Or to be more accurate, Sabrina definitely cares about what Mami wants.
It's just she's weighing those wants against what she thinks will be best for Mami.

Ex: take the case of canon Sayaka. She wants to contract, and heal violindude. But what she wants and what's best for her are decidedly different things, and Sabrina is definitely of the mindset "stop blueberry from contracting".

The problem, then, is drawing the line of when it's okay to ignore what people want for what's best for them.
 
Or to be more accurate, Sabrina definitely cares about what Mami wants.
It's just she's weighing those wants against what she thinks will be best for Mami.

Ex: take the case of canon Sayaka. She wants to contract, and heal violindude. But what she wants and what's best for her are decidedly different things, and Sabrina is definitely of the mindset "stop blueberry from contracting".

The problem, then, is drawing the line of when it's okay to ignore what people want for what's best for them.
Might not be the best example. There's a pretty clear line in the example: Sayaka doesn't know what the contract entails, and her wants are confused in general. Some things that are plain wrong from the start, that makes stopping the whole thing from happening clearly good.

Here, what we have is a picnic. A way to spend the day with friends, and have fun. If we change this, we're not really stopping a bad thing from happening. We're risking ruining something that's only good.
 
I think this picnic should be a time for us, Homura, Madoka, Nagisa, Sayaka and Mami to get together and have a nice relaxing event, before we do more serious stuff.
 
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I'd argue that we're risking "good stuff" for "even MORE good stuff" including Mami-Kyouko friendship and having both the little sisters in one place, but yeah, I agree that we can put it off for another day.
My point is that in this case we would be risking something that's only good. We're not trying to save anybody from anything, only to extend something that will already work pretty well for it's intended purpose.

Maybe if the chances of the reconciliation happening were actually really really high, then it could be clearly correct to attempt this.

As it is, I think the line is pretty clear and we'd be standing on the wrong side to try, unless things improve immensely in the next few days.

Maybe we could, as a separate thing, try to get Nagisa and Yuma to meet, first? Kyouko didn't seem that opposed to the idea.

Wasn't Nagisa coming too?
She is.
 
Might not be the best example. There's a pretty clear line in the example: Sayaka doesn't know what the contract entails, and her wants are confused in general. Some things that are plain wrong from the start, that makes stopping the whole thing from happening clearly good.
Yeah, my reading is that Sayaka doesn't precisely want to contract to heal violindude, she just wants to heal violindude. Contracting is just the best way she can see to do that, so we can easily do what's best for her by giving her a better way to achieve what she wants.
 
Yeah, a different, more private venue would be better. That's not quite the same as putting it off. A picnic isn't going to change what Kyouko thinks of Mami and vice versa. That's just wishful thinking.


The problem, then, is drawing the line of when it's okay to ignore what people want for what's best for them.

This quite frankly only applies if what they want is obviously dangerous or leads to dangerous behavior.
 
My point is that in this case we would be risking something that's only good. We're not trying to save anybody from anything, only to extend something that will already work pretty well for it's intended purpose.
Pretty much this, I reckon. If getting Mami talking to Kyouko isn't going to be an uphill struggle, it doesn't need to be at the picnic, even if it's happening in roughly the same timeframe; if we need the excuse of the picnic to approach it, the odds of the picnic going horribly wrong as a result are too high.
Homura raises her eyebrows at you, holding the pistol by its barrel and presenting it to you. It's a... distinctive weapon, from the exposed trigger group transiting into what you know is a five round magazine, to the top-exposed bolt action slide, gliding onwards to a matte, blackened barrel. A shortened barrel.

You stare at the equally sawn down birch stock of the sawn down Mosin-Nagant rifle. A bolt action rifle converted to a pistol that fires 7.62mm rounds.

"It's an obrez," Homura notes quietly. She pronounces it correctly, too. She begins to reach into her shield again. "Do you want something smalle-"

"N-no!" you squeak, taking -well, snatching, really- the pistol from her and turning it over in your hands. An obrez. It's on the larger end of concealable, but it's something you can fit into your bag if you remove some of the marbles. It's not like you'd expect to carry anything but a pocket pistol or something in your, well, pocket. "Where did you even get this?"

Homura shrugs with one shoulder. "There's a magical girl who shows up infrequently."
Ivan Chesnokov; secret meguca?
 
Homura shrugs with one shoulder. "There's a magical girl who shows up infrequently."
Ivan Chesnokov; secret meguca?
Maybe we can meet her? After all this is over, if Homura's got enough data on this girl, we could track her down? Maybe her wish is something we can accomplish, and frankly, I want to know this girl that thinks a sawed off Mosin-Nagant makes a good Magical Girl weapon. :)
Yeah, my reading is that Sayaka doesn't precisely want to contract to heal violindude, she just wants to heal violindude. Contracting is just the best way she can see to do that, so we can easily do what's best for her by giving her a better way to achieve what she wants.
Not even that. She just wants Kwyjibo for herself. She just doesn't understand her own feelings.

... Can we blame Kyubey for not understanding people? Yes, we can, because KB, but I mean...
 
Maybe we can meet her? After all this is over, if Homura's got enough data on this girl, we could track her down? Maybe her wish is something we can accomplish, and frankly, I want to know this girl that thinks a sawed off Mosin-Nagant makes a good Magical Girl weapon. :)

Not even that. She just wants Kwyjibo for herself. She just doesn't understand her own feelings.

... Can we blame Kyubey for not understanding people? Yes, we can, because KB, but I mean...
Well, Kyubey knows enough about people to deceive them, but I can see him not getting the full concept of emotions.
 
Black boxes. You press this button, that thing happens.

You say these words at this time to this meguca, you get energy rewards.
That is likely how it works for Kyubey, he may not see emotions the way we do, but he knows how to use them to get the result they desire. Which means that they get more energy to stop entropy.
 
"WHAT IN FUCK IS DONE TO THIS POOR RIFLE?"
IVAN CHESNOKOV said:
OBREZ PISTOL CONVERT OF MOSIN NAGANT RIFLE IS ONLY MODIFICATION OF WEAPON THAT DOES NOT MAKE SERGEI MOSIN TURN LIKE PIG ON SPIT IN GRAVE. YOU SAW DOWN BARREL AND STOCK OF MOSIN, IT BECOMES OBREZ. SIMPLE ENOUGH FOR EVEN STUPIDEST OF CAPITALIST HICK TO UNDERSTAND.
So it was written, so it shall be. :V
 
That sounds like a bad idea unless all parties know and agree about it.
Well, yeah, obviously we wouldn't make it a surprise. The point is that having them meet during the cleansing trip instead of the picnic would give us a lot more control. Since it would just be the four of us, there wouldn't be any extra people confusing things. It might be a bit awkward, but it would at least give Mami and Kyouko a chance to meet again as part of a quick cleansing rather than as part of a long social event. Small steps.

And even if it did go poorly, it wouldn't ruin the picnic.
 
Hypothesis: Dedolere is related to the feathers in Oriko's vision.
The procedure is simple, here.

1.) Pull out soul gem and grief. Prepare to infuse grief into soul gem in sufficient quantities to cause witchdom.
2.) Ask Oriko about the results of the action if carried out.
3.) Put the grief away.

Expected results are either a normal vision or a feather end. The first is indicative of the unknown threat being distinct from Dedolere. The second indicates a correlation between the appearance of Dedolere and the appearance of the unknown threat.​

This experiment can be carried out at any point when we are with Oriko and not with Mami.[/spoiler]
"I... Oriko, I've thought of something to help learn about the feathers from your visions," you say out loud. You consider adding that you're pretty sure that whatever you learn will be enough to convince you to not actually witch out, but on the off chance Oriko's mindset affects what she sees you decide not to. Besides, she should be able to figure it out.

"Oh, we're making gyoza today!" Mami informs you.

You suppress the urge to smile. "Dumplings? That sounds great! I'm going to see how much of that grief I've been carrying with me I can force into my soul gem."

"But first," you say to Oriko, "did you use the grief seeds?"

"Ah, I'll do my best. It's pork mince with chives, I hope that's alright?" Mami replies. "Wait... what?!?"

"Yes, I did. I was... forced to," Oriko says.

"Hmm. You've still got it, I hope?" you ask rhetorically, frowning minutely at the 'forced to.' You can sense the grief seeds on her person - one of them's pretty full. "The grief seed, I mean."

You respond to Mami. "Of course it's alright," you say. "I want to find out how the grief affects Oriko's visions."

Oriko nods, reaching in her pocket and withdrawing the filled grief seed. About three quarters full, if you're any judge. It's probably for the best that you did give her one, after all.

"Ah, isn't that dangerous, Sabrina?" Mami inquires. "You're always so careful to take any grief out of our gems, even when there's only a little."

You regard the grief seed thoughtfully, wicking away the grief with an effort of will. Billowing streamers of grief flow into the room from outside, joining the wisps from the seed. While you do so, you reply to Mami. "With my power, what could possibly go wrong?"

Oriko's sea-green eyes open wide and she pales as you collapse the grief cloud into a purple speck that screams 'witch!' to your senses and hover it next to your soul gem. If it weren't beneath her carefully maintained dignity, you'd expect her to call you 'witch-girl.'

"Oriko, have you learned anything about those 'feathers' in your visions at all?" you ask.

"Not really. And they're not so much in my visions as... replacing them," Oriko slowly says, tears welling up in her eyes. Had she really become so dependent on her visions so quickly? Or...

"Sa-Sabrina!" Mami's... panicking? "No! I don't think Miss Mikuni's visions are worth risking your life. Promise me you won't!"

"Mami, I -"

"Now, Kirika!" Oriko sobs. Steadying, savagely, "Get her!"

Faster than you've ever felt it, far faster than you had believed possible, you feel Kirika charge and unleash her magic. As you lose control of the grief mote, it billows out into a cloud surrounding you. In the caustic darkness you hear Kirika say, "I love this plan, Oriko! I'm excited to be a part of it!" as she tackles you low from behind.

Disoriented, the only thing you perceive beyond your pain for the next few moments is the sound of the mansion's grounds being crushed underneath the constellation of your remaining condensed grief. The cloud swirling above your head begins to coalesce into a vaguely humanoid shape while Kyubey shares Mami's wordless panic with you.

The last thing you hear is Oriko's voice, now cold and brittle. "You made this necessary," followed by the thud of the door slamming behind them.

"Mami, I don't underst -"

=====​

"Sabrina! Oi, Sabrina! Wake up!"

You're sitting on the ground, slumped against the rough wall of a building. You feel horrible, and somehow wrong. "Kirika?" You try to stand up, but you can't find your balance. Pushing yourself up the wall, about halfway your hair catches between you and the wall, jerking your head left, sending you back down to the asphalt. Your soul gem flies from your grasp and skitters across the pavement. "What's happening? Also, ow." Not even your voice sounds right.

"No time to explain everything. Your ojou needs you." She takes a step closer, leans down, and grabs your hand, pulling you to your feet, before turning and retrieving your gem. Multiple emotions chase each other across her features before they settle for a moment on rage, and she delivers a full-force slap to your face. "And that's a start for what you've done to mine. Oriko's gone, and you're all I have left of her."

You try to bring your free hand to your face, but it somehow never makes it there. The pieces finally start to click and, "I'm in Oriko's body? But... gone?"

"Oh! I almost forgot," she says, incongruously chipper, "Oriko said that," and here her speech changes again to mimic Oriko's careful, cultured diction. "'Time is of the essence if you wish to prevent Miss Tomoe from meeting Candeloro.' Whatever that means." Serious Kirika: "It better not be anything too dangerous. I won't forgive you if you let Oriko get hurt!"

=====​

Yeah, let's not. Oriko's kind of known for acting on what her visions show her, damn the personal cost. And Dedolere is an existential threat to reality.

Also, dammit Firn. Now I need to wait for morning. But hey, now it's longer and hopefully a bit more polished.
 
Hmm... Ok So I have read this here from yesterday until now without looking at the discussion so I might be repeating familar things here, so bare with me.

1) The feathers seem to me almost obviously to be Sabrina's... In fact it occurs to me that Sabrina as a witch would be pretty much the ultimate in scary monsters, and many of the limits which she runs into are because she doesn't have access to the fugue mentality which drives a witch's power. As a witch... she'd effectively be able to shut down pretty much anything Witch or magical girl related... and might even be able to cannibalize other witches for greater and wider scope of power.

2) It seems to me also obvious that trying to 'heal' the Grief-seeds is the wrong approach because really you don't 'Heal' the soul gems, you heal the bodies which they're connected to... Instead I can't help but think maybe with the clear seeds what you should be trying to do is make bodies made of grief and/or magic for them, then connect them (the ones in the clear state) to the bodies.

3) The scene in Sabrina's barrier makes me think of Sayaka's transformation scene into Octavia. Essentially the gem takes over, the body hangs limp and the new 'self' which is the main body and the barrier encompasses the gem which then discards the old body and the old identity. Familiars and everywhere inside of the barrier are part of the 'mind' of the witch, the main body just being a functional focus point around which its 'thoughts' and 'dreams' enfold. Create your perfect world...

4) Has it ever been thought of or proposed that we should try to make familiars of our own?



Now one of the most interesting things is basically the existence of the 'Grief Spiral' which is basically the defining factor point at which a Magical girl crosses over into witch-dom, that self-obsessed moment of absolute despair unable to see anything but their own misfortunes until they retreat into their 'happy place'. Reaching out to the Grief-Seed seems to me to be like reaching out directly to a Soul gem separated from it's body. Ie the person is there... but they're insensate, because they literally have no senses, not body with which their Soul can express itself.


Also I'm kinda curious as to what the effect of creating a witch's barrier within a witch's barrier would be like.

Maybe we should try to investigate the connection between Sabrina's own body and soul-gem or try something similar so that she has a better understanding of the connection between these two things.

One thing I'm fairly sure of though, a Witch won't just 'revert' to a magical girl... even if fixed... I'm pretty sure we'd be looking at a completely new type of entity either way.
 
Maybe the incubators recycle the empty grief seeds that they create into new soul gems, by a process that basically gives the grief seed a new cover, and the witch a new identity, and soul to reside in.
 
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