked [insert detail here], so what else don't I know? What if I make a mistake? If I say something that offends you, or let slip too much of what I know, and just because I wasn't careful enough somebody got hurt... or worse...
--So... I was scared. And I still am. But, there it is. My big secret.
--[probably insert some reassurances about relationships and being within hugging distance here]
[/thinkingoutloudaboutmetaknowledgevoteideas]
... There are an unfortunately large number of instances where phrasing there was very specific. Phrasing that covered a general concept, like a disaster equating to Walpurgisnacht, but also potentially something such as Kriemhild Gretchen, or how magical girls working references both the lichbomb and the witchbomb, but without context only alludes to the bomb Mami already knows about.
I don't know how comfortable I am with allowing that, because if metabombing is happening then it sure as hell shouldn't have to happen twice. But is it really safe to tell Mami about witches? About the reason Madoka making a wish would lead to a [WORST END] in the vast majority of cases?
Alternatively, is now the best time to tell her about witches and their origins? She's already so focused on Sabrina, information like that could be partially accepted while she's simply to distracted, tired, distraught, or any combination thereof to really care. Then comprehension can be reinforced later, after she's already had the chance to consider those ideas a bit.
Or she could decide that hey, if I'm basically already a monster, I could both throw away this pain and save lives if I just break this little gem!
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Good edits on the grammar - I banged it out really quick while I was waiting for code to compile - but I'm wondering why you changed "cared most" to "wanted to help most". Maybe both?
"Since you've lost your memory" versus "from the beginning" actually looks now like it's cruft that we don't need.
How's this?
[x] Because you care about her--you always have and you always will--and you hate seeing her get hurt.
-[x] And you knew that telling her was going to hurt, so you kept finding reasons to put it off. Like "Kyubey will kill everybody if it finds out" and "she has to have time to recover from Kyubey's betrayal".
-[x] All you've wanted to do was to help save everybody. But as you've come to know Mami, you've found that you want to help her, and that you care about her, most of all.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I think it's not bad at all.
- Location
- South Africa
I'm happy with the change, but if others don't want it changed, I won't insist on it.
Firstly, if we hadn't seen Mami dying, do you really think we'd have abandoned her? I don't. As such, while us seeing her dying is involved, it is not the primary reasoning and pretending that it was is deceitful in itself. Secondly, the order in which we make true statements can alter Mami's impression into a false one which is also deceitful. Opening in the way you suggest will give Mami the impression that she was a charity case we humoured out of pity, which isn't true at all and Mami shouldn't be allowed to believe that. Why did we want to help Mami? Because she'd made a positive impression on us in our mind. That's the most honest impression we can give Mami and it's what she needs to hear. If Mami wasn't in any danger at all, we'd still have wanted to befriend her, because she's actually pretty awesome. Mami should know that's what we think and it should be the very next thing she finds out.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Yeah, I reread the update where we choose to live with Mami a couple weeks back, and "Mami is nice, Homura is scary as fuck" was the reasoning presented in the text.
Oh right, forgot about this in the shuffle. I think it's an improvement, since it's got us saying at least something about how much we care about her.
Still have my previous concerns about the "you needed a friend stuff", as well as the possibility that she'll respond to the first line with, "HOW IS LYING TO ME HELPING ME?" and going medieval on our ass.
- Location
- South Africa
[]Because I wanted to join the wonderful person I saw in my memories!
[]The person I saw was amazing and I could not pass up the chance to help her!
[]But I also didn't want her to leave me or be hurt, so I stayed quiet, because I was a coward who procrastinated out of fear
[]But I know you deserve the truth, so please let me come clean and make this right
[]I never wanted to hurt you
Okay, how's an approach like this?
[]The person I saw was amazing and I could not pass up the chance to help her!
[]But I also didn't want her to leave me or be hurt, so I stayed quiet, because I was a coward who procrastinated out of fear
[]But I know you deserve the truth, so please let me come clean and make this right
[]I never wanted to hurt you
Okay, how's an approach like this?
Well, I for one imagined Sabrina belting the whole thing out in one breath, leaving Mami twitching between Super Drama Mode and wanting to palm her face and say "Oh, Sabrina."
Sabrina grins sheepishly. "What, you think I had a coherent plan? It's me, Mami; I can barely plan a picnic a day in advance without getting sidetracked and distracted a dozen times."
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I'm not answering this because I don't support dropping a confession in this context. It's manipulative and would sour the emotion.
- Location
- Illinois
Answer it for the man's curiosity. Nobody is confessing here, it'd be ridiculous and poisonous.
Ignores the fact that we had valid reasons for not telling her, the phrasing as much as it is an accurate summary made me laugh my ass off, it just... I dunno, I rated it funny because I laughed when I read it. I try to make that my funny-giving policy.
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- Location
- Illinois
I have an active vote which is being adjusted regularly, partially due to conspiracy influence. I believe I currently remain in the lead but I am not certain. A tally would be appreciated.
@Onmur
The meaning got corrupted during the social.
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- Location
- South Africa
Fair enough. That makes me feel better. That said, I don't think the fact that we had valid reasons is relevant yet. Let's show her how we feel without coming across as trying to foist off responsibility or make excuses. Let's own up to what we did without trying to hide behind rationalisations. We hurt her. It sucks. We know it and we want to fix it. That is what needs to come across clearly. We can explain our valid reasons when they are in context and Mami has calmed down a bit so she understands the context. I don't want to come across as making excuses. I want to come across as someone wanting to fix what they've done. Because it's more accurate and better for Mami.
Honestly, if this is the criticism, it's actually making me more confident in my suggestion. And if Mami finds the phrasing funny or worth of an "Oh, Sabrina!" that's better still.
- Location
- Illinois
I don't believe that when it gets translated into social by firn it's going to go well at all.